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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:45 pm 
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Hm, I get what happened in terms of the turn carryover, the alliance breaking / reforming (and wasn't there discussion of potentially gaining multiple turns per day via rapid alliance break/reforms at one time?), but what I don't get is the Turn Order. Has there ever been anything to give us any concrete info what decides the Natural Turn Order that sides obey to?

As far as I can tell the Order is Erfwide, but I recall it once mentioned (I think in one of Jillian's monologues), that sides that are definitely going to have an encounter in a given day will definitely have their Turn Order affected by it, otherwise there's nothing noticeable, which suggests multiple sides that 100% will not interact have their turn simultaneously. But that aside, that's only speculation, in sides that are meeting, what decides the Natural Turn Order? Do we have a clue or none at all? I'm guessing it might have to do with Side creation times (which'd put Delkey always before Homekey due to spinoff status), but would also suggest that either Charlescomm or Numloch (most likely Charlescomm), existed before either, if that theory is anywhere near accurate.

I have no idea. Was it mentioned somewhere and I just missed it?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:52 pm 
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    A few thoughts.

    The way the lightning blast is described is certainly meant to imply that Dove shot it. She likely used Carnymancy to fire it herself.

    Whispri's theory that Bucky is the source for the book cooking knowledge is spot on. She's 100% the traitor.

    What'd determines Natural Turn order has never been stated. But the fact that Delkey goes before Homekey and the fact that Charlescomm (a very old side) seems to go first is strong evidence that founding date determines turn order. What Jillian was referring to is the phenomenon that happens when two sides are going to interact, the later Turn Order side will not start at dawn. Any sides that aren't going to have conflict always start at dawn. Natural Turn order is set in stone. Whether it matters or not is variable.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:00 pm 
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    Zain wrote:
    Do we have a clue or none at all?
    As far as I'm aware we have no clues about what determines natural turn order, but I don't know of anything that contradicts the theory that it is based on the age of the side.

    Zain wrote:
    I'm guessing it might have to do with Side creation times (which'd put Delkey always before Homekey due to spinoff status), but would also suggest that either Charlescomm or Numloch (most likely Charlescomm), existed before either, if that theory is anywhere near accurate.
    When two sides are allied they take their turn together as if they were a single side whose natural turn order is the latest of the two sides. I think this was mentioned in Book 1 somewhere. That means that both Charlescomm and Numloch must have their natural turn before Homekey, but it tells us nothing about whether Delkey's natural turn is before or after Charlescom or Numloch. Until this update we'd never seen any indication of when Delkey takes its turn outside of an alliance with Homekey.

    GWvsJohn wrote:
    The way the lightning blast is described is certainly meant to imply that Dove shot it. She likely used Carnymancy to fire it herself.
    Because it is lightning, surely it must be Shockmancy. Casters are capable of casting outside of their natural discipline with training.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:06 pm 
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    I have no idea if anyone mentioned it, but is Creen's blade an Arken(light)Saber?

    Or I'm completely misreading and it's not a viable guess at all...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:14 pm 
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    Godsire wrote:
    I have no idea if anyone mentioned it, but is Creen's blade an Arken(light)Saber?

    Or I'm completely misreading and it's not a viable guess at all...

    It sounds like a Sith-style light saber, but it's not an Arken-anything -- somebody would have commented on it if it was. It's probably just a magic item, albeit a powerful one.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:26 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    That being said, Slately seemed to think that the heir was going to be sacrificed. I also have a hard time seeing the production queue transferring. It would be cool if it did, but I think not.
    MadZuri wrote:
    The heir was removed from the production queue when they changed capitals, before the city fell.

    I think we need to be careful about taking Slately's words at face value. Remember that by the time a Capital switch is decided on, they have given up on keeping the city. So Slately viewing the Heir is gone/lost/sacrificed may merely be Royal hyperbole or the like. Because in his mind, the unit popping under GK control is just as bad as it never existing. Also, he's proven to be an idiot about magic, so he might not know any more about Production rules. Though the former part of my statement is more compelling to consider.
    That being said, Madzuri could have a more valid point. The loss of capital status prior to the city transferring ownership might be enough to cancel the queue. However we also have to consider...if the drop in level is still overcome by the "production-in-progress" mechanic, what's to say loss of Capital status won't also be overcome? Assuming it ignores one rule but not the other is a bit of a logical fallacy unless we have some stronger evidence than Slately's rhetoric.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:40 pm 
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    “And I shall have one spell upon me,” said Posbrake, with intense conviction. “A Carnymancy spell. A spell that breaks the rules. A spell that says, ‘this unit, for this turn, cannot be hit by any ranged attack.”

    Ruh roh. Either we have a continuity error, or....

    Spoiler: show
    Dove renewed the spell on the last turn change. But, she would have had to do so at a distance through her window.


    Guess we'll know next update!

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:00 pm 
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    LordAcme wrote:
    Ruh roh. Either we have a continuity error, or....
    There's a third possibility: maybe the spell lasts all day and Posbrake just didn't mention it since everyone naturally assumed that the attack would be over by the end of Numloch's turn. At the time he was talking, only Numloch's turn was thought to matter and any duration the spell has beyond that is just a bonus. Posbrake never specifically said when the spell would end.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:08 pm 
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    Let's not forget that in episode 13 (http://www.erfworld.com/page/6/) Dove laid hands on DigDug before he cast the spell that created the lightning trap. The purpose was to enhance the trap in some unspecified way. That might explain how lethal it was, blasting Creen in the head. But what were the tradeoffs involved?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:33 pm 
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    Goshen wrote:
    The purpose was to enhance the trap in some unspecified way. That might explain how lethal it was, blasting Creen in the head. But what were the tradeoffs involved?
    Maybe the trade-off was that the lightning trap wasn't real. Remember Digdoug being doubtful about whether he even really made a lightning trap, since he could no longer remember exactly what he did. Maybe when Digdoug thought that he was making a lightning trap what he was really doing was helping Dove with a spell that would allow her to personally draw lightning from a nearby storm hex for the purpose of shooting this particular bolt of lightning to croak Posbrake and claim the bounty.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:48 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    That being said, Slately seemed to think that the heir was going to be sacrificed. I also have a hard time seeing the production queue transferring. It would be cool if it did, but I think not.
    MadZuri wrote:
    The heir was removed from the production queue when they changed capitals, before the city fell.

    I think we need to be careful about taking Slately's words at face value. Remember that by the time a Capital switch is decided on, they have given up on keeping the city. So Slately viewing the Heir is gone/lost/sacrificed may merely be Royal hyperbole or the like. Because in his mind, the unit popping under GK control is just as bad as it never existing. Also, he's proven to be an idiot about magic, so he might not know any more about Production rules. Though the former part of my statement is more compelling to consider.
    That being said, Madzuri could have a more valid point. The loss of capital status prior to the city transferring ownership might be enough to cancel the queue. However we also have to consider...if the drop in level is still overcome by the "production-in-progress" mechanic, what's to say loss of Capital status won't also be overcome? Assuming it ignores one rule but not the other is a bit of a logical fallacy unless we have some stronger evidence than Slately's rhetoric.



    Also, even IF erworld check and update production queue, the moment it is checked might be of some importance. For instance if the legality check is made at the end of turn, Slately could simply have assumed that at the end of the turn, the city would not be a capital anymore and that the heir would be sacrificed, he could not predict GK would make spacerock their new capital.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:52 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Goshen wrote:
    The purpose was to enhance the trap in some unspecified way. That might explain how lethal it was, blasting Creen in the head. But what were the tradeoffs involved?
    Maybe the trade-off was that the lightning trap wasn't real. Remember Digdoug being doubtful about whether he even really made a lightning trap, since he could no longer remember exactly what he did. Maybe when Digdoug thought that he was making a lightning trap what he was really doing was helping Dove with a spell that would allow her to personally draw lightning from a nearby storm hex for the purpose of shooting this particular bolt of lightning to croak Posbrake and claim the bounty.

    Seems pretty dang convoluted. And why would she shoot at Posbrake when she knows he can't be hit by ranged attacks? She also had plenty of other opportunities to assassinate Posbrake, which would have had cleaner getaway options. He let her cast upon him. Why protect him, when she could have changed the rules in a way that would have caused his death?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:24 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Zain wrote:
    Do we have a clue or none at all?
    As far as I'm aware we have no clues about what determines natural turn order, but I don't know of anything that contradicts the theory that it is based on the age of the side.

    From TBFGK, we know Charlescomm's turn is before Gobwin Knob's. From LIAB, we know Gobwin Knob's is before Jetstone's. Jetstone is at least 80000 turns old, so unless they temporarily lost all capitals at some point in current history, Jetstone is far more ancient than Charlescomm and the current incarnation of Gobwin Knob. My guess would be capital site. We know that there are approximately 200 of them, and each of them has a specific selection of units to pick from. Maybe they determine turn order too.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:53 am 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    ...Jetstone is far more ancient than Charlescomm and the current incarnation of Gobwin Knob.
    OOOOOBJECTION!
    We have no idea how long passes between Books 0 and 1, nor how long Charlescomm had existed when the events of Book 0 occur. Thus we have no way of comparing the relative ages of the 3 sides in question.

    On the question of Turn order however, the age of the side does seem probable IMO. Delkey is older than Homekey, and their turn comes first. All other known turn orders do seem in line with probable ages (Charlescomm and Transylvito are the two sides who are specifically named the earliest in the story, and they have two of the earliest known turn orders.)

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:40 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    ...Jetstone is far more ancient than Charlescomm and the current incarnation of Gobwin Knob.
    OOOOOBJECTION!
    We have no idea how long passes between Books 0 and 1, nor how long Charlescomm had existed when the events of Book 0 occur. Thus we have no way of comparing the relative ages of the 3 sides in question.

    It's entirely possible Charlie inherited an existing side to create Charlescomm or even actually is that old. But what about Gobwin Knob?

    The capital fell, and Stanley only survived because he was heir, so Stanley would have gone barbarian during the Gobwin Insurrection. This would probably reset any age based turn order. So barring the exception mentioned in my previous post (Jetstone also losing their capitals), that would require Stanley (and a whole bunch of other characters) to be over 219 years old. The oldest known age is 78 years, and that was on one of the strongest casters in the MK.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:00 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    And why would she shoot at Posbrake when she knows he can't be hit by ranged attacks?
    The only thing protecting Posbrake from ranged attacks his Dove's own spell, and it seems likely that she could cast her spell so that she would be able to shoot him.

    Lipkin wrote:
    She also had plenty of other opportunities to assassinate Posbrake, which would have had cleaner getaway options.
    What getaway options? Remember that if Posbrake dies the side would end and the portal to the Magic Kingdom would close. Even worse, if Dove attacks Posbrake then she'd be breaking her alliance with Homekey, making her an enemy in the eyes of every Homekey unit. The only hope she has ever had to get away after assassinating Posbrake would be by being extracted by a friendly side. The archons who are due to arrive any moment might have been hired by Dove for a get away.

    Lipkin wrote:
    He let her cast upon him. Why protect him, when she could have changed the rules in a way that would have caused his death?
    If the protection spell failed totally then Posbrake might get shot by some random ranged attack and he might even survive, and everyone would know that Dove was a traitor so silent orders for her capture would go immediately to every Homekey unit in the garrison. She was probably hoping for something more subtle, something like what just happened, in order to create enough doubt about what happened to give her a chance to escape.

    This is all assuming that Dove was actually trying to kill Posbrake. Any casual observer would surely conclude that shooting Creen at that moment was sure to kill Posbrake, but perhaps that would be underestimating Carnymancy. Dove said, "If you wanted your fortune told right, for example—if you wanted a happy ending—you should maybe-a come to me first." Carnymancy is the magic of happy endings, so maybe some of Dove's juice ensured that something would save Posbrake from that fall.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    The capital fell, and Stanley only survived because he was heir, so Stanley would have gone barbarian during the Gobwin Insurrection. This would probably reset any age based turn order.
    Why would the age-based turn order be reset? The side didn't end, as Sizemore specifically says in B1P79. Stanley didn't survive the fall of the capital as the heir; he became the ruler of Gobwin Knob as soon as Saline IV died, so Stanley was the ruler when the capital fell, meaning that Gobwin Knob's chain of rulers was never interrupted during that incident. We have no idea how far back that chain goes.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:18 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    And why would she shoot at Posbrake when she knows he can't be hit by ranged attacks?
    The only thing protecting Posbrake from ranged attacks his Dove's own spell, and it seems likely that she could cast her spell so that she would be able to shoot him.

    Lipkin wrote:
    She also had plenty of other opportunities to assassinate Posbrake, which would have had cleaner getaway options.
    What getaway options? Remember that if Posbrake dies the side would end and the portal to the Magic Kingdom would close. Even worse, if Dove attacks Posbrake then she'd be breaking her alliance with Homekey, making her an enemy in the eyes of every Homekey unit. The only hope she has ever had to get away after assassinating Posbrake would be by being extracted by a friendly side. The archons who are due to arrive any moment might have been hired by Dove for a get away.

    Lipkin wrote:
    He let her cast upon him. Why protect him, when she could have changed the rules in a way that would have caused his death?
    If the protection spell failed totally then Posbrake might get shot by some random ranged attack and he might even survive, and everyone would know that Dove was a traitor so silent orders for her capture would go immediately to every Homekey unit in the garrison. She was probably hoping for something more subtle, something like what just happened, in order to create enough doubt about what happened to give her a chance to escape.

    This is all assuming that Dove was actually trying to kill Posbrake. Any casual observer would surely conclude that shooting Creen at that moment was sure to kill Posbrake, but perhaps that would be underestimating Carnymancy. Dove said, "If you wanted your fortune told right, for example—if you wanted a happy ending—you should maybe-a come to me first." Carnymancy is the magic of happy endings, so maybe some of Dove's juice ensured that something would save Posbrake from that fall.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    The capital fell, and Stanley only survived because he was heir, so Stanley would have gone barbarian during the Gobwin Insurrection. This would probably reset any age based turn order.
    Why would the age-based turn order be reset? The side didn't end, as Sizemore specifically says in B1P79. Stanley didn't survive the fall of the capital as the heir; he became the ruler of Gobwin Knob as soon as Saline IV died, so Stanley was the ruler when the capital fell, meaning that Gobwin Knob's chain of rulers was never interrupted during that incident. We have no idea how far back that chain goes.

    This is the problem with dissecting posts. You completely miss the point.

    He let her cast on him. Which means he was at her mercy to cast anything she wanted on him. He had no idea if the spell would work as advertised, he just chose to trust her. She could have cast on him in such a way that would trigger his death, but would give her enough time to make it through the portal first. Like "any time this unit attacks, it targets itself instead." Or "all attacks targeting this unit crit." Or "instead of fall mechanics triggering when this unit falls, they instead trigger when they eat a burrito." Erf has plenty of ways to die. Dove would just need to change the criteria to trigger such a death, and then be through the portal before that happened.

    Besides. Falls are automatically fatal. Creen was far more a threat to the King and the side than falling. If they surrender, they lose the side for sure. If Posbrake falls, he's got a chance to just take damage, or be incapped, rather than croak. You think Creen would have let him live after he yielded? Not after what he just tried.

    Dove had plenty of ways to kill Posbreak before now. She was clearly trying to save him.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:38 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    The capital fell, and Stanley only survived because he was heir, so Stanley would have gone barbarian during the Gobwin Insurrection. This would probably reset any age based turn order.
    Why would the age-based turn order be reset? The side didn't end, as Sizemore specifically says in B1P79. Stanley didn't survive the fall of the capital as the heir; he became the ruler of Gobwin Knob as soon as Saline IV died, so Stanley was the ruler when the capital fell, meaning that Gobwin Knob's chain of rulers was never interrupted during that incident. We have no idea how far back that chain goes.

    I assumed that by the capital falling, they meant they had literally lost the capital, which would have also done the job. I never even considered that the gobwins might have left it under technical Gobwin Knob ownership, which was admittedly pretty stupid of me, since natural allies don't use capital sites. Never mind, my theory was idiotic.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:41 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Maybe the trade-off was that the lightning trap wasn't real. Remember Digdoug being doubtful about whether he even really made a lightning trap, since he could no longer remember exactly what he did. Maybe when Digdoug thought that he was making a lightning trap what he was really doing was helping Dove with a spell that would allow her to personally draw lightning from a nearby storm hex for the purpose of shooting this particular bolt of lightning to croak Posbrake and claim the bounty.


    Why does there have to be a trade off, again? And, why should we assume that the lightning bolt that is sent to croak Posbrake's captor was intended to croak Posbrake? That seems pretty round-about.

    And, it'd be pretty stupid of her, since it is pretty clear that 1) Delkey doesn't much like Dove 2) Delkey would be very unhappy with someone that croaked their Chief Warlord and Heir and 3) Delkey would capture Homekey upon Posbrake's death, leaving her with nowhere to run.

    And, even if the spell was shot with that intent (rather than an attempt to free Posbrake in order to ensure Dove's payment from Posbrake for a successful circumvention of the Prediction,) it suggests that Dove secretly designed a ranged attack spell to try killing Posbrake (whom was visibly immune to ranged attacks) by happening to kill a flying unit she didn't know was coming while he was flying with Posbrake in hand instead of killing Posbrake with the red lightsaber. Unless she had some seriously specific Predictamancy helping her out, that plan requires some pretty specific unlikely circumstances to occur before it works.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 18
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:47 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Like "any time this unit attacks, it targets itself instead." Or "all attacks targeting this unit crit." Or "instead of fall mechanics triggering when this unit falls, they instead trigger when they eat a burrito."
    We don't actually know how Carnymancy works. Dove has been deliberately concealing details of her abilities, so we can't be sure that those are actual options for her, but even so I guess you're right. Since we know that Carnymancy can ensure that ranged attacks won't harm Posbrake, I'd bet a lot that Carnymancy can also ensure that a ranged attack croaks Posbrake. And I bet that Dove could have contacted Numloch in advance and arranged to be paid the bounty even though she didn't do the killing directly. She wouldn't need to prove that she did it because a contract would magically know and pay her automatically.

    Assuming all of that is correct, then the fact that Dove didn't do it must prove that Dove is honestly trying to help Homekey and isn't interested in the bounty, and therefore she somehow intended to help Posbrake by dropping him off the tower. We can add that to the list of things that people have done for mysterious reasons in this story. I hope all the secrets will be revealed before the story ends. How did Dove know that shooting Creen wouldn't kill Posbrake? Why did Posbrake go along with this plan even though it looks like a terrible plan and has worked out terribly so far? Do both Posbrake and Dove have terrible judgment and incredible luck?

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