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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
 Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:54 am 
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I wish the upkeep situation was more clear. I'm not sure if eating can only mitigate a portion of your upkeep or whether Dove was eating to pay her turns upkeep and charging to get ahead of the game.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:08 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Good guess, plus, they have Creen as a bargaining chip.

    "We'll surrender and turn, plus give you Delkey's chief warlord and heir, if you come save us."

    The only question is, how would they get the message to them? Charlie is all set to attack, I doubt he'd be accommodating.


    Its a moot point, Numlock ended their turn already. They have no move and cannot bring any reinforcements to Homekey's capital even if they wanted to agree to a surrender deal.


    Last edited by NYbear on Wed May 07, 2014 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:11 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    We know that if need be, commanders can go entirely without upkeep, surviving solely on food. <snip>



    Source? We know FUGITIVES can remain on the run with only food and no upkeep from schmukers. Far as I remember there is no evidence that a non-prisoner/fugitive commander ever goes entirely without upkeep.

    I think there is a mention or 2 in the comic of foraging for food lessening upkeep costs, but never removing it totally.
    (except in the escaped prisoner scenario: which is likely a special case, since you have no purse - your captor pays your upkeep; and if you fail to forage for food you don't disband, u get chained and likely recaptured instead.)

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:14 am 
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    I definitely think Posbrake suddenly croaked, and completely out of the blue. Because that explains the lack of full heal (if it was being done on 'credit' from Homkey) and the empty purse. So when he sent Dig Doug in he was confident on living at least another turn (we don't know that shmuckers can be transferred to units outside your own cities). Still leaves a 'what happened' up in the air.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:31 am 
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    ... what

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 11:52 am 
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    I don't know if Rob reads these threads, but, if you do... you should know that your stories are almost painful with the amount of cliffhangers and new mysteries delivered by each chapter. I love how Rob writes, but I desperately wish I had a million dollars so I could have funded more in the Kickstarter than I did and just get him to be able to hire the staff he needs to allow him to do nothing but write. (of course, GRR Martin has that kind of money and he won't sit and write Winds of Winter)

    It's really hard to read a post in 10 minutes and then wait another week to see what happens, only to have another cliffhanger, and so on, and so on.

    I wish these story updates were coming out even twice a week I guess is what I'm saying. We love your work Rob and we want more and we will pay for it. So, I hope that is somewhat inspiring at least. As a professional designer, I know it feels good to sell your creative work, but my "name" isn't tied to anything the way Rob is tied to Erfworld... we just hand stuff off and if the client or agency is happy, nameless designer X doesn't get much more than an "attaboy" from the sales team.

    The story is great, it draws you in. I recommend Erfworld to everyone.

    I wish I was just starting to read it now so that I could read a few days worth non stop and not have to wait for it.

    Anyway, my guess is that Charlie found some way around Dove's "can't be hit by any ranged attack" rules. Maybe a veiled Archon or ten landed next to Posbrake and killed him with a melee attack.

    I'm guessing that whatever happened will get us all to hate Charlie a little more. I just wish I knew what it was... one more week...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:22 pm 
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    I have to say I'm disappointed.

    So far this story has been all about buildup and planning and offscreen action. We have heard a lot about what can happen with these casters, and what did happen after Digdoug left somewhere, and what is planned to happen on the next turn, and what might happen if conditions are fulfilled, and what will happen according to Predictamancy. Offscreen, offscreen, offscreen.

    When we finally got a battle where we could see it, the scene was great and all, but everybody involved knew it was just play-acting. We knew it was just leading up to something bigger.

    Immediately after that there was a real climax: the battle or assassination or whatever other thing actually ended an entire side. And it still happened offscreen!

    I feel like I'm reading a novel with all the best pages missing.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:37 pm 
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    I love the cliffhangers. I remember when I was an avid comic book reader and there was really good stuff in the comics and we had to wait one whole month to find out what happened in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing or Peter David's The Incredible Hulk.

    Nowadays TV replaced comic books for me, and the cliffhangers are all there, with the same week-long desperation of Erfworld :D Actually, Erfworld is the only literature nowadays, on or off the web, that I feel truly compelled to read. Lurking in forums and writing comments, that's how low it makes me go :oops:

    While we wait for Erfworld to become the multi-million-dollar franchise we'd all love it to be, let's find solace knowing that funding from this Kickstarter will allow Erfworld Team to produce 2 comic pages and 1 text update every week. (Can't find the source though... duh)

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:15 pm 
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    NYbear wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    We know that if need be, commanders can go entirely without upkeep, surviving solely on food. <snip>
    Source? We know FUGITIVES can remain on the run with only food and no upkeep from schmukers. Far as I remember there is no evidence that a non-prisoner/fugitive commander ever goes entirely without upkeep.
    It's a logical induction. Fugitives prove the mechanic exists. It's entirely unrealistic to assume that 100% of the casters in the Mk are employed every single turn, yet we don't see them disbanding left and right. Add to that the manner in which the MK bends/suspends many other normal rules of Erfworld, and Barbarian Casters surviving on food alone is a logical conclusion. More logical than inventing an undemonstrated ability for Moneymancers to make Schmuckers out of thin air.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:41 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    NYbear wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    We know that if need be, commanders can go entirely without upkeep, surviving solely on food. <snip>
    Source? We know FUGITIVES can remain on the run with only food and no upkeep from schmukers. Far as I remember there is no evidence that a non-prisoner/fugitive commander ever goes entirely without upkeep.
    It's a logical induction. Fugitives prove the mechanic exists. It's entirely unrealistic to assume that 100% of the casters in the Mk are employed every single turn, yet we don't see them disbanding left and right.

    That's why MK casters charge a premium for their services. They need not cover only their expenses now, they need to have an extra for rainy days when they can't find a job.

    On the other hand, we have mercenary Jillian forced to disband her own units for lack of upkeep, despite having an highly mobile air force that should have zero problems foraging for survival.

    0beron wrote:
    Add to that the manner in which the MK bends/suspends many other normal rules of Erfworld, and Barbarian Casters surviving on food alone is a logical conclusion. More logical than inventing an undemonstrated ability for Moneymancers to make Schmuckers out of thin air.

    Except that we know that the MK uses its own special currency between themselves precisely because Moneymancers would have the unquestionable upper hand in a smucker-based economy.

    So even if they can't make money out of thin air, moneymancer can probably multiply money, produce dividends, or something along those lines. Heck, they would be kinda pointless if they couldn't produce more money somehow!

    Besides, there's a limit on how much foraging you could get out of a single square. And we didn't even heard of any caster on the MK to be out there foraging for anything.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:48 pm 
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    It shouldn't be forgotten that with the King incapacitated that's it, war over. He dies at turn's end and the Kingdom with him. The best Homekey could have hoped for is the King remaining concious long enough to designate an heir, presuming they had the funds for that. And with Creen dying too? There's no option that won't end with Delkey taking out the capital. So they couldn't win and they couldn't even surrender. It was all over bar the shouting the moment that lightning bolt struck.

    I just hope that weak neighbouring side Paige Downs are able to pick up a few of Homekey's cities, at least that way it won't be an active enemy who profits.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:50 pm 
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    What if the cause is an Outside Context problem? That is, not Charlie, DelKey, or Numloch - someone completely out of the blue. The predictamancer predicted a massive attack by air. Posbrake was trying to fulfill that by arranging an attack on his own terms, but suppose it doesn't work that way? As they say, you can't wash your car to make it rain.

    So here's what I'm thinking: Posbrake, Creen, and DigDoug were all caught in DigDoug's trap. I'm going to assume Posbrake managed to incapacitate Creen, because I have trouble coming up with a scenario in which Creen won but an incapacitated DigDoug ends up in the MK.

    So, Posbrake won, but DigDoug was incapacitated and would die without healing. He shoved DigDoug and Dove through the portal with instructions to heal DigDoug, which Dove follows. This is handy, too, because DigDoug won't be much help in defense right now anyway, and he's safely in the MK where the nearby DelKey troops can't capture him even if they do take the Capital.

    But then the predicted massive air attack shows up. An air attack for which Homekey has basically no defenses, having expended them all in repelling the CharlesComm attack. Which might have been why the Archons destroyed the hippocrate and kept faking the attack for longer than planned: they were paid to expend all of Homekey's air defense. We assumed that this was at the behest of Delkey, but Charlie's a scheming asshole, and he may have been paid not once or twice but three times for the exact same action.

    Now, an out-there bit of speculation in my head is that we know two sides that exercise significant air power: Jillian with her gwiffins, and Gobwin Knob with the dwagons. So it might make sense for one of them to show up. But neither side is likely to be working with Charlie. On the flip side to that, we know that Stanley hates Charlie - maybe Charlie turns around and takes the Homekey capital and razes it for schmuckers, thus managing to neatly doublecross everyone, and that's why Stanley ends up hating Charlie.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:46 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    It shouldn't be forgotten that with the King incapacitated that's it, war over. He dies at turn's end and the Kingdom with him. The best Homekey could have hoped for is the King remaining concious long enough to designate an heir, presuming they had the funds for that.
    It's more important not to forget B2T39, which tells us that incapacitation has many flavors, all bad but not all fatal. Sylvia wasn't dying; she was just pinned under a dwagon. I expect that there is a whole range of incapacitations from very minor (where you just need someone to help you stand up) to very serious (where not even a master Healomancer can save you). The fact that Posbrake didn't ask Dove to fetch a Healomancer would prove that neither he nor Creen were dying when she left for the Magic Kingdom, if we knew we could trust Dove.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:12 pm 
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    Dove is Christine Willes. Fact.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:22 pm 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Besides, there's a limit on how much foraging you could get out of a single square. And we didn't even heard of any caster on the MK to be out there foraging for anything.

    We did see Janis and Sizemore discuss using his Dirtamancy on their vegetable gardens. Not sure if there's a mechanical difference between farming and foraging, but it does show that the MK can grow their own food to offset upkeeps.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:31 pm 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    On the other hand, we have mercenary Jillian forced to disband her own units for lack of upkeep, despite having an highly mobile air force that should have zero problems foraging for survival.
    That's because foraging is risky hit-and-miss, so her Move is better spent trying to find employment. Sometimes she fails, but I'll wager it's a more reliable method than foraging.
    Quote:
    Except that we know that the MK uses its own special currency between themselves precisely because Moneymancers would have the unquestionable upper hand in a smucker-based economy. Heck, they would be kinda pointless if they couldn't produce more money somehow!
    I 100% agree with that, however I think their powers are much more limited when they don't have a Treasury to work with. Working with just a Purse, sure they could make some money, but enough to pay the entire MK's upkeep? I don't think so. And if they could, then they would be filty rich with Rands, which defeats the point, and doesn't seem to be the case.
    Quote:
    Besides, there's a limit on how much foraging you could get out of a single square. And we didn't even heard of any caster on the MK to be out there foraging for anything.
    Is that limit stated somewhere? And even if it is, recall that the Mk is a very large, very special "hex", so such a limit is not neccessarily applicable. Moreover, as someone mentioned, farming is also an option. Dirtamancers and Florists working together to make garden plots, Dittomancers to double the yield rate, Turnamancers to speed the harvest and/or make farming vehicles, Changemancy to make the soil more fertile, Wierdomancy to alter the plants, and Luckamancy to increase the harvest further; all possible applications. That kind of collaborative effort seems more feasable for sustaining the entire MK than single-handedly OP Moneymancers...and also supports the idea of a thriving economy where Rands are changing hands a lot as mutliple casters are involved in the feeding effort.
    And as for never hearing about it....who wants to hear about that when there is plot to cover? Heck, even in the main story we rarely hear very much about eating, and only once do we hear about other "bodily needs".

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:46 pm 
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    Mikalyaran wrote:
    Simplest answer here is that Charlie wanted his 300k. Once it became a war situation and not an "Orderly transfer of power" that became another way to get paid and I'd bet he was hoping it would go that way for that exact reason. Homekey's CWL was dead so the Archons with Charlie's bonus' wouldn't have had a tough time killing any ground troops that were in the way. Then it was just a matter of finding Posbrake in the city and killing him. This also means rescuing Creen for Delkey and all of Homekey's cities going Barbarian. So now DelKey and Numloch are at war with each other with a bunch of barbarian cities frozen around them to be claimed and a powerful group of mercenaries who neither side can afford not to hire. Its also a good moment for the third side which was mentioned earlier in the story (Pagebreak?) to make a move and gain some territory. Pretty cherry situation for Charlie and right in line with what we know of Charlie's rules.


    Yep, Charlie is allied with Delkey, Delkey was at war with Homekey. Numloch had a price on Posbrake's head, Charlie no longer had any deal to honor with Posbrake. It was predicted that a major air attack would hit the City of Homekey, Charlie had a major air force close by. Charlie did it.

    Which means that by hiring a Carny to get out of the self-fullfilling prophecy, they actually fullfilled the prophecy. Should have concentrated on conquering another capital site, and transferred there.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:44 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    Charlie did it. Which means that by hiring a Carny to get out of the self-fulfilling prophecy, they actually fulfilled the prophecy.
    Delkey and Charlie killing Posbrake isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy and it pretty clearly has nothing to do with Dove. Delkey has always resented Homekey from before Homekey even existed. They gave Posbrake his own side so that they could prove that Posbrake's ideas wouldn't work, and when that plan failed an attack from Delkey was just waiting to happen. Creen was obviously being deceitful when he seemed to not recognize Charlie's archons, so there's a good chance that Delkey would have hired Charlie with or without Homekey's fake battle plan. All Homekey's plan seems to have accomplished is choosing the date of Homekey's destruction.

    I suspect that Posbrake knew that he was just choosing the date of the real attack, but he was hoping that knowing when it would happen and being ready with some of Dove's Carnymancy would be enough to save Homekey.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:01 pm 
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    Probably Charlie knocked him off. It wouldn't have been from the incapacitation, since Homekey's turn hadn't properly ended yet, just been put on hold by alliance shift. It might be that he was just waiting for a chance to get the bounty, but unless Delkey is really, really stupid knocking him off under these conditions would probably be failure of contract. Maybe he just ate the penalty, but it's also possible he got up to being paid five times: another side in the area with a turn between Delkey and Homekey got wind of all this (possibly with a Thinkagram after any contracts with secrecy clauses expired) and hired Charlie to help them take the city.

    Alternately, this might be a massively elaborate fakeout/cheat of fate. The only certain information we've got is that the side has fallen and there is no longer a portal to Homekey. We know it's possible for rulers to join other sides, so an elaborate turning dance could allow Homekey to fall and a new side with all of their stuff and troops to form at a different capital site. This would fufill any Predictions about bad things happening to the Side, void any side-level contracts, and terminate alliances. They probably wouldn't be able to shift the capital back within the turn.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that if Dove had hung around with them, though, since I don't think the rules would allow a Ruler to end up as the Ruler of a new side without having an intermediate reagent jump into a portal. It might be mechanically possible, but would go against Duty. If they have done it without Carnamancy, Bucky likely wound up as Overlady with Posbrake as Chief Warlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 19
     Post Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:32 pm 
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    (name here) wrote:
    The only certain information we've got is that the side has fallen and there is no longer a portal to Homekey.
    Technically all we actually have is that it seems that way to Digdoug. Digdoug even pointed out that he might be under the influence of Dove's magic. We naturally dismiss Digdoug's concerns because he was clearly not in his right mind, but that doesn't mean he is wrong. Dove was even standing exactly where the portal should have been. Was she standing there because she was doing a simple bit of Foolamancy and needed to prevent Digdoug from accidentally stepping through the portal that he couldn't see?

    (name here) wrote:
    We know it's possible for rulers to join other sides, so an elaborate turning dance could allow Homekey to fall and a new side with all of their stuff and troops to form at a different capital site. This would fulfill any Predictions about bad things happening to the Side, void any side-level contracts, and terminate alliances. They probably wouldn't be able to shift the capital back within the turn.
    How would that work? Who would turn to where in this turning dance? The Prediction is about a massive air attack, not about the end of any particular side, so no matter how many sides are ended and recreated, the Prediction can't be fulfilled that way.

    (name here) wrote:
    I'd be more inclined to believe that if Dove had hung around with them, though, since I don't think the rules would allow a Ruler to end up as the Ruler of a new side without having an intermediate reagent jump into a portal.
    Why would anyone need to jump into a portal when a ruler can just abdicate?

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