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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:11 pm 
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I also don't like Sizemore's whining. Everyone in Erfworld is basically popped to wage war and I'm sure many of them don't like it, but they'll still kill for their side - and so will Parson and Sizemore. It's absurd to hate someone for doing their Duty.

Still, that doesn't mean Sizemore's evil, in whatever sense are little human minds dare to use this word. To hate wars doesn't mean to be the ultimate charity, especially because it'd just attract caster hobos who'd suck him dry and drink themselves to incapacitation on Nickel's (and similar casters') stuff and eventually croak from it. In that sense, it's better to give a lot of your money to a Grand Abbie Hippiemancer, someone who could use them for the cause you support.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:11 pm 
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    Wild speculation: Posbreak is alive, but Charlie made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Charlie recruited him to be the new Chief Warlord of Jetstone, fulfilling Tramennis' needs as outlined here:
    http://www.erfworld.com/2013/11/epilogu ... nes-diary/

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:29 pm 
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    Remember that Sizemore isn't "free". Duty may prevent him from rescuing barbarian casters who may subsequently be hired by his side's enemies.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:30 pm 
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    Dunbar wrote:
    The whole concept of Rands has been bugging me. Clearly they must have some independent means of being created; if some caster discipline was making them you'd run into the problem of being able to literally print money. If they only had value for trading between casters in the MK then their could be some kind of control on them (an MK ruling council of some sort, like a real world government controls its own treasury), but then there would be no reason not to print enough so everyone can avoid disbanding.

    Having the world spawn Rands much like it spawns Schmuckers makes more sense, though what the mechanism is isn't clear.


    Well, they're called "Rands", which in the context of a special currency used by an exclusive enclave chosen because moneymancers couldn't manipulate it, mean it's probably a reference to Ayn Rand and the gold coins used for trade in Galt's Gulch from Atlas Shrugged.

    So, that would imply that the supply comes from a pirate who's doing the reverse Robin Hood thing and raiding ships stocked with relief supplies and giving the loot to the wealthy casters in proportion to his own estimate of how much the world owes them.

    Or alternatively, the Magic kingdom itself might require some form of ongoing maintenance and spawns rands as payment to the casters who perform that maintenance, market forces then see them distributed from there as the castors who maintain the magic kingdom need goods and services provided by other casters.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:07 pm 
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    deminet wrote:
    Wild speculation: Posbreak is alive, but Charlie made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Charlie recruited him to be the new Chief Warlord of Jetstone, fulfilling Tramennis' needs as outlined here:
    http://www.erfworld.com/2013/11/epilogu ... nes-diary/

    Didn't the Archons specifically say they had never had a Warlord before, so they didn't really know how to react to having one in Gobwin Knob?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:52 pm 
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    Godzfirefly wrote:
    Didn't the Archons specifically say they had never had a Warlord before, so they didn't really know how to react to having one in Gobwin Knob?


    We don't really know when Digdoug's story is: I'm assuming for this speculation that it ends slightly after book 2. Tramennis is looking for a warlord with lateral thinking, and Charlie is looking to prove to Jetstone that he's worth employing (and keep them pitted against Parson). Charlie spies Posbrake, who is doing all manner of lateral thinking, and decides to recruit him for Tramennis. It wouldn't involve Charlie having a warlord (I doubt he intends to have any, ever).

    That gives us the opportunity for a Dove-Posbrake reunion, and if Parson and Diddoug join forces, a very awkward Posbrake-Diddoug reunion.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:48 pm 
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    deminet wrote:
    Wild speculation: Posbreak is alive, but Charlie made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Charlie recruited him to be the new Chief Warlord of Jetstone, fulfilling Tramennis' needs as outlined here:
    http://www.erfworld.com/2013/11/epilogu ... nes-diary/

    A good reminder of the type of notebook Parson needs to invest in. Or, if he's a Signmancer, maybe he can link with Maggie and make the Eyebooks secure. And honestly, references to Signamancy have been popping up so much recently, I would be really surprised if he wasn't one at this point.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:42 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    And honestly, references to Signamancy have been popping up so much recently, I would be really surprised if he wasn't one at this point.
    I'm not sure if it would really mean anything to say that Parson is a Signamancer. People call Parson a warlord, but he's not really a warlord like the other warlords because he came with none of the knowledge that all warlords have and he's been slowly learning to become a warlord. Even if Parson somehow has the technical designation of Signamancer right now, he still wouldn't know any Signamancy. He would have to learn that just as he had to learn to be a warlord, and he would still probably be missing whatever extra senses come with being a Signamancer.

    Being a caster of a discipline isn't just being assigned a label and thereby gaining authority over the corresponding kind of magic. We've seen life from the perspective of enough casters to know that casters are able to do magic because they have knowledge of truths underlying the structure of reality and they exploit that knowledge to make magic happen. So when Janis declared that Parson was a Hippiemancer in B1P140, she must have been referring to some Stupidworld knowledge that Parson has which is like the knowledge that goes with some discipline of Hippiemancy, something that doesn't seem magical to us but is technically magic in Erfworld. I'm pretty sure that it's not Flower Power since Parson doesn't seem like much of a gardener. That leaves only two options, but I don't think we know enough about those disciplines to guess. If we ever get an episode or a text update showing us the world from the perspective of a Signamancer or a Date-a-mancer, I expect it will be immediately obvious which one is Parson's discipline.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:46 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    And honestly, references to Signamancy have been popping up so much recently, I would be really surprised if he wasn't one at this point.
    I'm not sure if it would really mean anything to say that Parson is a Signamancer. People call Parson a warlord, but he's not really a warlord like the other warlords because he came with none of the knowledge that all warlords have and he's been slowly learning to become a warlord. Even if Parson somehow has the technical designation of Signamancer right now, he still wouldn't know any Signamancy. He would have to learn that just as he had to learn to be a warlord, and he would still probably be missing whatever extra senses come with being a Signamancer.

    Being a caster of a discipline isn't just being assigned a label and thereby gaining authority over the corresponding kind of magic. We've seen life from the perspective of enough casters to know that casters are able to do magic because they have knowledge of truths underlying the structure of reality and they exploit that knowledge to make magic happen. So when Janis declared that Parson was a Hippiemancer in B1P140, she must have been referring to some Stupidworld knowledge that Parson has which is like the knowledge that goes with some discipline of Hippiemancy, something that doesn't seem magical to us but is technically magic in Erfworld. I'm pretty sure that it's not Flower Power since Parson doesn't seem like much of a gardener. That leaves only two options, but I don't think we know enough about those disciplines to guess. If we ever get an episode or a text update showing us the world from the perspective of a Signamancer or a Date-a-mancer, I expect it will be immediately obvious which one is Parson's discipline.


    We're never seen any confirmation on that. A Warlord has the ability to command other troops, and give a bonus to them. They also seem to have higher stats than the average unit. I can't recall a warlord unit popping with any extra knowledge in the comic; though as a counterexample Count Topotato apparently didn't know that he couldn't swim.

    As far as casters goes, we've seen them make objects out of nothing but juice. And other units with juice never seem to learn spells outside of their spell list (Archons). Granted we're not loaded with tons of examples, as the only other type I can think of are possibly Giants, but that seems like information that would spread. Or at least that the Archons would have told Parson about.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:28 pm 
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    Dunbar wrote:
    I guess it comes back to the question of where rands come from. Sizemore is able to throw them around, so somehow he has a lot. It just feels wrong for characters like Janis and Sizemore, who are represented as truly caring souls, to just let other casters die like that.

    Something to keep in mind is that giving a Rand to another caster does not destroy the Rand. The only "throwing around" I can recall by Janis and Sizemore was Sizemore's payment to Janis, and Janis' offer to the thinkamancers. If the thinkamancers happen to be equally (or more) likely to circulate funds in the direction of Short Pier beggars than Sizemore and Janis, then neither choice actually reduced beggars' likelihood of being saved.

    Perhaps Sizemore sees the Short Pier beggars as being a steady-state condition. A Rand withheld today means a caster saved tomorrow, so why go out of your way to check if a beggar needs your Rand today? Also, donation to apparently useless beggars is not the only option for using Rands altruistically, and those other needs are also a steady-state condition, as seen by the temporary nature of DigDoug's soil improvements.

    It seems harder to justify Sizemore risking that a large sum of potentially life-saving Rands would evaporate into thin air if he croaked during his duties for GK, if Loyalty and Duty don't stop him from being generous with Janis...though I suppose then we're back to my first argument, that by effectively donating Rands to Janis, he's keeping them in the MK where they can do some good, especially given that he seems to (correctly or incorrectly) view Janis as generous.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:55 pm 
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    Let's also recall that Sizemore, despite all his personal delusions and misguided efforts, is not a Good Guy (tm). Despite his conscious desires and statements, he is deep down a rather selfish person with a pretty narrow world-view. Obviously he is not deliberately stingy, but perhaps he has his philanthropic "blinders" on and avoids thinking about Short Pier, or believes that other actions are more helpful.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:12 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    (...) Sizemore (...) is deep down a rather selfish person with a pretty narrow world-view.


    Evidence please?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:44 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    In any case, I just remembered that this episode burns that idea and scatters its ashes: http://www.erfworld.com/2014/04/digdoug-episode-18/

    Creen - who is already the heir to Delkey - says that Posbrake must appoint him the heir to Homekey (at Delkey's expense) after he (Creen) turns. So heir status is specific to one's side, and doesn't transfer. Period.


    THIS STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE.

    I did a word search for the word "heir" for every post in the Digdoug updates. Aside from a LOT of hits on the word "their," heir is only mentioned in the context of Posbrakes obligation to pop a royal heir, and and Delkeys reaction to the way he broke the spirit of that contract while keeping to the letter.

    No mention of anyone's status as an heir is mentioned except for the son Posbrake traded away. Creen is not mentioned as being an heir, neither is Posbrake.

    Remember popping a unit as an heir takes a several turn surcharge. And you really only need one heir. Remember Jetstone had several sons popped as heirs, and all died, and the time spend popping them as heirs was wasted. A Shmucker rich side like Delkey might just decide to keep the money to appoint an heir/additional heirs in reserve, and use them to appoint the Royal most likely to survive to be heir only at the moment the capital/ruler is threatened.

    tl;dr there is no evidence presented in story that Creen was popped as an heir.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:54 pm 
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    Huh. That seems to be correct. As far as I can see, Creen is referred to only as Prince or Chief Warlord. I must have gotten the idea that he was heir just from his manner and style. And the fact that Delkey is so keen on Homekey having an heir, it would be odd if they didn't have one.

    I was wrong on that fact, so I retract the argument.

    But I still think there's pretty good evidence that heir status is specific to the side that gave it to you. Like overlord status. Jillian was an heir, and Olive wanted her to turn. Would Olive have welcomed a rival heir? I think not. Banhammer was a king, that is, an overlord. Would he have become overlord of Haffaton if he had turned as planned? Obviously not. And in any case we know that Posbrake no longer had an heir after trading him to another side.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:37 am 
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    [quote="Xarx"]Huh. That seems to be correct. As far as I can see, Creen is referred to only as Prince or Chief Warlord. I must have gotten the idea that he was heir just from his manner and style. And the fact that Delkey is so keen on Homekey having an heir, it would be odd if they didn't have one.
    /quote]

    Remember that Posbrake was not just lacking an heir, be was lacking anyone else suitable to Delkey as an heir (ie Royalty) Also, HE TRADED AWAY HIS SON, that is the King of Delkey's grandson. Which was also a sticking point. Right or wrong, Delkey believes in both Family, and the supremacy of Royalty. I personally think Posbrake might have gotten away with saving a few turns by popping his son without the Heir special, because there was no current threats against the capital, if that was in fact true at the time. Because then there would have been someone acceptable to Delkey to name as heir if they could prove the side was in fact in danger. Breaking the Letter of the contract while keeping to the Letter, as it were.

    The problem was Posbrake and his family had differing beliefs, to such a degree that he seemed genuinely surprised at the fallout trading his son caused. Also the fact that betraying the Letter of a contract carries enumerated penalties, while breaking the spirit does not. He is not the first person the assume that no pretermitted cost to the same as no cost.

    Okay, this became a digression about why Parson was wondering would happen re: Ossomers Heir status. Spoilered for length.
    Spoiler: show
    Remember Parson wondering what would happen should Stately die re the Jetstone side re: Decrypted Ossomer. And he presumably has already picked the brain of Maggie, Wanda, Sizemore etc. regarding the normal rules of succession. That means one of two things:

    1. There is something in the regular known Rules of Succession that leaves the situation in doubt, and/or...

    2. Parson is looking for an Order of Operations exploit. Remember there are four main ways to change your status in regards to a side.
    a. Croaking
    b. Disbanding
    c. Turning/being Turned to another side
    d. going Barbarian
    At the beginning of that turn, Ossomer was the ONLY Jetstone Heir.
    Assuming you can only inherit overlord status of a side you are currently part of, there is a potential loophole there. Looking at the physics of Erfworld as "code" there is a question of when and where the invalidation because you changed sides happens. Of the above, Turning, and Going Barbarian are the only ones you live through, and are likely to have checks there. Ossomer was never Turned or went Barbarian, be bypassed those in becoming a Gobwin knob unit by being Croaked and Decrypted. There is already a rule that Croaked units cannot rule a side, so probably is no additional status check there when a unit croaks. Decryption is a very rare phenomenon. From video games I know the rarer the feature occurs, the less rigorously coded it is, and the more likely you can find an exploit. So since Ossomer just switched sides without going through the normal method of doing so, there may be something you can take advantage of.

    In regards to the heir status, I do not think it makes you the heir apparent of any side you join, but I do think it has benefits, and I do not think it is lost. I think Heir status is a Permanent upgrade like being a Warlord, and is not lost (and cannot be lost) by changing sides/going barbarian. I think there is a similar relationship as follows; Heir_Special:Heir_to_the_Throne_of_a_Side::Warlord_Special:Chief_Warlord_of_a_Side

    Only a Warlord/Commander can be designated Chief Warlord of a side. You can make anyone Chief Warlord of a side, but this requires promoting them, and even if they change sides the promotion stays. And the other side does not need to pay to promote them again to install them as Chief Warlord.

    Similarly, I think there is a Order of Succession, that only can be filled by those with those with "Heir Status" for lack of a better term.

    We know there can be more than one heir for a side at the same time, from all the Sons of Jetstone.

    We know the Ruler can prioritize the Heirs, due to Caesar being Heir, and the Don popping another heir to take priority, and ideally NOT planning to disband/trade Caesar in his inner monologue.

    Also, we know that when Banhammar lost the capital and all units went barbarian, then regained a Capital all units regained the side without needing to Turn back to Faq and have that turning accepted in the presence of the Ruler/Chief Warlord, And Jillian did not have to be promoted to Heir after becoming barbarian.

    I SUSPECT Heir_Status is the Fourth Tier class of ascending unit types, in the promotion order of:
    Normal Unit (Stabber, Infantry, etc.) ===>
    Elite Unit (Knight, Archon)
    Commander Unit (Warlord, Caster)
    Ruling Unit (Heir, Overlord, King)

    I SUSPECT Heir_Status exempts you from disbanding in the field or going "Neutral" in a city if your side ends. If there are Coup mechanics, it might also let you perform one to take over a side without that side ending.

    I AM WONDERING if an Heir can be omitted entirely from his sides Order of Succession, or merely bumped to the bottom. Caesars situation will be telling here.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:48 am 
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    So essentially, once popped or promoted as an heir, the potential to be heir is always there. If traded away to another side, the unit would still have heir potential, and would have to be appointed as such, but it would not cost smuckers to do so. This about what you are saying, bpzinn?

    It's an interesting idea. But I think it's ultimately incorrect. Gobwin Knob was lacking an heir, and Parson saw this as a big problem. If Ansom could have been appointed heir at no cost, wouldn't you think they would have done that?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:53 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    So essentially, once popped or promoted as an heir, the potential to be heir is always there. If traded away to another side, the unit would still have heir potential, and would have to be appointed as such, but it would not cost smuckers to do so. This about what you are saying, bpzinn?

    It's an interesting idea. But I think it's ultimately incorrect. Gobwin Knob was lacking an heir, and Parson saw this as a big problem. If Ansom could have been appointed heir at no cost, wouldn't you think they would have done that?


    Why does Don want a new Heir to replace Caesar, when he is a kickass warlord, and why was Gobwin knob redecorated in (vain)glorious leader style? Because just because a ruler can appoint someone as leader does not mean they think it is a good idea to do so. Don has alienated Caesar enough at this point that leaving him as Heir makes it more likely he will attempt a coup. Which may be bad for the side, and it definitely bad for the Don. Stanley specifically has some insecurity problems the Capital makeover was done to address. Even from my viewpoint, of the way Wanda works, appointing Ansom as heir might increase the odds Stanley would face an attempted takeover from faction Wanda, more than it safeguards the side.

    If Creen had succeeded in the regime change, I doubt he would make Posebrake an Heir in the foreseeable future, even if someone tried to pay him to do so, because of conflicts it would make more likely to occur.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:10 am 
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    bpzinn wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    So essentially, once popped or promoted as an heir, the potential to be heir is always there. If traded away to another side, the unit would still have heir potential, and would have to be appointed as such, but it would not cost smuckers to do so. This about what you are saying, bpzinn?

    It's an interesting idea. But I think it's ultimately incorrect. Gobwin Knob was lacking an heir, and Parson saw this as a big problem. If Ansom could have been appointed heir at no cost, wouldn't you think they would have done that?


    Why does Don want a new Heir to replace Caesar, when he is a kickass warlord, and why was Gobwin knob redecorated in (vain)glorious leader style? Because just because a ruler can appoint someone as leader does not mean they think it is a good idea to do so. Don has alienated Caesar enough at this point that leaving him as Heir makes it more likely he will attempt a coup. Which may be bad for the side, and it definitely bad for the Don. Stanley specifically has some insecurity problems the Capital makeover was done to address. Even from my viewpoint, of the way Wanda works, appointing Ansom as heir might increase the odds Stanley would face an attempted takeover from faction Wanda, more than it safeguards the side.

    If Creen had succeeded in the regime change, I doubt he would make Posebrake an Heir in the foreseeable future, even if someone tried to pay him to do so, because of conflicts it would make more likely to occur.

    I don't buy it. Nothing is stopping Don from just removing Caesar as heir by this thought. It seems pretty clear that Don needs a replacement before he can remove Caesar. And Don wants to replace Caesar because he's being pressured to uphold the Royal ideal, and Caesar is not royal. That tension lead to the rift between them.

    My point isn't that Stanley would appoint him. It's that Parson would have entertained it as an option. He would have mentioned Stanley being unwilling to make Ansom his heir. Parson clearly thought about the subject of inheritance quite a bit, so if they already had an heir at their disposal, Parson would have investigated that option. Since we've heard nothing of the sort, I think it's unlikely.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:20 am 
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    The real mistake Don is making IMO, is wanting to remove Caesar from Chief Warlord ship. A heir is supposed to be insurance against a decapitation strike. While it doesn't protect you it kills the motive. But that doesn't work if croaking you removes an uber-chief warlord from the picture or you need to kill the heir to get to the king. Caesar is a bad heir. Clearly the only option is to promote Benjamin and have him spend most of his time in the MK, at least when its not TVs turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 22
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:38 am 
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    arbo wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    (...) Sizemore (...) is deep down a rather selfish person with a pretty narrow world-view.
    Evidence please?
    The entirety of the comic. EVERYTHING he does has an undertone of "this is about me" angst to it, especially in Book 2. Killing is a perfectly normal part of Erfworld, unless he's the one doing it. Parson's strange tactics are fine, until it costs Sizemore his popularity. Golems are fine, until he has to see them in action.
    He is by no means a malicious person; merely extremely sheltered, naive, and immature. It's part of the whole comic theme, that neither side of the conflict are in any way really decent people. Though GK looks like the Bad Guys (tm) and the RCC looks like the Good Guys (tm), all individuals on both sides have striking personality flaws.

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    "I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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