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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:16 am 
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Berserkas wrote:
Sylvia could see Artemis's level too.
Since we now know without a doubt that warlords can see each other's levels, and almost as surely that warlords can see the levels of casters, but that Digdoug can't see Dove's level, I think the natural conclusion is that casters are incapable of doing some things that warlords can do. That's hardly shocking. Casters are almost totally devoted to the study of their discipline and the ability to judge the level of other people is surely not part of that discipline, except perhaps for a Signamancer. Maybe Digdoug could see Dove's level if she were a Dirtamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:56 am 
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    Maybe the ability to see level is a special that all units with the commander attribute get, so all warlords have it, and that casters get when they're promoted to Chief or attain Master rank.

    That would explain how Janis can see that Sizemore levelled.

    Alternatively, I think the derived stat just about makes sense. Sylvia knowing enough about warlady combat stat progression to be able to peg Artemis' level seems plausible. Digdoug not knowing enough about Carniemancer stat progression to be unable to peg Dove's level is plausible. Janis knowing enough about Dirtmancer stat progression to be able to tell both that he's levelled and what his chief warlord bonus is - again, just about plausible.

    Especially if warlord stat progression is very predictable, but caster stat progression varies massively between caster types - which would make a certain amount of sense.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:54 am 
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    khamul wrote:
    Janis knowing enough about Dirtmancer stat progression to be able to tell both that he's levelled and what his chief warlord bonus is - again, just about plausible.
    I'm not sure that's a matter of knowing Dirtamancy. It could also be a matter of Signamancy. Signamancy seems to be the magic of what people's appearances say about them, so judging levels seems like a perfect fit for Signamancy, and Signamancy is a discipline of Hippiemancy. The idea that Janis knows a little Dirtamancy is full of potential doubt, but surely very few people doubt that Janis knows Signamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:21 am 
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    Although, if casters can't see levels, and Parson can't see levels, it lends credence to the argument that Parson is a caster.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:45 am 
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    Last paragraph of Lord Crush 2 http://www.erfworld.com/2013/12/lord-crush-part-2/ could suggest that commanders can only see the level of enemy units?
    Or at least, there seem to be some "enemy stats" that you don't see on allies, which might explain why DigDoug can't see Dove's level, while Artemis / Sylvia can see each others.
    Slight wrinkle in that DigDoug and Dove met in the magic kingdom unallied, and Janis saw Saizemore's level change there, but like someone else said, that could be signamancy. (Or maybe DigDoug was too distracted to take notice of it before Dove allied with them?)

    (Or possibly "enemy stats" just means that the stats turn red to your eyes or something, and this doesn't help the discussion at all)
    ((Or maybe Rob wanted to add a bit of mystery to Dove / dramatic tension by obscuring her level, and overlooked the stats vision))

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:46 am 
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    khamul wrote:
    Maybe the ability to see level is a special that all units with the commander attribute get, so all warlords have it, and that casters get when they're promoted to Chief or attain Master rank.

    That would explain how Janis can see that Sizemore levelled.

    Alternatively, I think the derived stat just about makes sense. Sylvia knowing enough about warlady combat stat progression to be able to peg Artemis' level seems plausible. Digdoug not knowing enough about Carniemancer stat progression to be unable to peg Dove's level is plausible. Janis knowing enough about Dirtmancer stat progression to be able to tell both that he's levelled and what his chief warlord bonus is - again, just about plausible.

    Especially if warlord stat progression is very predictable, but caster stat progression varies massively between caster types - which would make a certain amount of sense.


    I like this theory. Consider that Warlords and commanders are meant to be the "Leads" of the campaign, they're the hub for the intel the player is able to glean from the other side during play, without a commander or warlord in the stack, the side is unable to differentiate the actual strengths of the other sides forces. It's a check in the system.

    Casters would be able to gain the ability of a commander as they level, Digdug is probably just too low of a level currently to be able to figure out levels on his own yet. Janis has enough levels to gain the feat.

    that, or Hippiemancers can just see levels, and Carnymancers levels are hidden from everyone but their Ruler.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:53 am 
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    SNfinity wrote:
    Digdoug can't see Dove's level because level isn't one of the stats you can see, as of Parson's Klog #4: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg


    One more kick to the curb-stomping your post has received... In that exact klog, parson mentions everybody knows his CWL bonus is 2. Meaning they can see it, but it isn't shown in the bogroll stat plate. I think that the example given was incomplete. There's bound to be more stats that are seen/known than the 5 in the plate.

    Sadly I think this episode is going to drive a retconjuration.

    *edit*
    Jallorn wrote:
    Although, if casters can't see levels, and Parson can't see levels, it lends credence to the argument that Parson is a caster.


    and that pre-curb-stomps my post. That will teach me to read all of a thread before quoting...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:56 am 
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    I actually wouldn't call that particular aspect contrary evidence. The effect of Parson's CWL bonus is visible, meaning that I believe they deduced what his bonus was through seeing how much units' stats increased. The bonus by itself isn't explicitly visible.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:11 am 
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    That's a lot of deduction then. Signamancy theory aside, Janis knew both Sizemore's level and CWL bonus independently.

    After tBfGK, Janis notes that sizemore gained 2 levels since their last encounter. At this time Sizemore had Parson's CWL bonus. Later, during the battle for jetstone, not only does she notice the the changed CWL bonus, but Sizemore reacts almost shamefully, as if its a fact he knows she can see. But she still has to ask if the new CWL bonus is parson.

    If all one has to work off of is deriving another stat, the math gets complicated, is the unit a level 5 with a cwl bonus of 2 or a level 3 with a cwl bonus of 4?

    *edit*
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F145.jpg
    This infers that wanda at least can see the units level, but that may be a function of either croakamancy or decryption(pliers attunement) required to reanimate a unit. But she expects that parson can see his level, and he's using his glasses to confirm her statement.

    Parson CAN see upkeep, which also wasn't on the bogroll stat plate.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:18 am 
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    I think it must be a derived stat, and one that everyone can math out very easily for most units since regular soldiers don't have wacky force multipliers in general. Casters and Chiefs are where stats get weird. Since Digdoug has basically never met another caster, it's possible he just doesn't know how to look at Dove having a +16 Atk (+8 Hits/+4 Carny-warny/+3 Wibbly-Wobbly/+1 Deflection) and know that it means she is a level 8, or something like that.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:35 am 
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    Well Janis is highly familiar with Sizemore, so it's not nearly as complicated as you make it out to be Techno. For one, Janis may have merely been told (by him) that he's leveled. And if the stats change based on CWL bonus, she can literally just watch his bonus change before her very eyes and know it's value.

    However, Wanda/Parson discussing the Decrypted IS more compelling evidence that these factors should be visible. It strikes me as a little odd that Upkeep would be visible, perhaps that was just ebcause Parson is CWL, and Wanda can sense her own croakamancy-related units, but Level definitely makes sense.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:47 am 
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    technojunkie wrote:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F145.jpg
    This infers that wanda at least can see the units level, but that may be a function of either croakamancy or decryption(pliers attunement) required to reanimate a unit. But she expects that parson can see his level, and he's using his glasses to confirm her statement.

    Parson CAN see upkeep, which also wasn't on the bogroll stat plate.


    Parson asked about upkeep. There was a question mark at the end of that statement.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:11 pm 
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    You have more than one stat to work with, though.

    I think it's a safe bet that Chief Warlord bonus boosts 'combat', and may boost 'Defense'. But it may well not boost 'hits'.
    So if you see a Dirtmancer with +6 hits and +6 combat over last time your saw them, and you know they get +2 hits per level, it's a fair bet they've gained 3 levels.

    If they've got +2 hits, but +6 combat, odds are that's one level and +4 off changes to chief warlord bonus.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:29 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    technojunkie wrote:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F145.jpg
    This infers that wanda at least can see the units level, but that may be a function of either croakamancy or decryption(pliers attunement) required to reanimate a unit. But she expects that parson can see his level, and he's using his glasses to confirm her statement.

    Parson CAN see upkeep, which also wasn't on the bogroll stat plate.


    Parson asked about upkeep. There was a question mark at the end of that statement.


    There was a question mark, but that doesn't necessarily make the statement an interrogative one. To me the statement is an observation seeking confirmation. Then again he may just have been making an assumption that a decrypted unit has zero upkeep like an uncroaked one...

    I'll admit it's less than conclusive at this point.


    Hmm...

    That makes one wonder how MAggie knew bogroll levelled?
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F132.jpg

    Is level tied to thinkamancy? Or was she looking at bogroll's g-string?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:41 pm 
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    So.. carnymancy is pretty darn awesome! Breaking the one rule that a lightning trap has to be in the same hex to trap the power is pretty bad ass.

    I wonder what other things they can do - maybe have Dig create golems out of air (air defense, sentries, spies?) or water golems to help further defend Weatherbug? I'm not sure what the rules are for golems but that might allow him to make more and/or more powerful golems. Still.. pretty damn impressive!

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:53 pm 
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    Dig not knowing her level could be a simple case of him not checking. I kinda doubt that everyone has that data floating in front of their faces all the time for every single person they look at, it'd get very distracting and make combat potentially difficult. There might be a way to turn it off, or at least 'minimize' it so it shows as little as possible, and he forgot to check her level, or maybe is so unused to using that sense, he hasn't learned how.

    Also, for those comparing Parson's stat vision to other people's, remember that his stat vision shows names, but neither Maggie's nor Stanley's does, since neither of them could remember Jack's name, but Parson saw it when he looked at him with the glasses through a thinkagram.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:09 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    Dig not knowing her level could be a simple case of him not checking. I kinda doubt that everyone has that data floating in front of their faces all the time for every single person they look at, it'd get very distracting and make combat potentially difficult. There might be a way to turn it off, or at least 'minimize' it so it shows as little as possible, and he forgot to check her level, or maybe is so unused to using that sense, he hasn't learned how.


    I really doubt that. I don't think normal Erfworlders see the data in the same way as Parson does. More likely they just see it as part of the Signamancy, in the same way we might look at a person and see they're blonde or short. Or in the way a person might hear a voice and recognize the accent...we don't need floating stats to recognize this data, and why should Erfworlders?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:04 pm 
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    Another possibility is that the ability to tell information about a unit is determined by some kind of perception stat. We know that units make spot checks to find veiled units. There might be the same stat or a similar stat used to learn information about units you can see. Maybe you can only get partial information, based on how well your check rolled.

    High level units like Jillian might have good perception stats, so they get complete information pretty much all the time. A lower level unit like Digdoug might not have as good a perception stat, and miss out on details.

    Also, some units might have a higher difficulty check to learn information about them than others. And the observing unit might have circumstance or knowledge penalties/bonuses to their check, unique to their unit type or gained from life experience.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:07 pm 
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    khamul wrote:
    Maybe the ability to see level is a special that all units with the commander attribute get, so all warlords have it, and that casters get when they're promoted to Chief or attain Master rank.

    That would explain how Janis can see that Sizemore levelled.

    Alternatively, I think the derived stat just about makes sense. Sylvia knowing enough about warlady combat stat progression to be able to peg Artemis' level seems plausible. Digdoug not knowing enough about Carniemancer stat progression to be unable to peg Dove's level is plausible. Janis knowing enough about Dirtmancer stat progression to be able to tell both that he's levelled and what his chief warlord bonus is - again, just about plausible.

    Especially if warlord stat progression is very predictable, but caster stat progression varies massively between caster types - which would make a certain amount of sense.

    The benefit of quoting or citing when paraphrasing is that it reduces the risk of misattribution of ideas. I know you weren't asking, but sometimes I like to throw out reading rainbow moments about academic integrity.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 13
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:26 pm 
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    So. What happens to the lightning in the hex the trap is linked to?
    Edit*
    And for that matter, what happens when the trap gets powered up?

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