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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:05 am 
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Thank you for finding that for me, since I was too lazy to, but was interested myself.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:41 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    The Archons left the hex. Landing wouldn't help, because the trap doesn't just target enemies in the airspace.

    I'm working under the assumption that the archons will return when Delkey starts their turn. Similarly, since it will only attack enemy units and the archons are currently allied with Homekey, I'm working under the assumption that King Posbrake will break alliance at some point. Also, while the lightning trap can target units on the ground, I'm working under the assumption that it can't target units indoors. If the archons enter the tower, interior corridors will do much nullify the advantages they have over basic infantry, such as range. As I said before, I'm basing assumption on assumption, which is a recipe for disaster, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

    Lamech wrote:
    Can't Digdoug direct them? Regardless after the pit trap he'll probably be the only surviving unit.

    The impression that I've gotten is that, as a trap, Digdoug can't direct it. It didn't seem like Sizemore really directed the traps Gobwin Knob used during Book 1, although he controlled collapsing the tunnels. Still, I'm basing it mostly on Digdoug's reference to automagical targeting. It makes it sound like the targets of the trap are more random.

    As for the pit trap, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't think it can be used on the roof of the tower. Making a pit there would just open up a shaft to the floors below. If you use something like lava, it seems like the type of thing that would set the tower on fire. The conversation between Peck and Digdoug led me to believe it could only be placed on the ground. Add to that Digdoug wondering if he could use a pit to survive jumping off the tower and Peck's reference to using it to cover their escape, and I believe Rob was foreshadowing that they will use it as something to jump into to escape the Delkey units on the top of the tower. As always, I may be completely off base.

    Ragewalker wrote:
    One thing about the lightning trap thats got me thinking... What if the closest rain hex on this turn happens to be Weatherbug?

    The new lightning trap drew its Shockmancy from the nearest rain hex, which wasn’t nearly as stormy as the one out in Weatherbug, so it wouldn’t be as effective. With luck, it might automagically target one or two of them individually.

    So, as Godzfirefly pointed out, it's not Weaherbug.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:47 am 
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    Xarx wrote:
    So far we've seen no evidence that weather ever changes in Erfworld.
    We shouldn't need evidence for that since it's the obvious default conclusion unless proven otherwise. The perpetual snow around Goodminton and more recently the endless rain of Weatherbug do give us cause to wonder if this might be a universal rule of Erfworld, but it would still be premature to jump to the conclusion that weather never changes just because we know of a few hexes where the weather is always the same.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:07 am 
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    We should come to that conclusion based on the way the characters talk about it, though. They refer to weather as a terrain feature - they use "rain hex" the same way as "forest hex" or "mountain hex". It's pretty clear from context, and from the examples we've seen.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:14 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Xarx wrote:
    So far we've seen no evidence that weather ever changes in Erfworld.
    We shouldn't need evidence for that since it's the obvious default conclusion unless proven otherwise. The perpetual snow around Goodminton and more recently the endless rain of Weatherbug do give us cause to wonder if this might be a universal rule of Erfworld, but it would still be premature to jump to the conclusion that weather never changes just because we know of a few hexes where the weather is always the same.


    Is the fact that they repeatedly say weather is hex based in the comic not sufficient? If not, why?

    In regard to Weatherbug, Digdoug talks (in narrative form) about how storm hexes were created by the Titans as the headwaters of rivers. And, of course, when Jillian is on the run, she took refuge in a rain hex, too. That seems pretty clear that weather never changes. Period.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:20 am 
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    Godzfirefly wrote:
    Is the fact that they repeatedly say weather is hex based in the comic not sufficient? If not, why?
    Because all it really says is that weather is hex based. If weather changes then it changes hex-by-hex rather than continuously. Maybe it can be sunny in one hex and then you step across the boundary and the next hex is pouring rain. Nothing about that says that it will still be raining tomorrow and forever.

    Godzfirefly wrote:
    In regard to Weatherbug, Digdoug talks (in narrative form) about how storm hexes were created by the Titans as the headwaters of rivers.
    There's no doubt that some hexes have permanent weather, but we have yet to hear anything that says that all hexes are that way. For all we know, permanent weather hexes may be very rare, just as consistent weather is rare in Stupidworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:32 am 
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    @Lilwik: If weather had never been mentioned in the comic, then your "obvious default conclusion" about it would have merit. But it has been mentioned, numerous times, and it has been made abundantly clear that weather does not work the same way in Erfworld as it does in Stupidworld.

    Therefore, all obvious default conclusions about it are invalid.

    Lilwik wrote:
    For all we know, permanent weather hexes may be very rare,

    If that were the case, it would be very odd that every single example we've seen of weather in Erfworld was an instance of this "rare" phenomenon.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:10 am 
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    We know that Posbrake and Dove have been getting together for night-time nookie sessions because that's what they've told us.
    i.e. the carnymancer and a Ruler with a known habit of hiding information from allies have told everyone that they've been spending a lot of time together because they enjoy each other's company.

    Yes. I think we can certainly be sure that's the only reason for their late-night sessions, and not because Posbrake is working with a carnymancer on secret plans to deal with the rest of the unrevealed predictions that he does not want the rest of his side to know about For Reasons. Because that does not sound like him at all.

    Yes, I think we can say with confidence that the orange light coming from Dove's hidey-hole is almost certainly something she's doing on her own initiative, and not pre-arranged at all.*

    ...

    How expensive do you think it is to hire Archons for a combat role? Even against a side that is known to be practically defenseless?

    It seems to me that it's one thing to hire 40 archons for a mock battle with almost no chance of casualties, and very much another to hire them for real. Or, to put it another way, if you had a weakened target that you figured would only need say, 5 or 6 archons to take down, how many people would be willing to pay five times as much for the extra 36 archons that just happen to be in the vicinity?

    Of course, there's always the chance that Charlie's dropped his bulk prices to the point where it's just as cheap to hire all of them, even though he's the only 'solution provider' in the space, because that's just the kind of nice thing he does...

    ...

    *Danger! Irony alert!

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:20 pm 
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    khamul wrote:

    How expensive do you think it is to hire Archons for a combat role? Even against a side that is known to be practically defenseless?

    It seems to me that it's one thing to hire 40 archons for a mock battle with almost no chance of casualties, and very much another to hire them for real. Or, to put it another way, if you had a weakened target that you figured would only need say, 5 or 6 archons to take down, how many people would be willing to pay five times as much for the extra 36 archons that just happen to be in the vicinity?

    Of course, there's always the chance that Charlie's dropped his bulk prices to the point where it's just as cheap to hire all of them, even though he's the only 'solution provider' in the space, because that's just the kind of nice thing he does...



    It probably IS a lot cheaper if the Archons aren't in real danger; what might happen is that only some of the archons were hired for full combat and so the returning force is much smaller than the one that left.
    That said, if Delkey is their real employer, it might explain it; Creen's behavior and the constant references to Homekey's poverty suggests that Delkey has cash to spare.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:42 pm 
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    I'm confused -- if Charlie is now part of the alliance, how can he and Delkey attack Homekey? I would assume the side attacking another would be the one breaking the alliance. So if Creen attacked, Delkey would be kicked from the 3-way alliance, leaving Homekey allied with Charlie. Given Creen's attempts at arm-twisting, I (obviously) must be wrong.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:16 pm 
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    dannward wrote:
    So if Creen attacked, Delkey would be kicked from the 3-way alliance, leaving Homekey allied with Charlie.
    That could be explained by alliances always being formed between two sides. Delkey and Homekey clearly have an alliance, and now Delkey and Charlescomm have an alliance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Homekey and Charlescomm have an alliance even though they would share the same turn. If Homekey and Charlescomm had an alliance then Delkey probably would need to break alliance with both of them in order to attack Homekey, but as things are Delkey only needs to break its alliance with Homekey.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:39 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    As has already been pointed out, this is DigDoug's story and big part of it is what happened to him in WeatherBug. He met Lady Chains and was about to fall in love with her, he was withdrawn and she won the battle posthumously by hiding a single stone golem. So perhaps there is a hidden stone golem somewhere, maybe Creen will bitch about not getting DD in Weatherbug after they set him up and Creen will end up as a greasy spot on the ground.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:06 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    dannward wrote:
    So if Creen attacked, Delkey would be kicked from the 3-way alliance, leaving Homekey allied with Charlie.
    That could be explained by alliances always being formed between two sides. Delkey and Homekey clearly have an alliance, and now Delkey and Charlescomm have an alliance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Homekey and Charlescomm have an alliance even though they would share the same turn. If Homekey and Charlescomm had an alliance then Delkey probably would need to break alliance with both of them in order to attack Homekey, but as things are Delkey only needs to break its alliance with Homekey.


    No, it's pretty clear that alliances can be with multiple sides. The Royal Alliance in Book 1 was numerous sides, and so is Lord Crush's alliance. That said, I don't see why it isn't possible for Delkey and Charlescomm to break alliance with Homekey as an allied unit.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:07 pm 
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    Godzfirefly wrote:
    No, it's pretty clear that alliances can be with multiple sides. The Royal Alliance in Book 1 was numerous sides, and so is Lord Crush's alliance. That said, I don't see why it isn't possible for Delkey and Charlescomm to break alliance with Homekey as an allied unit.
    I'm not saying that each side can only be allied with one other side at a time. I'm saying that each alliance is only between two sides at a time. Actually I'm not even saying that; I'm just pointing out that if it were true then it would explain things. There's no reason why the four sides of Lord Crush's union couldn't have everyone allied with everyone else, with each side being in three alliances; that doesn't say anything for or against my theory. The point is that Homekey never made an alliance with Charlescomm, so there is no good reason why Charlescomm should need to break alliance with Homekey.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:26 pm 
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    Hmmmm...I will acknowledge the possibility of your theory. And, I hope it's proven or disproved during this story.

    That said, Occum's Razor and the general tone of discussion about alliances suggest to me that an alliance is a single unit that all share a turn and which all members are a part of. If I were to bet quatloos on it, that's the theory I'd place mine on. It seems easier in general and doesn't really exclude Delkey's ability to kick Homekey out of the alliance to force a change in leadership.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:27 pm 
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    Quote:
    “Brother,” said Posbrake, “why has our alliance acquired a third side?”

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:33 am 
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    Godzfirefly wrote:
    It seems easier in general and doesn't really exclude Delkey's ability to kick Homekey out of the alliance to force a change in leadership.
    Isn't that the heart of the problem? How would Delkey kick Homekey out of the alliance? It makes sense that Delkey should have the ability to withdraw from the alliance, but what could give Delkey the power to make other sides withdraw from the alliance? It seems like this easier theory is missing a piece.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:39 am 
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    I assume the easy answer is that Charlie has a contract, regardless of if he is formally allied. If Delkey breaks, Charlie can just break as well, while honoring the contract and only targeting Homekey.

    I mean, it defeats the purpose of Charlie joining the alliance in the first place, so I guess it's not such a great answer, thinking about it.

    Edit: I've got it. Goodminton had two allies, which were also allied with each other. Goodminton broke with one, but stayed allied with the other. So maybe allies can draw you into alliances with other sides, but breaking with those sides doesn't remove the original alliance.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:03 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Godzfirefly wrote:
    It seems easier in general and doesn't really exclude Delkey's ability to kick Homekey out of the alliance to force a change in leadership.
    Isn't that the heart of the problem? How would Delkey kick Homekey out of the alliance? It makes sense that Delkey should have the ability to withdraw from the alliance, but what could give Delkey the power to make other sides withdraw from the alliance? It seems like this easier theory is missing a piece.


    "Shrugs" Like I said earlier, I don't see why Delkey and Charlescomm can't break alliance with Homekey as a single allied faction, as long as both Delkey and Charlescomm are in agreement. I feel like the suggestion that Delkey can't do so is unsubstantiated, and just adds additional complexity in order to support a more complex theory over a simpler theory. I don't feel like there is any clear reason to believe that any of the things you're asking how he'd do can't just be done, either. We certainly haven't had anything in the comic suggest one way or another that anything is or isn't permissible in the forming and breaking of alliances (apart from attacking an ally before breaking alliance, which has expressly been stated is forbidden.)

    In short, there only seems to be a missing piece if you want to think there's a missing piece.

    (That said, Lipkin does have a point about Goodminton...that's an odd case, too, with no clear explanation of the mechanics...maybe we won't get an explanation this time either; it'll just happen. That would be disappointing.)

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 17
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:20 am 
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    I would guess that, much like real life, there are different kinds of alliances. We saw with Crush that multiple sides can agree with a general contract of alliance, whereby every side is allied but without having to break alliance with each individual member. So I would assume there are also alliances where sides align to a side, which can break or make alliances itself. So it's not that Homekey is allied with Charlescomm so much as both are allied with Delkey. So in this instance, Delkey can break off the alliance with Homekey while maintaining the alliance with Charlie.


    I said alliance alot. I'm not sure it's a word anymore.

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