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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
 Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:56 am 
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Lilwik wrote:
How did Dove know that shooting Creen wouldn't kill Posbrake?


My guess? She didn't know for sure. But, not shooting Creen would certainly end in her own croaking. My guess is that she saw the reaction to Posbrake's silent order, realized what was happening, realized that if Homekey lost this then Posbrake would probably croak anyway and she certainly would, and took a risk with the hope that Posbrake would survive the fall somehow. She might also have had some faith in Digdoug's abilities, and that might have led her to consider it less of a risk than we might, but I'd bet that was incidental information and she'd still have taken the risk without Digdoug there. Frankly, with her fate tied to Homekey's the way it is, she had everything to lose by not acting.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:21 am 
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    Godzfirefly wrote:
    She might also have had some faith in Digdoug's abilities, and that might have led her to consider it less of a risk than we might, but I'd bet that was incidental information and she'd still have taken the risk without Digdoug there. Frankly, with her fate tied to Homekey's the way it is, she had everything to lose by not acting.
    Expecting Digdoug to save Posbrake from that would be pure madness unless she has some magical advantage allowing her to know what was going to happen, and if Posbrake died in that fall then Dove would be just as dead. If she didn't know Posbrake would survive the fall somehow, then she'd have better odds in hoping that Creen wouldn't choose to kill Posbrake.

    But I think I've figured it all out. Here's what I think is really going on:
    Spoiler: show
    Hiring Charlie to do the fake attack was always intended to draw out Homekey's real enemies. It was never a secret. You don't tell your secrets to Charlie, of all people. Posbrake only acted as though it was a secret for Peck's benefit, since Peck would obviously oppose the real plan. All the time that Dove and Posbrake have been spending alone together was for the purpose of Dove casting on Posbrake, giving Posbrake layers upon layers of Carnymancy protection. He's not just immune to ranged attacks; he's also immune to melee attacks and falling and everything else. She's been casting to guarantee Posbrake a happy ending, just as she promised. That's how she knew that Posbrake wouldn't die when she shot Creen. Also, it wasn't luck that saved Digdoug from being shot in this episode; that was also Carnymancy. Dove probably cast some protection on Digdoug when she was helping him build the lightning trap.

    Posbrake didn't actually know who was going to attack. He was very much hoping that it would be Charlie since that would give Homekey a nice payday, and he was very much hoping that it wouldn't be Delkey, but Dove and probably Charlie have been spreading Homekey's plan to waste its air defenses far and wide to give any potential hidden enemy the opportunity to attack Homekey by air when it seems weak. Today is actually the day when Homekey is better protected than ever thanks to Dove's Carnymancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:46 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    LordAcme wrote:
    Ruh roh. Either we have a continuity error, or....
    There's a third possibility: maybe the spell lasts all day and Posbrake just didn't mention it since everyone naturally assumed that the attack would be over by the end of Numloch's turn. At the time he was talking, only Numloch's turn was thought to matter and any duration the spell has beyond that is just a bonus. Posbrake never specifically said when the spell would end.

    Also, in Erfworld turn is often synonymous with day, e.g. when Judy uses year, Jillian wondered why you'd need a term for 365 turns.

    Goshen wrote:
    Let's not forget that in episode 13 (http://www.erfworld.com/page/6/) Dove laid hands on DigDug before he cast the spell that created the lightning trap. The purpose was to enhance the trap in some unspecified way. That might explain how lethal it was, blasting Creen in the head. But what were the tradeoffs involved?

    It wasn't to enhance the trap in some unspecified way. It was to allow the trap to be created at the capital in the first place. The trap was terrain dependent, i.e. a lightning trap can only be constructed in a stormy hex. Dove used Carnymancy to break that rule. Instead of the trap needing to draw power from its own hex, Dove enabled Digdoug to create a trap that draws its Shockamancy from a different hex.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    From LIAB, we know Gobwin Knob's is before Jetstone's.

    This is not entirely correct. We know that Gobwin Knob's turn is before an alliance of Jetstone, Faq, Haggar and Transylvito, all of whom had forces in the Battle Space. As we know, an alliance acts together when the last member of the alliance has their turn. If we are working on the assumption that turn order is based on the age of the side, then it would make since that Gobwin Knob would act before the RCC II, because FAQ is a brand new side.

    Lilwik wrote:
    I hope all the secrets will be revealed before the story ends.

    We may not get all the secrets revealed, though. According to Rob on Facebook, he's planning to do two more Digdoug episodes, which I assume will wrap up the current situation, then a shorter backer story, probably Lord Crush length, then start Book 3 and resume Book 0. He also mentioned that since Doug pledged at the top tier for 3 of the Kickstarters, he's going to come back to Digdoug at some point in the future. So, since we will be revisiting Digdoug at a later date, Rob may decide to leave some threads dangling to be continued in that later installment.

    Okay, random thought of the day time: After everything that has happened to Posbrake today, how will he react when he learns Digdoug stole one of his bottles of Cognac?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:59 am 
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    Mrtyuh wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    From LIAB, we know Gobwin Knob's is before Jetstone's.

    This is not entirely correct. We know that Gobwin Knob's turn is before an alliance of Jetstone, Faq, Haggar and Transylvito, all of whom had forces in the Battle Space. As we know, an alliance acts together when the last member of the alliance has their turn. If we are working on the assumption that turn order is based on the age of the side, then it would make since that Gobwin Knob would act before the RCC II, because FAQ is a brand new side.

    Yes, I know, I didn't think of all the problems with my theory before opening my mouth. Please disregard it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:23 am 
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    Lilwik is doing an excellent job of hearing zebras, isn't he?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:04 am 
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    I don't think Dove cast the lightning blast. Can anyone point me somewhere describes how the lightning trap works? I thought blasts were expected to shoot from all over the tower, not just the top.

    On the other hand, it's noteworthy the blast only shot after Posbrake told everyone to disengage. It was a silent order, but Dove is allied, so she too would have to comply, right? (And don't start with "she used Carny to break the rule that units must obey orders". If things worked like that, Carnymancers would be the most sought out casters in Erfworld.)

    Seeing that in present day Dove is slacking off in the Magic Kingdom instead of enjoying a luxury life as Queen of Homekey... I believe she is a nice hardworking girl, sincerely on Posbrake and Digdoug's side; but still something bad's gonna happen next episode, she will be unjustly blamed, and cast away. Nobody trusts a Carnymancer, including all of you lot.

    Perhaps Charlie will take this chance to offer Dove an employment opportunity...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:32 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    ... the fact that Dove didn't do it must prove that Dove is honestly trying to help Homekey and isn't interested in the bounty, and therefore she somehow intended to help Posbrake by dropping him off the tower. We can add that to the list of things that people have done for mysterious reasons in this story. I hope all the secrets will be revealed before the story ends.

    Simple enough, she's hedging her bets going after Creen. If it Posbrake goes down she gets paid, if not, she's lost the short con for the sake of the long one. Marks like Homekey don't grow on trees, you know.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:37 am 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    But what about Gobwin Knob? The capital fell, and Stanley only survived because he was heir, so Stanley would have gone barbarian during the Gobwin Insurrection. This would probably reset any age based turn order.
    That information taken alone could lead us to two possibilities; either this means that sides do somehow still count as existing for a mechanical purpose even when they lose their capital, or it means turn order is not age-based.
    However, there is another piece of info we need to consider that leads us to a third possibility. Allied sides collectively take turn on the latest natural turn order of all their members. And IIRC we have actually never seen Jetstone take a natural turn. All the events thus far have involved the RCC and RCC II, both of whom include sides who we've never met and know very little about. All it would take is one much younger side, and Jetstone would take a later turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:17 am 
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    arbo wrote:
    Can anyone point me somewhere describes how the lightning trap works? I thought blasts were expected to shoot from all over the tower, not just the top.
    We've never seen the lightning trap work explicitly. The closest we've come is this from Digdoug 14, "Digdoug’s lightning trap involved adding a tall, cross-braced spire of wrought iron on top of the guard house." I certainly expect that lightning from the trap would shoot from that spire.

    arbo wrote:
    On the other hand, it's noteworthy the blast only shot after Posbrake told everyone to disengage. It was a silent order, but Dove is allied, so she too would have to comply, right?
    She's an ally, not a slave. Posbrake doesn't have his same special power over his allies just because they are allies, as Bucky said in Digdoug 9, "You know where the Homekey units are. Who do you think shooed the Delkey troops out of your way?"

    spriteless wrote:
    Simple enough, she's hedging her bets going after Creen. If it Posbrake goes down she gets paid, if not, she's lost the short con for the sake of the long one. Marks like Homekey don't grow on trees, you know.
    If that's right then she doesn't actually want Posbrake to die, but if he's going to die then she wants to be the one who kills him. Since she's spending so much time in Homekey, she probably snuck over to Numloch at some point and quickly got a contract so she'd be instantly paid if she ever happened to kill Posbrake, just in case things went south. She might even have an arrangement with Charlie to get her out of the city in case things go that badly. She might be mercenary enough for that to be all true, but I wouldn't bet on it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:15 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Presuming for a moment, that Creen didn't find out about the Carnymancy by means of spies in the Magick Kingdom, magic of his own Side, or even guesswork... Dove I think, pretty much has to be on the level, her spell on Posbrake worked after all, as, it seems, did the lightning trap.
    Also, Creen ordered his archers to shoot King Posbreak, which he would have known not to bother with if Dove was telling him everything.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:32 pm 
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    Charlie probably told Creen about Dove but either didn't know what she specifically did or was not paid enough to mention the anti-arrow spell.

    I'm honestly a bit surprised how well things went for Delkey until the lighting bolt struck. Usually archers beginning combat immediately adjacent to people with spears do not have a very good time, and Peck seemed pretty confident about the combat strength of the golem stack.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:40 pm 
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    On a totally unrelated note....Creen's "hrnnn" noises or whatever they're supposed to be are really annoying, and not in the way intended I think. I just don't think it translates to text well and lacks the same effect it has in speech.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:25 pm 
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    (name here) wrote:
    I'm honestly a bit surprised how well things went for Delkey until the lighting bolt struck. Usually archers beginning combat immediately adjacent to people with spears do not have a very good time, and Peck seemed pretty confident about the combat strength of the golem stack.

    We need to remember how combat works in Erfworld. All units in the same stack as a Chief Warlord, which both Peck and Creen are, receive the Chief's full Leadership Bonus. All units within the same hex receive half of that bonus. So, those archers and the two warlords were receiving the full bonus from Creen. The first thing Creen did was bifurcate Peck. At that point, all Homekey units lost all Leadership Bonuses, unless they were in a stack with a warlord. So, a stack of archers and three warlords was easily able to overwhelm the unled pikers. It's similar to the situation where Haffaton attacked Goodminton's siege at the beginning of Book 0. 22 mid-level firemen and a single level-4 warlord were able to decimate Goodminton's siege and croak 43 Goodminton units before being overwhelmed by numbers, specifically because they had a warlord and the other side did not. It's the same principle here. The stack with Leadership is going to have a significant advantage over the stack without it. Also, Creen's lightsaber seems extremely powerful. He was able to bifurcate Peck, disintegrate a rock golem and disarm Posbrake each with a single blow of his sword.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:46 pm 
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    Mrtyuh wrote:
    (name here) wrote:
    I'm honestly a bit surprised how well things went for Delkey until the lighting bolt struck. Usually archers beginning combat immediately adjacent to people with spears do not have a very good time, and Peck seemed pretty confident about the combat strength of the golem stack.

    We need to remember how combat works in Erfworld. All units in the same stack as a Chief Warlord, which both Peck and Creen are, receive the Chief's full Leadership Bonus. All units within the same hex receive half of that bonus. So, those archers and the two warlords were receiving the full bonus from Creen. The first thing Creen did was bifurcate Peck. At that point, all Homekey units lost all Leadership Bonuses, unless they were in a stack with a warlord. So, a stack of archers and three warlords was easily able to overwhelm the unled pikers. It's similar to the situation where Haffaton attacked Goodminton's siege at the beginning of Book 0. 22 mid-level firemen and a single level-4 warlord were able to decimate Goodminton's siege and croak 43 Goodminton units before being overwhelmed by numbers, specifically because they had a warlord and the other side did not. It's the same principle here. The stack with Leadership is going to have a significant advantage over the stack without it. Also, Creen's lightsaber seems extremely powerful. He was able to bifurcate Peck, disintegrate a rock golem and disarm Posbrake each with a single blow of his sword.


    This makes me question just how experienced Creen is/was, his lines showed a disdain for soldiers turned warlords which went even beyond the royalist POV made me think Creen was the "stay in the capital and concoct elaborate plans" type of Chief Warlord and didn't quite fancy going into the field.

    But that would mean that his level would be low, i.e all his armies would lack a good leadership bonus and he would have faired much much worse against Delkey, yes yes he has a sweet lighsword but he was also in a melee with a field promoted CW a monarch who was a former CW and several golems, the sword can't be that powerfull on it's own.

    PS: Thanks rob for introducing canon lighsabers it makes me feel better about the Star Wars shout-outs I'm including in my fanfic :mrgreen:

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:50 pm 
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    The attitude of Royalty seems to be make the Heir CWL and send him out into the field. Being such a valuable unit, I'm sure they are typically well-protected and rarely fight on the very front line of a given battle, but being present and participating no doubt gives them XP. So I imagine Creen is still of a respectable level and behaves similarly to Ansom in Book 1.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:58 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    The attitude of Royalty seems to be make the Heir CWL and send him out into the field. Being such a valuable unit, I'm sure they are typically well-protected and rarely fight on the very front line of a given battle, but being present and participating no doubt gives them XP. So I imagine Creen is still of a respectable level and behaves similarly to Ansom in Book 1.


    It seems Ansom was a particularly skilled Warlord, but as you say, it appears the commonly seen Heir/Chief Warlord combo is one of the toughest units in Erfworld. Even more so for Royal units.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:00 pm 
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    King Posbrake was formerly the Chief Warlord of Delkey, before he founded Homekey. King Minus seems to share many of Prince Creen's views, so that would indicate that all of Delkey's warlords are nobles, since they are the only ones fit to lead troops in battle. Posbrake is a utilitarian. Even as Chief Warlord, I imagine he would use all resources available to him. For those reasons, I would image Creen spent a fair amount of time in the field leading troops during his brother's tenure as Chief. Also, we've seen in Erfworld that magic items are extremely powerful, e.g. King Slately's raygun. Remember, Slately had only ever witnessed one battle, and that was from a well defended tower; he was effectively a Level-1 warlord, but his magic items allowed him to decimate his opponents. Creen's sword is a force multiplier in and of itself.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:26 pm 
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    Mrtyuh wrote:
    Creen's sword is a force multiplier in and of itself.


    haha... nice one.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 6:45 pm 
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    Mrtyuh wrote:
    Goshen wrote:
    Let's not forget that in episode 13 (http://www.erfworld.com/page/6/) Dove laid hands on DigDug before he cast the spell that created the lightning trap. The purpose was to enhance the trap in some unspecified way. That might explain how lethal it was, blasting Creen in the head. But what were the tradeoffs involved?

    It wasn't to enhance the trap in some unspecified way. It was to allow the trap to be created at the capital in the first place. The trap was terrain dependent, i.e. a lightning trap can only be constructed in a stormy hex. Dove used Carnymancy to break that rule. Instead of the trap needing to draw power from its own hex, Dove enabled Digdoug to create a trap that draws its Shockamancy from a different hex.

    Yes, thank you for reminding me.

    So, it looks like the trap simply worked the way it was supposed to. Creen was a flying enemy near the tower and a bolt of lightning just happened to strike the remote tower at that time.

    It is possible that the timing of the shot was influenced by Dove in some way. It would require luckamancy to change when the remote lightning struck. Reprogramming the trap would be dirtamancy. If it was not the trap, she would have had to shoot from her hiding place with some sort of device. None of these seem likely.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 7:25 pm 
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    You know, we've never seen the exact wording of the Predictamancy about the air attack, and as near as I can tell working with the exact wording or the Predictamancy is the key.

    Suppose the prediction was "There will be a massive air attack on the capital, and Posbreak will fall".

    Well, he just fell.

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