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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
 Post Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:36 pm 
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[quote="Lilwik"]That seems unlikely. If the command structure still exists, then why wouldn't the heir still act as the heir? More importantly, Jillian confirmed that she was still the heir of a Faq without cities in B0E52. Specifically, she knew that Faq had lost its cities, but even so Jillian knew that Banhammer survived by nothing more than her own failure to become a ruler. That implies that even if Banhammer had escaped the fall of the capital and been croaked in the field, Jillian would still get ruler senses that would allow her to know Banhammer had died.

Nothing Jillian says implies that. What are you drawing this implication from? In what way is Jillian not acting as an heir? and maybe I'm missing something but I don't quite see how any of that indicates a command structure isn't in place.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:02 pm 
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    Mikalyaran wrote:
    Nothing Jillian says implies that. What are you drawing this implication from?
    "Faq, Otoh, and Kibo are Haffaton cities now," said Dame Branch evenly.
    "I’m not a Ruler," said Jillian. "My father escaped, didn’t he? He finally got off his huge keister and moved!"


    Therefore, at least in Jillian's mind, the fact that Jillian isn't a ruler is proof that Banhammer is alive. Therefore the command structure of Faq is still in place and would still be in place even if Jillian were Faq's only remaining unit. Even as a prisoner, even without cities or units, Jillian would still have some ruler sense that would allow her to know that Banhammer had stopped being ruler of Faq.


    Mikalyaran wrote:
    In what way is Jillian not acting as an heir?
    The only thing that has indicated that Jillian might not be an heir was when Banhammer said that Faq would become barbarians if he turned to Haffaton. Becoming barbarians is something that would happen if Faq lost its ruler and had no heir, as seen after Olive died and Jillian commented that the cities of Haffaton had become barbarian in B0E74. So if Banhammer had forgotten that he had an heir, that would certainly explain his statement, but that doesn't mean much because we know that there is at least one other way to become barbarian: both Jillian and Wanda became barbarians without losing their ruler. Therefore there are multiple rules for how someone can become a barbarian and we have no way of knowing how many. Banhammer was probably talking about becoming a barbarian in a way that we've never seen before.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:21 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Mikalyaran wrote:
    Nothing Jillian says implies that. What are you drawing this implication from?
    "Faq, Otoh, and Kibo are Haffaton cities now," said Dame Branch evenly.
    "I’m not a Ruler," said Jillian. "My father escaped, didn’t he? He finally got off his huge keister and moved!"


    Therefore, at least in Jillian's mind, the fact that Jillian isn't a ruler is proof that Banhammer is alive. Therefore the command structure of Faq is still in place and would still be in place even if Jillian were Faq's only remaining unit. Even as a prisoner, even without cities or units, Jillian would still have some ruler sense that would allow her to know that Banhammer had stopped being ruler of Faq.


    Mikalyaran wrote:
    In what way is Jillian not acting as an heir?
    The only thing that has indicated that Jillian might not be an heir was when Banhammer said that Faq would become barbarians if he turned to Haffaton. Becoming barbarians is something that would happen if Faq lost its ruler and had no heir, as seen after Olive died and Jillian commented that the cities of Haffaton had become barbarian in B0E74. So if Banhammer had forgotten that he had an heir, that would certainly explain his statement, but that doesn't mean much because we know that there is at least one other way to become barbarian: both Jillian and Wanda became barbarians without losing their ruler. Therefore there are multiple rules for how someone can become a barbarian and we have no way of knowing how many. Banhammer was probably talking about becoming a barbarian in a way that we've never seen before.


    The implication you raised had to do with Banhammer dying in the field. Nothing Jillian say has anything to do with that situation. So again...where is the implication? You're using a non sequitur.

    Also a ruler turning might be handled quite differently from a ruler being croaked.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:27 pm 
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    Mikalyaran wrote:
    Nothing Jillian says implies that. What are you drawing this implication from? In what way is Jillian not acting as an heir? and maybe I'm missing something but I don't quite see how any of that indicates a command structure isn't in place.
    Mika is correct. Jillian only says that her failure to become Queen means Loj ESCAPED. She specifically says "He finally got off his huge keister and moved!" That does not mean she knows he is still alive. Knowing he escaped in the first place is the one little ray of hope that kicks her Warlord's mind back into gear and goads Olive into giving away the rest. Olive is the one who tells her he is still alive, not her senses or knowledge of mechanics.
    Of course, it is possible the Heir mechanic still kicks in even when there is no "side" to Rule...but Jillian's statements aren't the proof of that.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:12 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Mika is correct. Jillian only says that her failure to become Queen means Loj ESCAPED.
    It's not really an escape if he's dead. If he fled the capital and was hunted down and croaked by Haffaton then he failed to escape. Even if we want to use a definition of "escaped" that allows Banhammer to be both dead and escaped, we also have the fact that the jester in Jillian's mind said that Banhammer was alive. On top of all that, the natural assumption is that Jillian should become ruler if Banhammer dies, since that's the whole point of popping an heir.

    0beron wrote:
    Of course, it is possible the Heir mechanic still kicks in even when there is no "side" to Rule...but Jillian's statements aren't the proof of that.
    It would be very strange if it didn't kick in, since we've seen plenty of other mechanics still working. Banhammer can still command people and he can still disband people and people can still turn to Faq. In every way it seems that losing Faq's cities did nothing at all to Faq's status mechanically.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:13 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    Of course, it is possible the Heir mechanic still kicks in even when there is no "side" to Rule...but Jillian's statements aren't the proof of that.
    It would be very strange if it didn't kick in, since we've seen plenty of other mechanics still working. Banhammer can still command people and he can still disband people and people can still turn to Faq. In every way it seems that losing Faq's cities did nothing at all to Faq's status mechanically.


    By the logic of your statement above...

    Lilwik wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    I think we actually have an explanation. As clearly demonstrated, Loj and Jillian still had the authority to issue orders, so though the side no longer "exists", the command structure of Natural Thinkamancy remains. If however Loj turns, that structure would presumably dissolve, and the former units would now be free to act as they wish as true Barbarians...and given how he knows some of them object to the idea, he doesn't want that.
    That seems unlikely. If the command structure still exists, then why wouldn't the heir still act as the heir? More importantly, Jillian confirmed that she was still the heir of a Faq without cities in B0E52. Specifically, she knew that Faq had lost its cities, but even so Jillian knew that Banhammer survived by nothing more than her own failure to become a ruler. That implies that even if Banhammer had escaped the fall of the capital and been croaked in the field, Jillian would still get ruler senses that would allow her to know Banhammer had died.


    You defeat your claim that it is unlikely here.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:36 am 
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    My uneducated guess is that Postbrake has somehow carried out the same arrangement as Creen was planning to make, but resulting in Posbrake taking over Delkey. The necessary mechanism has already been explained, so we readers are aware of the possibility (unlike some other weird arrangement with no prior exposure).

    Although Digdoug could have survived the necessary fall of Homekey, do we know that Dove could have made it? After all, she was not a Homekey unit but an allied barbarian caster, but with Digdoug injured sending them both could have been the best way to get Dove out of the city before carrying out an orderly and civilized transfer of power..

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:13 am 
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    Noldo wrote:
    My uneducated guess is that Posbrake has somehow carried out the same arrangement as Creen was planning to make, but resulting in Posbrake taking over Delkey. The necessary mechanism has already been explained, so we readers are aware of the possibility (unlike some other weird arrangement with no prior exposure).
    It seems extreme for Minus to give up his kingdom just to save Creen, and I seriously doubt that Posbrake would even want to be ruler of Delkey, but assuming he did that, why would he have destroyed Homekey in the process? He could use shmuckers to promote an heir for Homekey so he could turn without ending his side. Even if Homekey didn't have enough shmuckers in its treasury, surely Delkey and Homekey together could afford it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 8:07 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Noldo wrote:
    My uneducated guess is that Posbrake has somehow carried out the same arrangement as Creen was planning to make, but resulting in Posbrake taking over Delkey. The necessary mechanism has already been explained, so we readers are aware of the possibility (unlike some other weird arrangement with no prior exposure).
    It seems extreme for Minus to give up his kingdom just to save Creen, and I seriously doubt that Posbrake would even want to be ruler of Delkey, but assuming he did that, why would he have destroyed Homekey in the process? He could use shmuckers to promote an heir for Homekey so he could turn without ending his side. Even if Homekey didn't have enough shmuckers in its treasury, surely Delkey and Homekey together could afford it.


    I think that since Minus has shown his true colors, the coexistence of Homekey and Delkey is no longer possible and one of them has to go and Posbrake is also aware of this. If we assume that Creen is either not to be trusted or no longer exists, there is a shortage of an heir to enable survival of both sides after on ruler is removed from the picture. If Posbrake’s turning to Delkey would automatically or after an agreement result in Homekey’s return to Delkey, turning would have resulted in loss of Homekey’s portal (since it is no longer an independent side).

    If (another if, I know) a status of heir cannot be revoked without appointing a new heir (Ceaser remained heir despite the increased risk of coup until a new royal heir was popped), Minus may not be able to surrender Delkey to Homekey while Creen is alive, so only option is to surrender Homekey to Delkey.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:05 am 
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    Overwhelming army 3 turns away. Already has their leadership prisoner, as well as the new sword bonus. Rather that be a sitting duck waiting for the attack, he removed all expensive (and slow to move) upkeep units, razed his own capital (and possibly other towns) for the cash, and is now doing a back movement end run around the overwhelming forces to attack the now defenseless capital of the attacking side.

    Charlie was paid to attack the capital. Once it was razed by its own ruler he got paid and went home.

    So digdoug's side's army is in a "race for the capital" scenario with the slower overwhelming forces army, about to decapitate it if he takes their capital and any other towns they have. His side can't pop *new* units without a capital, nor access the magic kingdom. But they sure can march double time under a leadership bonus and take an undefended capital before its own army can return to defend it.

    The whole complex scenario Creen laid out is going to fall another way now --if it was Game of Thrones it'd be one of those boring but important expository scenes they throw a sex scene in front of so you can endure the to - many - details - at - once dialog. Wonder if the decapitated leaderless army of overwhelming forces then becomes recruitible barbarians to be scooped up by digdoug's side, making it even larger while still keeping a balance of forces in the region that doesn't invite outside attacks...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 4:50 pm 
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    Innovan wrote:
    Overwhelming army 3 turns away. Already has their leadership prisoner, as well as the new sword bonus. Rather that be a sitting duck waiting for the attack, he removed all expensive (and slow to move) upkeep units, razed his own capital (and possibly other towns) for the cash, and is now doing a back movement end run around the overwhelming forces to attack the now defenseless capital of the attacking side.

    Charlie was paid to attack the capital. Once it was razed by its own ruler he got paid and went home.

    So digdoug's side's army is in a "race for the capital" scenario with the slower overwhelming forces army, about to decapitate it if he takes their capital and any other towns they have. His side can't pop *new* units without a capital, nor access the magic kingdom. But they sure can march double time under a leadership bonus and take an undefended capital before its own army can return to defend it.

    The whole complex scenario Creen laid out is going to fall another way now --if it was Game of Thrones it'd be one of those boring but important expository scenes they throw a sex scene in front of so you can endure the to - many - details - at - once dialog. Wonder if the decapitated leaderless army of overwhelming forces then becomes recruitible barbarians to be scooped up by digdoug's side, making it even larger while still keeping a balance of forces in the region that doesn't invite outside attacks...


    He's making an all-out attack on the capital - which would be a siege fight - and he's not bringing his dirtamancer?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:38 pm 
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    Plot Twist: Digdoug renames himself to Sizemore.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:44 pm 
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    lonetrey wrote:
    Plot Twist: Digdoug renames himself to Sizemore.


    Unlikely - Sizemore is from the same tribe as Stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 3:48 am 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    Vreejack wrote:
    And apparently casters will survive the loss of their side? Is that because they are in the MK, or is it because they had already been set free, or is it because all commanders become barbarians? From Bea's story it seems that field commanders disband with other units if a ruler croaks without heir, so did her mages survive because mancers are special? Or because they were in the MK? Or because she had set them free? There wouldn't have been any point in freeing her other units, as the point was to get them away from Wanda.


    I think all units survive the end of their side, if they're not in the field. MK doesn't count as being out in the field.

    The reason Queen Bea saved her casters and nobody else is that casters could use the portal to escape, while other units could not. She probably would have tried to send other units to Transylvito or Jetstone cities so they could go barbarian or join another side, but there wasn't time.


    I'm speculating here, but I'm wondering if we're reading too much into a heir becoming a barbarian, and it has more to do with being a commander. Our main knowledge of field units disbanding at the fall of a capital comes from Parson's Klog #12. However, the klogs have a lot of incomplete information.

    From Digdug, we learned that all commanders have a purse, though for most of the time, their purse is zero. I'm willing to put shmuckers on if a side falls, a commander immediately goes barbarian, and needs to find a way to pay for his upkeep, and the upkeep of any units in his stack, or forage enough food to reduce upkeep to zero, by the start of the next turn. For most warlords in the field, this is virtually impossible, making the klog basically true. With a shortfall, they would disband at dawn. Jillian and Wanda are exceptions because as heirs, they inherited their side's treasury, though they lost anything above what their purse could hold without a capital.

    Casters seem to have a lot of mechanics to reduce their upkeep in exchange for juice. In addition, the Magic Kingdom seems to have a support network for provisions and loaning new casters shmuckers to pay upkeep until they're settled. This makes a caster's chance of survival a lot better than a typical warlord's.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:05 am 
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    kiyote wrote:
    Our main knowledge of field units disbanding at the fall of a capital comes from Parson's Klog #12.
    B1K12 talks about field units disbanding when the ruler is killed. It says nothing about the fall of the capital (except that Parson would probably be killed), and that was written in a situation where the two things are entirely separate since Stanley happened to be away from the capital at the time. Parson was worried about what would happen at the city of Gobwin Knob if Stanley were croaked in the field.

    kiyote wrote:
    I'm willing to put shmuckers on if a side falls, a commander immediately goes barbarian, and needs to find a way to pay for his upkeep, and the upkeep of any units in his stack, or forage enough food to reduce upkeep to zero, by the start of the next turn.
    There's no doubt that commanders go barbarian when the side falls, but most of them don't need to worry about upkeep because they are frozen in time in neutral cities, never again to have their turn start. We know that those neutrals are barbarians from B0E74. We know that the only surviving units are the units in cities and the Magic Kingdom, since the klog tells us that all field units disband. So unless you are a caster who was in the Magic Kingdom when the side ended, foraging won't be an issue.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 8:18 am 
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    wih wrote:
    lonetrey wrote:
    Plot Twist: Digdoug renames himself to Sizemore.


    Unlikely - Sizemore is from the same tribe as Stanley.


    Digdoug bumps into Stanley, Stanley smacks him with the Hammer, BAM Digdoug has "amnesia" and is suddenly one of Stanley's. :P

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:13 am 
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    lonetrey wrote:
    wih wrote:
    lonetrey wrote:
    Plot Twist: Digdoug renames himself to Sizemore.


    Unlikely - Sizemore is from the same tribe as Stanley.


    Digdoug bumps into Stanley, Stanley smacks him with the Hammer, BAM Digdoug has "amnesia" and is suddenly one of Stanley's. :P
    Heh, he wakes up in Gobwin Knob. "Ah man, why did I pop with such a headache? What's my name anyway? I thought we popped with it. And why do I have levels? Someone took waaayyy to many hits of flower power."

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:57 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    kiyote wrote:
    Our main knowledge of field units disbanding at the fall of a capital comes from Parson's Klog #12.
    B1K12 talks about field units disbanding when the ruler is killed. It says nothing about the fall of the capital (except that Parson would probably be killed), and that was written in a situation where the two things are entirely separate since Stanley happened to be away from the capital at the time. Parson was worried about what would happen at the city of Gobwin Knob if Stanley were croaked in the field.

    kiyote wrote:
    I'm willing to put shmuckers on if a side falls, a commander immediately goes barbarian, and needs to find a way to pay for his upkeep, and the upkeep of any units in his stack, or forage enough food to reduce upkeep to zero, by the start of the next turn.
    There's no doubt that commanders go barbarian when the side falls, but most of them don't need to worry about upkeep because they are frozen in time in neutral cities, never again to have their turn start. We know that those neutrals are barbarians from B0E74. We know that the only surviving units are the units in cities and the Magic Kingdom, since the klog tells us that all field units disband. So unless you are a caster who was in the Magic Kingdom when the side ended, foraging won't be an issue.


    This is what i get for posting at 3am. I type things wrong. I said "capital falls" when I meant "side falls." ;-)

    The direct quote from B1K12 is "So what happens if Stanley is croaked? He has no heir, so our side ends. Field units disband, and this city becomes "neutral," which is not as nice as it sounds."

    We're assuming that Parson is saying that when a side falls, all field units immediately disband. Led units and commanders may disband at the start of the next turn, but with no side with a treasury, no purse, being off-turn and no move to forage, their outcome is probably pretty bleak, unless you a caster and the hex you're in is the Magic Kingdom. Heck, there may even be a natural predictamancy mechanic that disbands them immediately if they won't be able to find a way to make upkeep.

    Like I said, this is pure speculation, it just seems more likely to me that surviving the end of a side is a mechanic of provisions and purses instead of a special exemption for the Magic Kingdom.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 1:09 pm 
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    arkerpay wrote:
    A desperate barbarian caster in Digdoug's position could just take his chances and enter a portal. Better option than disbanding. I think most sides would welcome another caster, especially a Dirtamancer.


    Oddly enough ... not so. Dirtamancers get respect in the Magic Kingdom -- but from what Rob's depicted with both Sizemore and DigDoug, not outside. Posbrake's attitude cannot be taken as common, simply because he was experimenting with so many other different conceptualizations; instead, consider Follywood's and Creen's attitude towards a dirtamancer -- trade him for a warlord, and dismissive in the extreme.

    I'm not sure I understand the extreme prejudices towards certain casters ... it certainly isn't affected by their usefulness to their side.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 1:17 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    As a fugitive, she has no purse (not that it is 0. She has none.) and she has to scavenge. That doesn't mean her upkeep isn't still being covered by her former captors, unless it was stated otherwise and I'm forgetting.
    That would either mean that her former captors can disband her at any time by stopping her upkeep payments, or that her former captors are forced to pay her upkeep even against their will. Either way seems like a very awkward rule. I find it far more plausible that her upkeep is reduced to only food while she is a fugitive as part of a mechanism for giving her a fair chance to escape.


    Well, those are two possibilities, but there are others. I suspect it's more likely that refusing to pay upkeep for a prisoner results in the prisoner being released and her previous side becomes responsible for her. There were some tracking advantages for Haffaton in Jillan's being upkept by Haffaton rather than Faq

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