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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:25 pm 
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Shai_hulud wrote:
Seriously, am I really the only one who thought the Archons were actually saying "Zoom" out loud? Not as a spell, just for the lulz.

You might be. That sounds hilarious though!

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:32 pm 
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    Quote:
    Let me ask you; knowing what you know about Charlie, would you EVER consider hiring him? Are you fine with the fact that he will abide by the strict wording of the contract? Or are you too worried that he might find a loophole and screw you over to even want to risk hiring charlie?


    I would seriously regret having to hire him, but if in need of a service only he can provide I'd do it. Sure, he is big on finding loopholes and screwing people over, but he does follow the contract. If I sign a contract for him to send a batch of Archons in to conquer a city, he will hold to that agreement. I'm pretty sure that is where his customers come from. When you need a sudden influx of powerful flyers and casters, Charlie will provide them for the right price and they will follow orders while the contract stands.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:57 pm 
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    Silversought wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Seriously, am I really the only one who thought the Archons were actually saying "Zoom" out loud? Not as a spell, just for the lulz.

    You might be. That sounds hilarious though!

    Seconded on both parts!
    (name here) wrote:
    Quote:
    Let me ask you; knowing what you know about Charlie, would you EVER consider hiring him? Are you fine with the fact that he will abide by the strict wording of the contract? Or are you too worried that he might find a loophole and screw you over to even want to risk hiring charlie?


    I would seriously regret having to hire him, but if in need of a service only he can provide I'd do it. Sure, he is big on finding loopholes and screwing people over, but he does follow the contract. If I sign a contract for him to send a batch of Archons in to conquer a city, he will hold to that agreement. I'm pretty sure that is where his customers come from. When you need a sudden influx of powerful flyers and casters, Charlie will provide them for the right price and they will follow orders while the contract stands.
    Personally, if I was the sort of side that had the funds to, I'd hire him fairly often (if I wasn't trying to compete with him that is). Actually, even if I didn't have a bunch of funds, I'd likely hire him for smaller things. Intel can be as useful as an army at times, and learning that the archons saw an enemy army marching towards one of my cities could be very worth doing. Depending on what kind of rate I could get, I might even do a retainer fee of sorts in exchange for him passing along any intel he happens to get about my area.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:32 pm 
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    People are looking at a contract with Charlie like a contract between two commercial companies, when it is more like contracts between unfriendly nations. Countries that are defacto enemies can and do make deals with each other. But they do not assume the other side is in any way looking out for their interests.

    Charlie has a reputation for honoring his contracts. Not for being your friend. Like a rival nation, he will do whatever he can to gain an advantage for himself within the letter of the contract. And it should go without saying that he will not be looking out for your interests at all in anything outside the scope of your contracts with him. Just like how two countries that have a treaty standardizing their common boarder to avoid boarder disputes will still be spying on each other, because that is outside the scope of the contract.

    For example, Jillian mind scrub. What I think happened there was he had been in communication with and had compromised the Healer before they ever went inside Jillian's Head-Space. The fine print in the contract was that whatever was necessary and proper to heal Jillian was anything both Charlie and Betsy agreed to. Since Charlie can read people, he made a sales pitch; he will agree that curbing Jillians Warrior Mindset is "necessary" if Betsy will agree that giving Jillian Laser Guided Amnesia is "necessary"

    It was probably an easy sell also. Betsy's (fucked up) sense of duty probably thought this was helping Jillian/FAQ, but Banhammer had refused something much less invasive constraining the capacity of FAQs future ruler, so if he ever found out what she had done, she faced the very real possibility of punishment, including Disbandment. And since that would mean harmfully depriving FAQ of Betsy herself, her duty required her to mind rape away Jillian's memory of her being mind rapes. Right? The poor patsy may have even thought it was her idea.

    But even if this came out, I doubt it would really harm Charlies reputation. He had gamed a contract when the other side had a resident specialist in contracts that okayed it. It was their own damn fault would be the common belief. Charlie is like a very useful demon. Powerful, but plays by the rules. If someone calls him up and he bites off their head because they messed up the incantation, he will still be summoned by someone else, because Charlie has been successfully summoned many times before, and the few that got burned only had that happened because they were sloppy. But YOU are smarter than they were! Right? ^_^

    Until Charlies back is REALLY against the wall, and you find he is willing to break any and all contracts instead of just up and dying. Because some things are more important than a good reputation, And for Charlie, one of those things might be his own skin. And if anyone has the capability to side step a magically binding contract, it is a Carneymancer. Just, not in this story.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:59 pm 
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    Denar wrote:
    Mrtyuh wrote:
    Well, Creen is armed with a sword. That isn't a ranged weapon.


    Not understanding you. Yet you agreed with Montecristo who said a similar thing?


    I think Mrtyuh's not disagreeing with you but rather pointing out that Creen, as a melee combatant, would not be hindered by Dove's spell if he does end up turning on Posbrake.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:50 pm 
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    bpzinn wrote:
    People are looking at a contract with Charlie like a contract between two commercial companies, when it is more like contracts between unfriendly nations. Countries that are defacto enemies can and do make deals with each other. But they do not assume the other side is in any way looking out for their interests.


    Well, but contracts between unfriendly nations really are a rare case. They only happen when the nations absolutely have to work together or they're screwed.

    I would guess that Charlie wants to be seen much more like a commercial company than as an enemy who you grudgingly work with because you have no other choice.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:55 pm 
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    bpzinn wrote:
    But even if this came out, I doubt it would really harm Charlies reputation. He had gamed a contract when the other side had a resident specialist in contracts that okayed it. It was their own damn fault would be the common belief.
    Yeah, this is the other thing about it. From our point of view we see Charlie screwing Jills over. But Betsy helped. Charlie will just be "I had their healomancer looking over my shoulder! How could I have betrayed them! I can hardly be faulted for trusting one of their commanders."

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:19 pm 
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    Yeah, I'd agree.

    I guess the next conclusion would be that I expect appearances to be more important than whether charlie actually followed the spirit of the contract. I expect that whatever happens here today, Digdoug will come out of it thinking that Charlie is a good, trustworthy mercenary to hire. (Even if that's not actually the case!) So if Charlie screws them, he'll do it in a subtle enough way that they don't even realize they've been had.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:18 am 
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    It's worth noting that while stuff like what Homekey is doing is VERY risky in that even if Charlie honors the letter of the contract, he might find loopholes to violate its spirit, other contracts are relatively much safer. If you hire Charlie to do Thinkgrams for diplomatic purposes, the most he can do is eavesdrop on your messages, which might be a problem if it's a Thinkgram to a trusted ally, but if you're just negotiating with a neutral or enemy side there isn't going to be anything in those messages that is secret anyways. Buying information from him is even safer, although still not risk free; while Charlie probably screwed someone over to get that information, its difficult to see how you might get screwed over by buying it. Even if Charlie finds a way to do it, it would certainly be a lot harder to take advantage of sending intel to a client than having a whole army parked in a client's airspace.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:56 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Seriously, am I really the only one who thought the Archons were actually saying "Zoom" out loud? Not as a spell, just for the lulz.

    No, I also totally pictured the archons flying around saying, "Zoom!"

    junovalkyrie wrote:
    Denar wrote:
    Mrtyuh wrote:
    Well, Creen is armed with a sword. That isn't a ranged weapon.


    Not understanding you. Yet you agreed with Montecristo who said a similar thing?


    I think Mrtyuh's not disagreeing with you but rather pointing out that Creen, as a melee combatant, would not be hindered by Dove's spell if he does end up turning on Posbrake.

    Exactly. You were listing various potential Chekhov's guns, and Rob has gone out of his way to draw attention to Creen's sword on multiple occasions, so I was adding it to the list. While the Carnymancy spell protects Posbrake from ranged attacks, it will not protect him from Creen's sword. As I said, I doubt that the dramatic turn will be Charlie blatantly breaching his contract, or at least I hope it isn't. In my mind, the most likely scenario involves Creen trying to use the confusion of the battle to settle matters with his brother. There is a very likely possibility that I'm wrong, but that's the path I see the story taking.

    ftl wrote:
    Yeah, I'd agree.

    I guess the next conclusion would be that I expect appearances to be more important than whether charlie actually followed the spirit of the contract. I expect that whatever happens here today, Digdoug will come out of it thinking that Charlie is a good, trustworthy mercenary to hire. (Even if that's not actually the case!) So if Charlie screws them, he'll do it in a subtle enough way that they don't even realize they've been had.

    That's what I think as well.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:16 pm 
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    Oh I see, yes. Sorry, I was still going down the line of "Creen might still cause trouble by personally engaging the archons (there are fliers he can stack with and lead), and then discover that it's all a sham", based on his odd Flying Special (I thought you were saying he wouldn't be able to do that, because the sword isn't a ranged weapon). Yeah I wouldn't put regicide past Creen, especially as he seems to be being "shown up" by the superior military command of his brother/non-royal chief warlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:26 am 
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    I apologize as well. You mentioned Dove in the arrow loop and the pit-trap scroll, and I became fixated on them and disassociated them from the surrounding context.

    I doubt Creen would personally engage the archons, though. First, he doesn't seem the type to lead a charge. Second, there's nothing to stop the archons from simply blasting him. Their contract with Posbrake enacts a penalty for croaking Homekey units. Delkey units probably aren't covered. Of course, that's working on the assumption that the archons can differentiate between the two.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:21 am 
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    I wonder if Homekey has to pay much more per killed archon than it costs to pop them. Because Charlie IS a carnymancer, and he could well have cast something like "For this turn, all hits by the enemy will deal maximum damage" just to turn archons into money and/or bankrupt Homekey for some other side's (Numloch?) benefit.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:33 pm 
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    Denizen wrote:
    I wonder if Homekey has to pay much more per killed archon than it costs to pop them. Because Charlie IS a carnymancer, and he could well have cast something like "For this turn, all hits by the enemy will deal maximum damage" just to turn archons into money and/or bankrupt Homekey for some other side's (Numloch?) benefit.

    While I don't think it has been stated outright, I don't think units cost anything to pop, just have to start paying their upkeep. So the only real cost of losing an archon is the time to replace them and the money that would be lost in the interim. Well, and whatever exp they may have gotten.

    Edit: also, did we just see people apologize for a misunderstanding on an Internet forum?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:38 pm 
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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:05 pm 
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    Denizen wrote:
    I wonder if Homekey has to pay much more per killed archon than it costs to pop them. Because Charlie IS a carnymancer, and he could well have cast something like "For this turn, all hits by the enemy will deal maximum damage" just to turn archons into money and/or bankrupt Homekey for some other side's (Numloch?) benefit.

    Unless Charlie is already spending his rule breaking just keeping himself alive and altering the pop rate and upkeep costs of his Archon fleet.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:01 pm 
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    We have been told, I think, that the 3 Archons spawned per each two turns is a feature of the Arkendish, and not a product of Carnymancy. I don't know why I would question that; accelerating production is known to be a Turnamancy spell. It's also reasonable to assume that Charlie is, personally, quite high level. We know that he was a Ruler prior to acquiring the Arkendish, so he must also have been an Heir and likely the Chief Caster of his side. If he's spending juice on Carnymancy at all (rather than on Thinkamancy, which may require his juice) he's likely to be exceedingly capable at it and able to cast multiple spells per turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:48 pm 
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    twhitt wrote:
    We have been told, I think, that the 3 Archons spawned per each two turns is a feature of the Arkendish, and not a product of Carnymancy. I don't know why I would question that; accelerating production is known to be a Turnamancy spell. It's also reasonable to assume that Charlie is, personally, quite high level. We know that he was a Ruler prior to acquiring the Arkendish, so he must also have been an Heir and likely the Chief Caster of his side. If he's spending juice on Carnymancy at all (rather than on Thinkamancy, which may require his juice) he's likely to be exceedingly capable at it and able to cast multiple spells per turn.

    His 'natural' spawn rate is 1 archon every turn, with a Turnamancer being able to boost that to 3 every 2 turns. There is some speculation that his 1/turn rate is already boosted from normal by Carnymancy/Arkendish, but there really isn't anything known about that. They do seem roughly on par with dwagons, which take much longer to pop.

    As for level, we know that he is older than Olive, and Olive was level 11 several hundred turns ago, so it stands to reason that unless the hero buds dropped his level or hindered his experience gain he should be at least level 11 as well, possibly even higher than that, though 11 is already a near mythic number.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:52 pm 
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    Silversought wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Seriously, am I really the only one who thought the Archons were actually saying "Zoom" out loud? Not as a spell, just for the lulz.

    You might be. That sounds hilarious though!


    I did, too. Reminds me of a game I used to play (the more people with, the better) on tours. When we were walking along a road and cars went past, we said it and made gestures like we're observing something incredible "zoom"-ing by. It's the most fun with border patrols :D

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 16
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:31 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    twhitt wrote:
    We have been told, I think, that the 3 Archons spawned per each two turns is a feature of the Arkendish, and not a product of Carnymancy. I don't know why I would question that; accelerating production is known to be a Turnamancy spell. It's also reasonable to assume that Charlie is, personally, quite high level. We know that he was a Ruler prior to acquiring the Arkendish, so he must also have been an Heir and likely the Chief Caster of his side. If he's spending juice on Carnymancy at all (rather than on Thinkamancy, which may require his juice) he's likely to be exceedingly capable at it and able to cast multiple spells per turn.

    His 'natural' spawn rate is 1 archon every turn, with a Turnamancer being able to boost that to 3 every 2 turns. There is some speculation that his 1/turn rate is already boosted from normal by Carnymancy/Arkendish, but there really isn't anything known about that. They do seem roughly on par with dwagons, which take much longer to pop.

    As for level, we know that he is older than Olive, and Olive was level 11 several hundred turns ago, so it stands to reason that unless the hero buds dropped his level or hindered his experience gain he should be at least level 11 as well, possibly even higher than that, though 11 is already a near mythic number.
    I'm not sure I think that has to be true. Olive is an experienced combat caster, with extensive battlefield experience and a phenomenal number of kills from traps, summoned minions, and direct badassitude. During her entire lifetime, Charlie has been a Ruler, which means he's probably been more homebound. I'm suggesting that there's very little evidence for this, not that it is or isn't true. We just have no idea if Charlie has done anything to gain levels in the last several thousands of turns. Being confined to his tower as he is, it could go either way.

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