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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:56 am 
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Maybe Superbia and Hubris Unsinkable fell off the edge

.. well Superbia anyway. I guess that Hubris Unsinkable was in known waters

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:18 am 
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    Wild theorising: the 'Hubris Triangle' isn't just the Erf-ed Bermuda Triangle...it IS the Bermuda Triangle. As in, what vanishes in the Bermuda Triangle can arrive on Erf...and vice versa.

    More likely theory: we're going to meet a Crackern.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:40 am 
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    Going a bit meta here. At the end of book 2, Parson wanted to find sides to ally VS Charlie. So far we have seen a side with someone who thinks not unlike Parson in the Crush story, and survivors of a Charlie move in the Digdoug story. Perhaps these side stories are being set in motion now as potential allies for Parson, to be weaved into the narrative alongside others. Now we have a naval setup that might bring new mechanics to Parson's attention, particularly if Charlie is (directly or indirectly) involved here.

    And knowing Parson, he would not disregard naval power once he is aware that it is a thing as well. Even if his side lacks much in the way of coastal bits (yet). And presuming he hasn't started to bone up on it already. He did do theorycrafting with Jack involving land based ships already, so he is aware of some degree of naval combat within the world.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:21 am 
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    The Pink Warlord wrote:
    Jillian was in Lord Crush, Charlie in Digdoug. Is there anyone or anything important who deserves a prequel story? Maybe one of the Breakaway colonies will become a side we know, like Jetstone or Transilvito or Gobwin Knob?

    Well, there are pirate ships wandering around, and Seaworld both has a bunch of colonies and is stretched to protect them.

    I always thought Haffaton's founding was kind of odd (spun off its original side after conquering a barbarian-held capital site), but this seems like a possible way that could have come about - the future city of Haffaton might currently be the capital of one of Seaworld's colonies, and its fall might have been to a pirate ship after much of its defence had been stripped away for the attack on Anchorbar.


    On a slightly different topic, it occurs to me that Haffaton's parent side was never mentioned after spinning off. I wonder if there are distance penalties to Loyalty that would have allowed Lex Doothis to spin off independent of the wishes of his parent side... and if Seaworld's fleets could similarly spin off themselves if far away enough from home.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:21 am 
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    peteratjet wrote:
    Maybe Superbia and Hubris Unsinkable fell off the edge.


    +1 this to infinite. It could very well be unknown waters, for the text only says, “They sailed for where the city of Anchorbar was supposed to be located.” “No new land was charted on the voyage.” Who cares about Cosmic Horror, now I want an Edgar Allan Poe story in Erfworld!

    Beeskee wrote:
    Forecastle could get out there only to find out that the Anchormen think Seaworld is making THEIR fleets vanish.


    You’re awesome.

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    Beeskee wrote:
    Do heirs have 2 masts? ;)

    We dont know, we havent seen an heir with their pants off yet....


    … and now we know why Jillian was so bent on rescuing Ansom!!




    /duck

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:08 am 
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    sdub wrote:
    I wonder if the side was able to hire a caster that could shed some light on what happened to the first two fleets? Sort of like a reverse predictamancer.

    I don't know if that's within the purview of discipline, but it would be powerful.


    "You will have lost two fleets by now. I so predict it!" No, actually that does not seem to help.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:13 am 
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    Man in the Mists wrote:
    Even scarier thought, what if it's a tamed Kraken?
    Another thing I've been tossing around in my mind, what if a naval power figured out a way to make submarines?

    A tamed kraken is a submarine. But otherwise, the only way in Erf to invent a new kind of unit that will pop is to use a mancer linkup. It remains to be seen if Stupid-world skills can be used to reforge existing units into something else, or if Parson can teach a twoll how to build something that never existed in Erf before.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:23 am 
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    I dunno about "never existed" but Zhopa had certainly never heard of a "peekneek" basket. :D S2009:23

    I'm under the impression that a large vehicle might require more than just twolls to construct, however. Or at least a LOT of twolls. I certainly don't think a single twoll can whip up a ship in a few minutes out of a basket. :D

    What I'd like to know is, if units that can construct something like a ship do exist, how long does it take them? Can they make a ship in less than 90 days? Can you conjure up a fleet in a day by hiring a bunch of Dirtamancers or popping a ton of units with the Fabrication Special?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:06 pm 
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    Vreejack wrote:
    But otherwise, the only way in Erf to invent a new kind of unit that will pop is to use a mancer linkup.

    On a bit of a tangent from that, I'm not sure ships are actually units - they didn't repair at the start of turn, since it's mentioned after the battle with Anchorman how fast they could make it to their destination "in their current state of repairs."

    When Tommy was explaining stuff to Wanda near the beginning of Book 0, he told her:
    Quote:
    Siege towers are items, not units. They pop as equipment like armor. Like this axe. When you pop a siege tower, you get 8 digger units and a rolling tower.


    When Jillian was escaping from Haffaton, she mentions a few bits about ships as well:
    Quote:
    Without a crew to command, her choice of boat was narrowed down to two. There was a small sailboat that could handle open water. If she wanted to try her hand at sailing to safety, that would be the way to go. But home was not over the ocean. Home was inland, and that meant heading up the river in the paddlewheel barge.

    She really wanted to try the thing, anyway. You rarely saw self-powered vehicles—only a Turnamancer could make one—but they were incredibly useful, and highly valued as trade items. They had many of the benefits of constructed units like golems, but they functioned as items. Stealing this one should put it under her command. She thought.


    So the Turnamancy paddlewheel boat was definitely an item, and if she could steal it, the sailboat probably was too. The mentioned reason she couldn't steal the larger boats was lack of a crew rather than any other mechanical reason, and with the siege tower example of popped "units" that are actually items, I wonder if the larger ships also count as items instead of units. If they were, presumably, like the siege towers, their crew complement would pop with them.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:35 pm 
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    Gregoriownd wrote:
    And knowing Parson, he would not disregard naval power once he is aware that it is a thing as well. Even if his side lacks much in the way of coastal bits (yet). And presuming he hasn't started to bone up on it already. He did do theorycrafting with Jack involving land based ships already, so he is aware of some degree of naval combat within the world.

    An airship would be pretty useful. All he would probably need for a landship or an airship is a Weirdomancer and preferably a Turnamancer.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:23 pm 
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    Free Radical wrote:
    Vreejack wrote:
    But otherwise, the only way in Erf to invent a new kind of unit that will pop is to use a mancer linkup.

    On a bit of a tangent from that, I'm not sure ships are actually units - they didn't repair at the start of turn, since it's mentioned after the battle with Anchorman how fast they could make it to their destination "in their current state of repairs."

    When Tommy was explaining stuff to Wanda near the beginning of Book 0, he told her:
    Quote:
    Siege towers are items, not units. They pop as equipment like armor. Like this axe. When you pop a siege tower, you get 8 digger units and a rolling tower.


    When Jillian was escaping from Haffaton, she mentions a few bits about ships as well:
    Quote:
    Without a crew to command, her choice of boat was narrowed down to two. There was a small sailboat that could handle open water. If she wanted to try her hand at sailing to safety, that would be the way to go. But home was not over the ocean. Home was inland, and that meant heading up the river in the paddlewheel barge.

    She really wanted to try the thing, anyway. You rarely saw self-powered vehicles—only a Turnamancer could make one—but they were incredibly useful, and highly valued as trade items. They had many of the benefits of constructed units like golems, but they functioned as items. Stealing this one should put it under her command. She thought.


    So the Turnamancy paddlewheel boat was definitely an item, and if she could steal it, the sailboat probably was too. The mentioned reason she couldn't steal the larger boats was lack of a crew rather than any other mechanical reason, and with the siege tower example of popped "units" that are actually items, I wonder if the larger ships also count as items instead of units. If they were, presumably, like the siege towers, their crew complement would pop with them.
    It's for this reason that I question whether Parson could invent a submarine or other such things. We haven't really seen units learn new skills. Parson lacked the archery special, so he'd have a very minute chance of actually hitting a target. Would units need the seafaring special to direct a sub? Or because there are no subs, would a unit be able to learn to use it like an ordinary object? Or because there is no submarining special, would units jut be out of luck and be unable to learn to use it?

    Is Parson, by merit of being from another world, able to learn new skills? Or is he just as restricted as every other unit of Erf?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:41 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Is Parson, by merit of being from another world, able to learn new skills? Or is he just as restricted as every other unit of Erf?

    First Intermission 6
    Quote:
    "One in about 5400, it says. So, what, I'd be acting like a defending archery unit then? Even though I don't have archery as a special? Any of us could throw a brick and hit an enemy down there, even though we aren't archers?"

    Sizemore shrugged. "If we had bricks."

    So anyone with something to throw or shoot could be an archery unit. They'd just have to have the archery special to have any real chance of hitting a target. But maybe something like Luckamancy could be used to change those odds? Parson leaned forward and squinted at the tiny figure of Stanley, still mounted on his dwagon. "Good to know."

    Maybe knowledge specials are like plugins. You can work your way around not having it or even create your own version.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:46 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Free Radical wrote:
    Vreejack wrote:
    But otherwise, the only way in Erf to invent a new kind of unit that will pop is to use a mancer linkup.

    On a bit of a tangent from that, I'm not sure ships are actually units - they didn't repair at the start of turn, since it's mentioned after the battle with Anchorman how fast they could make it to their destination "in their current state of repairs."

    When Tommy was explaining stuff to Wanda near the beginning of Book 0, he told her:
    Quote:
    Siege towers are items, not units. They pop as equipment like armor. Like this axe. When you pop a siege tower, you get 8 digger units and a rolling tower.


    When Jillian was escaping from Haffaton, she mentions a few bits about ships as well:
    Quote:
    Without a crew to command, her choice of boat was narrowed down to two. There was a small sailboat that could handle open water. If she wanted to try her hand at sailing to safety, that would be the way to go. But home was not over the ocean. Home was inland, and that meant heading up the river in the paddlewheel barge.

    She really wanted to try the thing, anyway. You rarely saw self-powered vehicles—only a Turnamancer could make one—but they were incredibly useful, and highly valued as trade items. They had many of the benefits of constructed units like golems, but they functioned as items. Stealing this one should put it under her command. She thought.


    So the Turnamancy paddlewheel boat was definitely an item, and if she could steal it, the sailboat probably was too. The mentioned reason she couldn't steal the larger boats was lack of a crew rather than any other mechanical reason, and with the siege tower example of popped "units" that are actually items, I wonder if the larger ships also count as items instead of units. If they were, presumably, like the siege towers, their crew complement would pop with them.
    It's for this reason that I question whether Parson could invent a submarine or other such things. We haven't really seen units learn new skills. Parson lacked the archery special, so he'd have a very minute chance of actually hitting a target. Would units need the seafaring special to direct a sub? Or because there are no subs, would a unit be able to learn to use it like an ordinary object? Or because there is no submarining special, would units jut be out of luck and be unable to learn to use it?

    Is Parson, by merit of being from another world, able to learn new skills? Or is he just as restricted as every other unit of Erf?


    Or maybe the Titans would add the Special to the game rules at the moment the skill was needed? Or retconjure it so it was always in?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:36 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Is Parson, by merit of being from another world, able to learn new skills? Or is he just as restricted as every other unit of Erf?

    First Intermission 6
    Quote:
    "One in about 5400, it says. So, what, I'd be acting like a defending archery unit then? Even though I don't have archery as a special? Any of us could throw a brick and hit an enemy down there, even though we aren't archers?"

    Sizemore shrugged. "If we had bricks."

    So anyone with something to throw or shoot could be an archery unit. They'd just have to have the archery special to have any real chance of hitting a target. But maybe something like Luckamancy could be used to change those odds? Parson leaned forward and squinted at the tiny figure of Stanley, still mounted on his dwagon. "Good to know."

    Maybe knowledge specials are like plugins. You can work your way around not having it or even create your own version.

    I already talked about that update. But it doesn't address my question. It only answers if a unit like him would be able to hit an invading unit with a ranged attack from the tower. Probably not.

    But that is Parson at that moment in time. Nonathletic and nerdy. Erf units have skills via specials. They don't learn new abilities as far as we know. But in Stupid World, practice makes perfect. Could Parson practice throwing bricks and improve his odds? Or will those always be his odds because he lacks the archery special?

    Casters pop with knowledge of their discipline, but can learn other disciplines with effort and practice.

    Parson loses weight, and he attributes it to climbing stairs. That's a change to his Signamancy that doesn't really line up with how other Signamancy works in Erf, as far as we've seen.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:58 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Erf units have skills via specials. They don't learn new abilities as far as we know. But in Stupid World, practice makes perfect. Could Parson practice throwing bricks and improve his odds? Or will those always be his odds because he lacks the archery special?
    I see no way to doubt that Parson would improve his aim with practice, and the same goes for Erfworlders. Erfworlders are people too, even the least important of them. We've seen this pretty clearly with Mary Sagitarri in B2T55. She wasn't like a machine for shooting arrows; she had her own thoughts and feelings and therefore if she practiced doing something else she would surely get better at whatever she practiced, just as a caster can learn other disciplines.

    If Erfworlders never do that then it must be because their lives are too short or they never try. Mary Sagitarri might hope to live for several hundred turns, but that's only a few years and she probably couldn't hope to find the time to train herself to be as good at stabbing as she was at archery, and that's if the idea of trying to be stabber even entered her mind.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:28 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    But that is Parson at that moment in time. Nonathletic and nerdy. Erf units have skills via specials. They don't learn new abilities as far as we know. But in Stupid World, practice makes perfect. Could Parson practice throwing bricks and improve his odds? Or will those always be his odds because he lacks the archery special?


    My guess is that he can train himself, just like any other unit can. And, training increases your ability to do things, just like leveling does. And, theoretically, part of Parson's abilities might include the ability to gain a new Special, much like Archons gain new specials over time as they level. But, more likely, Parson will just find he has no aptitude for archery and training in it is a waste of time compared to his apparent aptitude with sword fighting.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:34 pm 
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    http://www.erfworld.com/2011/11/inner-p ... isode-012/

    Wanda mentions training with a staff in this update. In a later update she mentions getting the hang of the staff when she uses it to attack the garrison's siege defense.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:30 am 
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    I get the sense that anything we could realistically accomplish in "the real world" will also have comparative mechanics in Erfworld. The kicker is that the denizens of Erfworld have the "table top strategy game" mindset so ingrained into their psyche that the idea of "retraining infantry into archers" or teaching a warlord "seafaring" is so far outside their scope of ideas (not to mention difficult with the ingame mechanics) that it's simply not done. In the real world, it would be difficult to train say an infantryman into a helicopter pilot, but depending on the person's natural aptitude it is possible. The difference here is choice. In our world an infantryman, given enough ambition, if he/she wanted it bad enough, could put in requests for transfers, study for aptitude tests, and do their best to become a helicopter pilot. Of course there are insurmountable barriers that he/she may not overcome (i.e. eyesight, natural ability) but if he has the "right stuff" (good eyesight, good enough reflexes, good enough spatial awareness) then an infantryman can be retrained into a helicopter pilot.

    I predict that the same applies to Erfworld. It IS possible for an infantryman to be trained to gain the archery specialty. It will be difficult, hard, costly, and highly dependent on the individual's talents and proclivities, but I predict that it can be done and that there are mechanics to support this that are "hidden" within the system.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:31 am 
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    Dystopianman wrote:
    I get the sense that anything we could realistically accomplish in "the real world" will also have comparative mechanics in Erfworld. The kicker is that the denizens of Erfworld have the "table top strategy game" mindset so ingrained into their psyche that the idea of "retraining infantry into archers" or teaching a warlord "seafaring" is so far outside their scope of ideas (not to mention difficult with the ingame mechanics) that it's simply not done. In the real world, it would be difficult to train say an infantryman into a helicopter pilot, but depending on the person's natural aptitude it is possible. The difference here is choice. In our world an infantryman, given enough ambition, if he/she wanted it bad enough, could put in requests for transfers, study for aptitude tests, and do their best to become a helicopter pilot. Of course there are insurmountable barriers that he/she may not overcome (i.e. eyesight, natural ability) but if he has the "right stuff" (good eyesight, good enough reflexes, good enough spatial awareness) then an infantryman can be retrained into a helicopter pilot.

    I predict that the same applies to Erfworld. It IS possible for an infantryman to be trained to gain the archery specialty. It will be difficult, hard, costly, and highly dependent on the individual's talents and proclivities, but I predict that it can be done and that there are mechanics to support this that are "hidden" within the system.


    It wouldn't shock me if it was even fairly easy for units to retrain specialties, it just isn't often done because units aren't seen as people with thoughts and ambitions like they are in Stupid World.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:33 am 
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    Damn. Rob was able to get to introducing his version of England before I could. But then again, his version is involved in Maritime combat and mine is involved in... I should probably stop talking.

    But there won't me much overlap in the Erf Bastardization of the origin of the parodies, so it should be fine.

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