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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
 Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Lilwik wrote:
Omnimancer wrote:
Yep, Goodminton popped chocolate from that point on.
All I see is that they had chocolate. The story doesn't say anything about popping chocolate. Maybe Wanda used Stuffamancy to create a supply of chocolate in the larder in the same way that she created the silver chocolate service and it was enough to supply them for many turns, or maybe they imported it, or maybe it's something else, but the point is that the story doesn't say where the chocolate comes from. The story certainly doesn't say that Signamancy is involved in creating the chocolate and I don't understand why we would guess that discipline when there are far more obvious candidates for producing chocolate such as Changemancy, Flower Power, and Moneymancy.


What are you talking about? You said it was unlikely that the chocolate service set that appeared when Wanda upgraded the tower was associated with chocolate to drink popping in the city. A few episodes later, Wanda drinks chocolate. By far the most likely scenario is that the service set popping is indicative of the cities ability to pop chocolate now. It's much less likely that Wanda spent time or juice to make a drink in the middle of a war. No one said anything about Signamancy until you brought it up randomly here.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:44 pm 
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    Larders seem to be a component of the city that pops food and some other materials, presumably through natural Moneymancy (since city hexes are all about Natural Moneymancy). When she altered the city, it would appear Wanda also altered slightly the foods that pop with her subconcious. It's a pretty straightforward concept, especially considering that the only reasonable way Goodminton could get Chocolate would be that way (Wanda didn't know any form of Stuffamancy at that time, they were at war with Haffaton so trade wouldn't be happening, and they didn't capture any Farms from Haffaton). Though I'm a little confused what this has to do with this update...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:49 pm 
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    This update has brought me back into the "Dove didn't intentionally want Homekey to fall" camp, mainly because of Digdoug's noticing her getting defensive about him in front of the other Carnies, not it might that this is necessary because he is the POV character but DD seems to notice things about Dove, he doesn't have all the info but he catches things. (mostly so we can draw our conclusions it wouldn't be a interesting mystery story if DD would be all "Dove is the best" or "Dove is a evil witch" 100% of the time)

    As far as I can see Dove is putting on a show for the other Carnies that her being DD's handler it's all business, but you wouldn't need to put on a show if that was the truth don't get me wrong Dove I think is profiting/will profit from DD's stay in the MK but I think there's more to that.

    I think what Dove is trying to hide is that DD is a suboptimal mark and she doesn't want the other carnies to know she's mixing business with philanthropy because that would mark her as a possible target.

    What I mean by DD is a suboptimal mark is that he's lost the will to live and no right thinking Carnie would devote so much time and energy just to keep a mark alive when there are perfectly good marks who will try to keep themselves alive.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:52 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    By far the most likely scenario is that the service set popping is indicative of the cities ability to pop chocolate now.
    No, the story explicitly tells us that it is indicative of the service set being in Wanda's mind. In the words of the story, it "crept in from her mind's eye." (B0E24)

    GWvsJohn wrote:
    It's much less likely that Wanda spent time or juice to make a drink in the middle of a war.
    She created a silver service set in the middle of a war, so apparently there's never a time when juice cannot be spent on luxuries. I expect that most Erfworlders spend most of their lives in the middle of a war, so they probably don't want to put life on hold just because of a war.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 5:03 pm 
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    The next episode clearly states that chocolate was "another new amenity of the tower", so it's likely something the city produces and not something Wanda spends juice on every turn.

    And the episode you quote makes it clear that the chocolate tea service was not an intentional addition, it simply occured during the upgrade process.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:28 pm 
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    Chocolate comes from the cocoa bean and contains drugs such as caffeine and theobromine.

    Wanda's side reached it's peak of success and wisdom before this new chocolate was available, then quickly went downhill and failed.

    Clearly it is addictive flower power drug added by the enemy to rot Goodminton from within. This is Charlie's secret that only Wanda knows and she forgot she knows, and with it any side even Charliecomm can be defeated... life is a little box of chocolates, just send them across hex boundary to archons before a battle and they won't be able to help themselves and then you win.

    Now you know too much, Charlie is going to get you!

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:04 pm 
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    (name here) wrote:
    TurtlesAWD wrote:
    In light of this update, I'm now leaning more towards what happened being a clever ploy by Posbrake than a last minute betrayal by Charlie. Although Charlie likes getting paid, I think he does have a soft spot for Carnies and carny-sympathetic sides. Burning bridges like those would be bad for future business, so even if his concerns are primarily mercenary, he would need a substantial immediate payout to risk it, in my opinion. Plus not even Dove seems to know what Charlie would have done to kill Posbrake with what he had available... though there is still the potential issue of a traitor.


    I'm also up for some kind of ploy by Posbrake, although not necessarily a survivable one for him personally. Charlie would love a chance to get paid five times.

    Though that can't entirely explain it; Posbrake would probably only go for a sacrifice play if he were really desperate, and things were looking pretty good. Unless he signed a long-term contract with someone he didn't tell anyone about and is cheating them on payment, I don't see how sacrificing himself or survivably doing a Side shell game would help. However, there is a fairly obvious explaination for how Charlie could back him into a corner by being able to overwhelm the city for real: he could bring more Archons. They can veil, after all, so there's nothing actually stopping him from having enough in the wings to obliterate the defenders without taking a single loss. Or, if his target is just Posbrake, all he needs to do is get around the protection spell. The straightforward if risky method would be to swarm him in melee combat now that his elite guard, chief warlord, and dirtamancer are no longer avaliable, but that would cost Archons and require Posbrake to not hunker down in the dungeons so they could get to him without needing to overrun the defenders. On the other hand,
    Quote:
    “And I shall have one spell upon me,” said Posbrake, with intense conviction. “A Carnymancy spell. A spell that breaks the rules. A spell that says, ‘this unit, for this turn, cannot be hit by any ranged attack.”
    [...]
    “I will stand in full view, daring those ranged flyers of his to take a shot at collecting Numloch’s bounty. If they do, then the Prediction is still fulfilled, and our financial worries are over.” The King picked up his coffee cup and sipped it. “So I sincerely hope he tries. He may indeed be a treacherous schemer, but he has no idea what a little Carnymancy can do to one’s best-laid plans.”


    Posbrake tempted fate pretty hard there, and Charlie knows Carnymancy better than Dove. He could easily have found a way around it. I see three:

    1. Definition of hit. If someone used a ranged attack with a rider or splash, it might "miss" but still inflict damage. Since Dove and Posbrake are pretty bright, I expect the spell also covers splash damage, but riders on a miss might be rare enough to slip their minds or it might have taken more juice and they figured the Archons couldn't croak him with rider effects.
    2. Indirect attack. If they bring down a building on top of or under him, that might not count as a ranged attack. They wouldn't have been terribly concerned about that when crafting the spell, because Charlie would need to drop the tower and croak lots of Homekey units to do that during the staged battle and probably make that a losing proposition.
    3. Foolamancy. It's not an attack, but used properly it could make him walk off a ledge.

    Finally, Charlie could have just gotten rid of the spell or used his own. Like with the Carnymancy card game, when you change the rules someone can change them again to make your change backfire. "For this turn, this unit takes damage on misses instead of hits."

    Or, if Charlie knew about Dove's spell, he could have cast Carnymancy on his Archons.

    "For this turn, this unit may make melee attacks from a distance."

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 12:22 pm 
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    Prodigial_Knight wrote:
    This update has brought me back into the "Dove didn't intentionally want Homekey to fall" camp, mainly because of Digdoug's noticing her getting defensive about him in front of the other Carnies, not it might that this is necessary because he is the POV character but DD seems to notice things about Dove, he doesn't have all the info but he catches things. (mostly so we can draw our conclusions it wouldn't be a interesting mystery story if DD would be all "Dove is the best" or "Dove is a evil witch" 100% of the time)

    As far as I can see Dove is putting on a show for the other Carnies that her being DD's handler it's all business, but you wouldn't need to put on a show if that was the truth don't get me wrong Dove I think is profiting/will profit from DD's stay in the MK but I think there's more to that.

    I think what Dove is trying to hide is that DD is a suboptimal mark and she doesn't want the other carnies to know she's mixing business with philanthropy because that would mark her as a possible target.

    What I mean by DD is a suboptimal mark is that he's lost the will to live and no right thinking Carnie would devote so much time and energy just to keep a mark alive when there are perfectly good marks who will try to keep themselves alive.


    I guess I'm in the "Dove wanted a side" camp. Actually, I think that would be the most powerful incentive for all of the Carnies in the MK. They're wanderers and vagabonds, so having upkeep, a home, and friends who trusted their abilities would be a huge dream for many imo. Also, their marks would go from being single people to entire other sides. So a side gives them everything they don't have, and "goes big" on what they were popped to do.

    I do think DD's current situation is terrible. He is an extremely valuable caster for the MK, but his route there has removed his ability to either see it or use it effectively. He literally could create upkeep for a lot of people, given time, and the Carnies would be excellent backers / first customers for that purpose. If I were DD, I'd have asked Dove to be my manager ASAP, thus gaining support for the short term and a long-term ally who knew the tricks of having a trade.

    Re whether Dove is wise to keep working with DD, I actually don't see that she has any other marks to work. And I do credit her with some loyalty / friendly feelings for DD, who is the last survivor of the side she almost belonged to. She also must know how valuable DD is in the MK, so I am guessing she would be willing to work with him for the long term.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:55 pm 
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    It's also interesting to note that at least Jojo was serving Unaroyal without any problems in fact Bea gave him trouble for wasting so much juice on Sylvia so apparently she find applications of Carnymancy useful (or she wanted him to use juice on air defence/scrolls) and he was considered too valuable to be sent with Sylvia to reinforce Ansom and the RCC.

    So a Carny can have a sucesfull long term gig with a Side.

    Looking back at Book 1 it seems a little convenient that among all the forces the RCC sent there wasn't at least one caster, Ossomer even taunted Ansom that dad gave him the casters when he asked which further intrigues me Ossomer suggested that because it was a capital fight he had casters at his disposal and the battle off GK was a capital fight so they likely would have faced Stanley's casters.

    If I had been a Ruler I would have sent a caster along just for the "spell security" i.e. keeping the warlords informed of any potential magic tactics/strategies better to risk one caster a little than loose most of my forces to magical shenanigans (which was what happened).

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:50 pm 
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    Prodigial_Knight wrote:
    It's also interesting to note that at least Jojo was serving Unaroyal without any problems in fact Bea gave him trouble for wasting so much juice on Sylvia so apparently she find applications of Carnymancy useful (or she wanted him to use juice on air defence/scrolls) and he was considered too valuable to be sent with Sylvia to reinforce Ansom and the RCC.

    So a Carny can have a sucesfull long term gig with a Side.

    Looking back at Book 1 it seems a little convenient that among all the forces the RCC sent there wasn't at least one caster, Ossomer even taunted Ansom that dad gave him the casters when he asked which further intrigues me Ossomer suggested that because it was a capital fight he had casters at his disposal and the battle off GK was a capital fight so they likely would have faced Stanley's casters.

    If I had been a Ruler I would have sent a caster along just for the "spell security" i.e. keeping the warlords informed of any potential magic tactics/strategies better to risk one caster a little than loose most of my forces to magical shenanigans (which was what happened).


    Nothing convenient about it; sending Casters into battle is a HUGE risk. Jetstone lost their first dollamancer because they sent into the field to transport some golems. Heck, Jack would be another example; Parson brought him into the battle with him and he wound up croaked. Its just a good thing that Wanda was able to fix that (Sorta). Ace aswell, jetstone lost him because they allowed him to go on the offensive against GK instead of retreating (he did save Cubins, but he could have retreated after that and saved himself aswell)

    You can't control when a Caster pops or what kind... you lose a caster and no only might it be a long time before you get a new one, but that caster might be a different type and thus might require you to change strategies; not to mention the time it takes to train a new caster. A caster would be a high valued target; one that the enemy might target specifically in a suicide run; so even protecting them can be difficult. So the chances of loosing one in battle are not that low at all. Only reason you use them for defensive capitol fight is because at that point you can afford such risk's; loosing is out of the question. Only casters you should be so willing to send into battle are those that find their primary use in combat, like croakamancers; They are useless at home and only find their full use on the battlefield. Most others are not worth the risk and might be better at home.

    Also when it comes to spell security, not every caster can protect you. I would assume only foolamancer and lookamancers can protect you from Foolamancy tricks, and only those with Thinkamancy can protect you from mind tricks (Archons have both Thinkamancy and Foolamancy). So sending your Dittomancer or Dollamancer into battle won't help with spell security.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:04 pm 
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    It was pretty convenient.

    The in-story reason for that is probably because
    1) Sending casters into battle is risky
    2) Ansom & co probably thought the war was won anyway. Even with GK's three casters, GK almost lost, and only a clever tri-link saved them.

    There were likely narrative reasons for that as well, I suspect that story-wise it made more sense to have the fight go with Charlie providing all the spell-like stuff for the RCC.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:09 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Even with GK's three casters, GK almost lost, and only a clever tri-link saved them.

    Gobwin Knob had 5 casters at the time the army was sent...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:35 pm 
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    These stories are great, but I was about to ask how interested are we in them if we're talking about the tea set from an update 5 years ago within a few pages? :D

    There's a lot going on, I really do hope things work out well for Doug.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:03 pm 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    These stories are great, but I was about to ask how interested are we in them if we're talking about the tea set from an update 5 years ago within a few pages?
    I'm more interested in what comes next than in this particular episode. What we got here seems to be pretty light on revelations, except for making it seem that we can trust Dove. Dove seemed to be honestly unaware of what had happened to Homekey which is a very, very bad sign for Homekey, since the only hope for its continued existence seems to be that Dove is using Carnymancy to trick Digdoug. Now it seems that Dove is not doing that, so Homekey probably really is gone and Posbrake is probably dead. All we can do is wait and see what will happen next.

    I have no doubt that Digdoug is moving toward some sort of revelation. A story like this needs a conclusion, so something is bound to happen and all of this is just building up to whatever is coming. It might be in the next episode or the episode after that, but it will be soon and I am on the edge of my seat waiting for whatever it is because I'm sure it will be unexpected. I can't even begin to guess what happens next, except that Charlie will be involved somehow.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 11:52 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    GWvsJohn wrote:
    By far the most likely scenario is that the service set popping is indicative of the cities ability to pop chocolate now.
    No, the story explicitly tells us that it is indicative of the service set being in Wanda's mind. In the words of the story, it "crept in from her mind's eye." (B0E24)


    Ok, since we feel the need to discuss trivialities that we can't know the answer to (I mean this is the Reactions forum and speculations have occasionally been known to run wild here, with no adequate predators to remove them) Lilwik, your argument can be turned around. If it is indicative of the service set being in Wanda's mind, and NOT indicative of the city's ability to pop chocolate, then it is possible that the ability to pop chocolate is also indicative of what was in Wanda's mind, especially since the tea set seems to represent the chocolate in her mind.

    I guess that all I am getting at is this: There is no reason to believe that the chocolate does not pop in the city, and a pretty solid link to suggest that it does. I could be wrong (and it is not like another update will be coming to clarify this exact point, bit beyond that in the story and all), but even in light of that possibility I am going to Occam's Razor it up and take the simplest explanation, which is that the chocolate pops in the city rather than them suddenly deciding to make trade for a non-essential luxury item... not really Goodminton's style.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 3:15 pm 
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    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Lilwik, your argument can be turned around. If it is indicative of the service set being in Wanda's mind, and NOT indicative of the city's ability to pop chocolate, then it is possible that the ability to pop chocolate is also indicative of what was in Wanda's mind, especially since the tea set seems to represent the chocolate in her mind.
    That's not turning my argument around. I agree with that 100%. There are many things possible here because we have yet to learn much about how food works in Erfworld. All I'm saying is that there are many possibilities and none have much weight over the others without evidence.

    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    There is no reason to believe that the chocolate does not pop in the city, and a pretty solid link to suggest that it does.
    The link is nothing more than the fact that they were drinking chocolate. I don't understand why that fact alone makes popping more likely than any other means of getting chocolate.

    Consider Summer Update 36: "As he understood it, if you had a farm, then one turn a piglet would pop on your farm. It would live there for a few turns, becoming a bigger pig each turn. Then at the start of another turn, it would depop and various pig-related foods would pop in the larder of the nearest city and/or the capital." By that I tend to think that for chocolate to pop in Goodminton there would need to be a cocoa farm near one of it's cities.

    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    I could be wrong (and it is not like another update will be coming to clarify this exact point, bit beyond that in the story and all), but even in light of that possibility I am going to Occam's Razor it up and take the simplest explanation, which is that the chocolate pops in the city rather than them suddenly deciding to make trade for a non-essential luxury item... not really Goodminton's style.
    That's not how Occam's Razor works. By Occam's Razor you are supposed to take the theory that has you inventing the fewest things. Since we already know that both popping food and trading actually happens in Erfworld, neither one counts as an invention so Occam's Razor can't be applied, and even if it could be applied it wouldn't tell us which theory is most likely. Maybe the next story will be about a chef and we will learn about food in great detail.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 3:32 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Lilwik, your argument can be turned around. If it is indicative of the service set being in Wanda's mind, and NOT indicative of the city's ability to pop chocolate, then it is possible that the ability to pop chocolate is also indicative of what was in Wanda's mind, especially since the tea set seems to represent the chocolate in her mind.
    That's not turning my argument around. I agree with that 100%. There are many things possible here because we have yet to learn much about how food works in Erfworld. All I'm saying is that there are many possibilities and none have much weight over the others without evidence.

    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    There is no reason to believe that the chocolate does not pop in the city, and a pretty solid link to suggest that it does.
    The link is nothing more than the fact that they were drinking chocolate. I don't understand why that fact alone makes popping more likely than any other means of getting chocolate.

    Consider Summer Update 36: "As he understood it, if you had a farm, then one turn a piglet would pop on your farm. It would live there for a few turns, becoming a bigger pig each turn. Then at the start of another turn, it would depop and various pig-related foods would pop in the larder of the nearest city and/or the capital." By that I tend to think that for chocolate to pop in Goodminton there would need to be a cocoa farm near one of it's cities.

    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    I could be wrong (and it is not like another update will be coming to clarify this exact point, bit beyond that in the story and all), but even in light of that possibility I am going to Occam's Razor it up and take the simplest explanation, which is that the chocolate pops in the city rather than them suddenly deciding to make trade for a non-essential luxury item... not really Goodminton's style.
    That's not how Occam's Razor works. By Occam's Razor you are supposed to take the theory that has you inventing the fewest things. Since we already know that both popping food and trading actually happens in Erfworld, neither one counts as an invention so Occam's Razor can't be applied, and even if it could be applied it wouldn't tell us which theory is most likely. Maybe the next story will be about a chef and we will learn about food in great detail.


    OOOOOK so, going to argue semantics. Occam's Razor means simplest solution/invent the fewest things. Well, fewest invented things is this: The City now pops chocolate which we know cities can do (and we do not know that food popping proceeds the same way with all goods as it does with pigs. Plants could be different). That was simple... However, Goodminton's ruler suddenly deciding that just because his daughter likes chocolate (which there is no record of her mentioning to him) he is going to spend a stretched treasury, from a dying side, on some luxury from a different side, that is an idea that requires some invention (namely inventing personality and conversation that we did not see displayed). Less simple. Not Occam's Razor. (Note: this whole section is also reasoning as to why it is more likely the chocolate was simply popped rather than traded. To reiterate that reasoning: Why would Goodminton trade to obtain chocolate?)

    Also, that IS turning your idea around... You said roughly "that idea could be, but here is a reason why it might not be." and I said, in turn, "Well, Lilwik, your idea why that might be wrong is valid, but here is a way to see (using an idea you just put forward) how maybe the first idea was just as plausible, in yet a different way." It is still turning THAT idea around, just not your whole argument, which IS the same as mine (we just really do not know).

    Everything else I do not disagree with.

    Edited: To add Note, and to close a different parenthesis.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:22 am 
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    [quote="Lilwik" Since we already know that both popping food and trading actually happens in Erfworld[/quote]
    Actually, sorry, could you point out where we've seen food trading in Erfworld? Or do you call gathering your own farms' production as "trading"?
    Thank you.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:34 am 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    wreeee wrote:
    [quote="Lilwik" Since we already know that both popping food and trading actually happens in Erfworld

    Actually, sorry, could you point out where we've seen food trading in Erfworld? Or do you call gathering your own farms' production as "trading"?
    Thank you.[/quote]
    Count Topotato was traded for a few barrels of rations.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 21
     Post Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:46 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    wreeee wrote:
    Lilwik wrote:
    Since we already know that both popping food and trading actually happens in Erfworld

    Actually, sorry, could you point out where we've seen food trading in Erfworld? Or do you call gathering your own farms' production as "trading"?
    Thank you.

    Count Topotato was traded for a few barrels of rations.


    Yeah, but that may have been more of a 'The only way we can, as a royal side, justify giving away a Noble is to get something in return.' I am wondering if there are sides that aren't at war (Say Transylvito and Jetstone) that occasionally trade actual trade goods or food with each other. This would probably not be very common, and I am guessing would essentially boil down to a simple contract: Jetstone will give TV a total of 100 units (servings? meals? pounds?) of beef. In return TV will give Jetstone 20 units (or whatever) of green veggies. If either side does not meet the agreement, there will be a fine of X paid to the other side.

    Somehow I figure that straight up purchases would be more common: Jetstone agrees to trade 100 units of beef for 20 gems totaling no less than X value in Schmuckers.

    Edited: for grammar.

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    A: It is Shockmancy, not ShockAmancy.
    B: Faq as a side is not an acronym.
    C: Starting a theory from the point of view that characters have given false information (knowingly or unknowingly) is not a valid way to build an argument.

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