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 Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:50 pm 
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Roketter wrote:
Specially Wanda, the authors kept extra-care to keep her out of view.


Yes, and I have no idea why so many people assign qualities (evil, religious extremist, big bad) to her without any actual evidence beyond the fact that she is participating in the campaign.

She is not the overlord of her side. She is presumably following orders--something that is true of any unit on her side, decrypted or not, including Parson! Prior to Book 1, the Tool was already set on expansion, if for no other reason than to secure other Arkentools. Maybe Wanda gave him that idea in the first place, but I'm thinking he didn't need much convincing.

We know that she wanted the pliers because of the destiny a predictamancer gave her (a reliable source, if there ever was one). We know that decryption is "glorious" to her--but whether the admiration is primarily religious or primarily as an intellectual curiosity is left unsaid (remember that she loves croakamancy for its own sake). We know she believes there will be more blood, loss and pain in both her own and in Parson's future, which is not really a difficult prediction given there is a Book 2.

...And that's it!

We don't know what she really thinks about Titanic mandates--she could have just been using that as a useful argument to control Stanley's behavior. She (and the author) deliberately obscures her thoughts and motives so we don't know anything beyond that she is secretive, clever and unreadable. The only times she appeared in the summer updates, she didn't say anything or do anything besides engage in offscreen combat. The summer updates revealed that she trusts Parson's judgement, she barely acknowledges Ansom and she doesn't have anything to say to Queen Bea. No other action or interaction.

I am not so keen on the idea of Wanda being the Big Bad.
I am not so keen on the idea of Charlie being the Big Bad.
I am not so keen on the idea of there being ANY Big Bad at all.

Maybe that's just a role reserved for the Titans themselves. Or maybe the Arkentools. Whatever it is, I expect the real conflict to be bigger than Erfworld politics.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:53 pm 
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    Darkside007 wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    LordDarksea, rest assured, that's an original take on the Parson/Charlie duel in this update.

    Ishma3l wrote:
    Second: I may be the only one, but does anyone else think Charlie might be a girl, from the same world as Parson, and created the Male Charlie Persona as a veil? What if she was summoned in a similar fashion, found the Arken Dish, brainwashed her boss into declaring her heir, had the boss take long walk off a short balcony, and is now living a life of leisure with a fleet and an in-joke?


    Boop no. Charlie is a Unicorn.


    Charlie is Sparklelord!


    He killed Saline IV! It all makes sense now.....

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:54 pm 
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    goofjuice wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Boop no. Charlie is a Unicorn.


    That would fit into the theory he is from another dimension, hopefully those other unicorns didn't follow him.


    Hopefully?! That would be awesome, seeing Charlie tormented to go on some insane quest for the Candy Mountain or some-such.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:01 pm 
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    Unaroyal did use scorched earth tactics in the end. She dropped the city down to lvl 1 upgraded all of her units sent them outside dumped all her casters with a promise not to work for anyone, but the royal coalition and then suicided. Wanda got a lvl 1 city with zero units no casters and all because they decided to talk first. If the royals use this strategy they will make Wanda's attacks a diminishing return.

    Charlie tosses 600+ Archons and assorted dolls at GK and it will fall. Remember most of the Dwagons are out being used as part of the transportation system. I doubt Charles wants people to know just how many Archons Charles has, but Parsons knows now...

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:05 pm 
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    gaiaswill wrote:
    Yes, and I have no idea why so many people assign qualities (evil, religious extremist, big bad) to her without any actual evidence beyond the fact that she is participating in the campaign.


    Ahem. Wanda is arguably evil, because she has no scruples, is manipulative, went over thousands of corpses to get the Pliers (her admission) etc. In other words, she has ambition unfettered by principle, which in fictionland (and not only) is a pretty good indicator of evil.

    Decorus wrote:
    Charlie tosses 600+ Archons and assorted dolls at GK and it will fall. Remember most of the Dwagons are out being used as part of the transportation system. I doubt Charles wants people to know just how many Archons Charles has, but Parsons knows now...


    That number is like money. It's theoretical. Charlie has little, so to speak, liquidity, as most of his archons are scattered all over Erfworld and embroiled in contracts that could be costly to Charlie and ?'s reputation to break.

    So effectively, Charlie does NOT have 600 archons to send towards GK, not for a long while.

    As for this:
    Decorus wrote:
    Unaroyal did use scorched earth tactics in the end. She dropped the city down to lvl 1 upgraded all of her units sent them outside dumped all her casters with a promise not to work for anyone, but the royal coalition and then suicided. Wanda got a lvl 1 city with zero units no casters and all because they decided to talk first. If the royals use this strategy they will make Wanda's attacks a diminishing return.


    Meh. It also saved Wanda the trouble of sieging the city so all in all, not that great a maneuver. Queen Bea did it out of honour or repulsion more like, and her example will be followed for the same reasons. Not because it is that more efficient.

    Also, in Erfworld where supplies magically arrive to the Decrypted that don't need them, scorched Earth is useless and self-destructive.

    Now, on the other hand, if the Royals start sending suicide bombers at the Decrypted, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

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    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:08 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    goofjuice wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Boop no. Charlie is a Unicorn.


    That would fit into the theory he is from another dimension, hopefully those other unicorns didn't follow him.


    Hopefully?! That would be awesome, seeing Charlie tormented to go on some insane quest for the Candy Mountain or some-such.


    he'd be screwed if he lost another kidney.

    anyways I'm with BLANDCorporatio on this one that charlie is a unicorn.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:12 pm 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    Also, it is likely that uncroaked take a big penalty when fighting against the wielder of the Arkenpliers. This acts as an offset against the advantage that you don't need to worry about her ending up with an even more powerful army after fighting her.

    Wanda isn't everywhere there are decrypted. Especially when it's your own turn, not GK's, so she can use the Dwagon Express to come. We've seen earlier that it was there modus operandi for most operations: attack with the troops but without Wanda, and get Wanda on the battlefield once victory is obtained and there's no risk anymore. If she moves with a column, attack the hexes where she's not. Attack the cities where she's not.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:14 pm 
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    I had a nice long response written up, then my internet connection fell for a couple hours. Sigh, I'll try to rewrite it...

    1) I still think Erfworld cities are governed by a Civ 4 maintenance mechanic, meaning a cost paid by every city based on total number of cities, which means the upkeep cost per city gets much higher for each additional city. This could be in the form [constant]*[number of cities]^2, or something similar. At a certain point, adding another city would cost a side schmuckers, and any additional city beyond that would get very prohibitively expensive. This would explain a lot, not just the diminishing comment of this update. Like why no super sides have emerged, as would be inevitable in an actual wargame. Why royal sides would ever want to split off and form new sides. Why King Saline IV never ordered FAQ's cities rebuild after they were conquered by Stanley.

    2) Knowing what we know from an earlier update, I'm pretty sure we know what Charlie is up to. He was scheming with Jillian to find a way to croak Stanley. Now, usually if you're plotting to kill somebody, you don't tip off his lieutenant. To explain this, Charlie was actually putting out a feeler to see if Parson would be interested in the conspiracy. Hence, the "croak a tool" comment. With an inside man, croaking Stanley would get a lot easier, with the side benefit of having a chance to acquire Parson and his bracer. Despite the fact that Parson makes it clear he doesn't believe the new mandate, he throws Charlie's very subtle hint back into his face. Hence, Charlie has lost patience with Parson and won't be missed should he get caught in the line of fire when the blow lands (if they can pull it off).

    3) Now, the reason Charlie rejects the Arkentool mandate is in his personality. He doesn't have ideals, ideals are what other people pay him to trying to uphold. Hence, he's developed contempt for people who act out of anything except self interest. Sure, he'd be a big winner if Arkentool attunement meant something divine, but it would also be a betrayal of his deeply cynical world outlook as he'd become something he disliked: naive, irrational, etc. Some may think he's smarter or more rational for his approach than, for example, royals. I don't. I just see him as a war profiteer.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:16 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    How old is Erfworld anyway? Assuming it is older, much older than Charlie (reasonable, no?), "roughly at the same time" means what it does on Earth. That these people were born close enough to each other in time to be contemporaries. And on Erfworld, life can be rather short as well.

    But a unit that hides or levels up enough could survive indefinitely. See: Wanda in FAQ.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:19 pm 
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    gaiaswill wrote:
    Roketter wrote:
    Specially Wanda, the authors kept extra-care to keep her out of view.


    Yes, and I have no idea why so many people assign qualities (evil, religious extremist, big bad) to her without any actual evidence beyond the fact that she is participating in the campaign.

    She is not the overlord of her side. She is presumably following orders--something that is true of any unit on her side, decrypted or not, including Parson! Prior to Book 1, the Tool was already set on expansion, if for no other reason than to secure other Arkentools. Maybe Wanda gave him that idea in the first place, but I'm thinking he didn't need much convincing.

    We know that she wanted the pliers because of the destiny a predictamancer gave her (a reliable source, if there ever was one). We know that decryption is "glorious" to her--but whether the admiration is primarily religious or primarily as an intellectual curiosity is left unsaid (remember that she loves croakamancy for its own sake). We know she believes there will be more blood, loss and pain in both her own and in Parson's future, which is not really a difficult prediction given there is a Book 2.

    ...And that's it!

    We don't know what she really thinks about Titanic mandates--she could have just been using that as a useful argument to control Stanley's behavior. She (and the author) deliberately obscures her thoughts and motives so we don't know anything beyond that she is secretive, clever and unreadable. The only times she appeared in the summer updates, she didn't say anything or do anything besides engage in offscreen combat. The summer updates revealed that she trusts Parson's judgement, she barely acknowledges Ansom and she doesn't have anything to say to Queen Bea. No other action or interaction.

    I am not so keen on the idea of Wanda being the Big Bad.
    I am not so keen on the idea of Charlie being the Big Bad.
    I am not so keen on the idea of there being ANY Big Bad at all.

    Maybe that's just a role reserved for the Titans themselves. Or maybe the Arkentools. Whatever it is, I expect the real conflict to be bigger than Erfworld politics.

    I agree but I do think that Wanda is getting a bit full of herself and she's going to make a mistake, Hopefully she won't get croaked or if she does she'll "lich" herself which would give her a +8 bonus. In Erf and Earth there is no good or bad it is all a matter of perspective, Stanley and Slately view themselves as good which can't be true at the same time. I think the 2nd book will unveil Wanda and Sizemore a bit and so since it is tomorrow I'm not going to comment again today :arrow: .

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    Last edited by BoopingCynic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:21 pm 
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    I think the reason Charlie doesn't like the "tool mandate" idea is fear. There are dozens of royal sides (at least). There are two "tool" sides.
    Those odds suck. It's even worse when the other "tool" side hates you.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:24 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    I think the reason Charlie doesn't like the "tool mandate" idea is fear. There are dozens of royal sides (at least). There are two "tool" sides.
    Those odds suck. It's even worse when the other "tool" side hates you.


    That could be a reason, but that's not how he explains his objection to Parson. He doesn't say its a bad idea, we're going to lose goodwill and are outnumbered. He says the claim is made up by Stanley and can be proven false.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:28 pm 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    I think the reason Charlie doesn't like the "tool mandate" idea is fear. There are dozens of royal sides (at least). There are two "tool" sides.
    Those odds suck. It's even worse when the other "tool" side hates you.


    That could be a reason, but that's not how he explains his objection to Parson. He doesn't say its a bad idea, we're going to lose goodwill and are outnumbered. He says the claim is made up by Stanley and can be proven false.


    'Cause if Charley does that, the royal sides will start hiring him again, and he really needs that to happen before he goes through cash-flow collapse and can't make maintenance on some of the archons.

    (Figure Parson is still a thousand a turn for maintenance, or did that drop when the spell completed?)

    The tool side couldn't possibly afford to pay him, is the main problem for Charley.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:30 pm 
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    So the consensus is that "diminishing shmuckers" is normally a result of cities having lower output after being taken and needing to be built back up. Then combined with the need to have units to guard it the city produces very little cities stop being worth taking? At least until the area is rebuilt? If thats the case its a nice bit of info, running out of shmuckers everything will line up nicely. Best kind of deception saying something that the enemy should "know" is true.

    Also I note ten turns ago was the last city taken. NOT unaroyals capital which means the decrypted hit a couple more cities up.

    Now if actual truthful diplomacy is being tried that would be bad. After the first person turns and finds the alliance is rather nice and not all that bad (no death and reanimation), pretty soon people start agreeing Stanley is a better choice. Especially if your already being pushed around. I'm looking at you Haggar and Carpool. Those two stand to gain quite a bit.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:51 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    So the consensus is that "diminishing shmuckers" is normally a result of cities having lower output after being taken and needing to be built back up. Then combined with the need to have units to guard it the city produces very little cities stop being worth taking? At least until the area is rebuilt? If thats the case its a nice bit of info, running out of shmuckers everything will line up nicely. Best kind of deception saying something that the enemy should "know" is true.

    Also I note ten turns ago was the last city taken. NOT unaroyals capital which means the decrypted hit a couple more cities up.

    Now if actual truthful diplomacy is being tried that would be bad. After the first person turns and finds the alliance is rather nice and not all that bad (no death and reanimation), pretty soon people start agreeing Stanley is a better choice. Especially if your already being pushed around. I'm looking at you Haggar and Carpool. Those two stand to gain quite a bit.


    I think the diminishing results is simply the fact that they're already big enough; if they keep growing, what they gain will be lost in having to defend in too many different places, possibly annoy too many different sides.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:52 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    So the consensus is that "diminishing shmuckers" is normally a result of cities having lower output after being taken and needing to be built back up. Then combined with the need to have units to guard it the city produces very little cities stop being worth taking? At least until the area is rebuilt? If thats the case its a nice bit of info, running out of shmuckers everything will line up nicely. Best kind of deception saying something that the enemy should "know" is true.

    Also I note ten turns ago was the last city taken. NOT unaroyals capital which means the decrypted hit a couple more cities up.

    Now if actual truthful diplomacy is being tried that would be bad. After the first person turns and finds the alliance is rather nice and not all that bad (no death and reanimation), pretty soon people start agreeing Stanley is a better choice. Especially if your already being pushed around. I'm looking at you Haggar and Carpool. Those two stand to gain quite a bit.


    They're production and resources must be tremendous, particularly thanks to decryption. One more city really isn't worth the hassle at this point, compared with the need to deal with real strategic concerns like the RCC2.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:01 pm 
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    I like the idea of Decrypted Wanda turning into a side of her own. Decrypting would make her loyal to herself, after all...

    And that'd make one heck of a book finale.

    Hero croaks Wanda and watches her fall. Hero turns around while delivering heroic speech. Wanda rises and stabs hero in the back and proclaims that a new age has begun, an age of Wanda. Wanda then decrypts hero and marches off with her army.

    Cut to Gotti and His Toolity contacting the remains of the RCC2 to set the terms of an alliance against this new menace.

    End Book 2.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:27 pm 
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    Just realized that there's a pretty big giveaway on this update:

    The "Charlie-is-from-Earth-also" theory is now officially busted.

    Parson mentioned Kleenex, which is an Earth company/product. Unless it, or something identical, exists in Erfworld, then Charlie not even noticing it is somewhat of a giveaway. I think if Charlie was from Earth, and suddenly Parson mentions something from Earth, he'd at least trip a little bit and go "wait a minute, how would Parson know about that?". Consider that Charlie's been in Erfworld a lot longer than Parson, and if he was from Earth, then another guy from Earth would totally change Charlie's viewpoint in a huge way.

    The fact that there was no such "hold on, what did you say?" reaction from Charlie proves that he was popped in Erfworld just like everybody else, and Parson really is totally alone there.

    Unless I'm looking way too much into this...It is only Kleenex after all >_>

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:37 pm 
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    Krennson wrote:
    Yosarian wrote:
    I'm actually a little disturbed; it seems that Parson is giving away way too much info for free, especally about Ansom's mental state. With what Parson told Charley, Charley may be able to figure out Ansom's next move will be "Jetstone capital strike".


    rather the opposite..... from what Parson SAID, it sounds like Ansom is trying to convert EVERYONE to Toolism, and has stopped the advance for now to consolidate the front for the next campaign, and attempt diplomacy to see if anyone will come over voluntarily.


    Well, Charlie was thinking Ansom was trying to do some diplomacy, find some new allies, all that. Parson let him know that Ansom won't be happy with anything short of total coverts. Which would imply that anyone Ansom can't convert, he'll kill.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 048
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:49 pm 
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    SurvivorX wrote:
    Parson mentioned Kleenex, which is an Earth company/product. Unless it, or something identical, exists in Erfworld, then Charlie not even noticing it is somewhat of a giveaway. I think if Charlie was from Earth, and suddenly Parson mentions something from Earth, he'd at least trip a little bit and go "wait a minute, how would Parson know about that?". Consider that Charlie's been in Erfworld a lot longer than Parson, and if he was from Earth, then another guy from Earth would totally change Charlie's viewpoint in a huge way.


    Neah. The thing is, if Charlie is from Earth, then I would assume Charlie already knew Parson was as well. Charlie is a master of information; he probably knew about the Perfect Warlord spell before it was even cast. He seems to know all kinds of things.

    Charlie didn't act surprised at the whole "Kleenex" thing, but I think an important part of the "Charlie is from Earth" theory is "Charlie is from Earth and knows Parson is as well, and that's part of the reason Charlie wanted to recruit Parson, even though he's never had a warlord before".

    Also, if Charlie is from Earth, he probably dosn't want Parson to know that just yet, not until revealing that information gives Charlie an advantage of some kind, so he'd avoid any obvious givaways like that.

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