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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:49 pm 
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Omnimancer wrote:
I can believe that archons have insanely high upkeep. They're flying units with high attack power that can cast spells in multiple disciplines. Even though they look like petite women, it's better to think of them as another top tier unit like dwagons that by themselves are worth numerous lesser units.

Also, high upkeep might be a downside for a magic user you can pop at will. A caster is basically a lucky bonus that randomly occurs when you try to pop a warlord. So it's ok if casters are better than their upkeep suggests, since getting one is the equivalent of winning a lottery. Archons might need a more balanced ratio between unit value and upkeep.

You can't deliberately pop a caster, but you can trade for one. Digdoug appears to have been traded for a Royal warlord and not much else. If most casters have such a low upkeep, then I don't understand why anyone would ever willingly trade one. Archons are powerful units, but even a single properly used caster is utterly devastating (we've seen them take out whole groups of Archons with Wanda setting off Gobwin Knob's air defenses, Cubbins's Pop-a-Cap spell and Ace's blaster weapons) and linking casters is potentially game-breaking (e.g. the volcano). I can understand Parson being worth over a thousands schmuckers a turn since he is not only a unique warlord/caster hybrid, but actually game-breaking even without either of those two properties. However, if a caster's upkeep is only 75, then the Archons are way overpriced.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:21 pm 
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    Althernai wrote:
    Omnimancer wrote:
    I can believe that archons have insanely high upkeep. They're flying units with high attack power that can cast spells in multiple disciplines. Even though they look like petite women, it's better to think of them as another top tier unit like dwagons that by themselves are worth numerous lesser units.

    Also, high upkeep might be a downside for a magic user you can pop at will. A caster is basically a lucky bonus that randomly occurs when you try to pop a warlord. So it's ok if casters are better than their upkeep suggests, since getting one is the equivalent of winning a lottery. Archons might need a more balanced ratio between unit value and upkeep.

    You can't deliberately pop a caster, but you can trade for one. Digdoug appears to have been traded for a Royal warlord and not much else. If most casters have such a low upkeep, then I don't understand why anyone would ever willingly trade one. Archons are powerful units, but even a single properly used caster is utterly devastating (we've seen them take out whole groups of Archons with Wanda setting off Gobwin Knob's air defenses, Cubbins's Pop-a-Cap spell and Ace's blaster weapons) and linking casters is potentially game-breaking (e.g. the volcano). I can understand Parson being worth over a thousands schmuckers a turn since he is not only a unique warlord/caster hybrid, but actually game-breaking even without either of those two properties. However, if a caster's upkeep is only 75, then the Archons are way overpriced.


    Trading a caster is a big deal, but a royal warlord is a pretty damn good too. The prince probably has a high leadership bonus, so if he became chief warlord his bonus would benefit all the units of the side, as well as provide a decisive advantage at battles in the same hex as him. A warlord is much more than just a tough unit. Like casters they can have far reaching effects.

    And the caster they gave up was a dirtamancer. Now we know that dirtamancers are pretty good, but they may be less useful for a vertical side that levels up their cities. And Follywood probably had DigDoug upgrade their cities before they traded him. He may not have had much to do for them besides make golems. So in their case, it might make total sense to swap their caster for a prince, even if he had significantly higher upkeep.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:17 pm 
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    There may even be a thing going on here where a non-Royalist side trades for a Royal warlord so they can join the ranks of the goodish guys.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:30 am 
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    How does what Dig Doug was told about dirtamancy being "Low Magic" Jive with Sizemore being concidered a "Rock Star" in the magic kingdom? It seems like dirtamancers don't actually fit in with the carny/predict/shock/croak groups as their skills are slightly better valued across the board.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:52 am 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    How does what Dig Doug was told about dirtamancy being "Low Magic" Jive with Sizemore being concidered a "Rock Star" in the magic kingdom? It seems like dirtamancers don't actually fit in with the carny/predict/shock/croak groups as their skills are slightly better valued across the board.

    They're better valued by other casters within the Magic Kingdom who need the dirtamancer's skills to do any construction there at all. (Indeed, Predictamancers are also better respected in the Magic Kingdom than in greater Erfworld.) By rulers and overlords, they are looked down upon and set to wasting their time making disposable units, like crap golems, rather than doing the work of crafting that they love.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:56 am 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    How does what Dig Doug was told about dirtamancy being "Low Magic" Jive with Sizemore being concidered a "Rock Star" in the magic kingdom? It seems like dirtamancers don't actually fit in with the carny/predict/shock/croak groups as their skills are slightly better valued across the board.

    They are are considered boons to the community of the Magic Kingdom, because everything built there has to be done by Dirtamancer, or by hand. Whereas rulers mostly see them as making upgrading cities cheaper, which is mostly a one-time expenditure, and as being able to make Crap golems, which is not the most glamorous work.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:28 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    fjolnir wrote:
    How does what Dig Doug was told about dirtamancy being "Low Magic" Jive with Sizemore being concidered a "Rock Star" in the magic kingdom? It seems like dirtamancers don't actually fit in with the carny/predict/shock/croak groups as their skills are slightly better valued across the board.

    They are are considered boons to the community of the Magic Kingdom, because everything built there has to be done by Dirtamancer, or by hand. Whereas rulers mostly see them as making upgrading cities cheaper, which is mostly a one-time expenditure, and as being able to make Crap golems, which is not the most glamorous work.


    I'm wondering to what extent we could order the different schools of magic by reputation. Obviously retconjurors would be highest since they do not exist for all practical purposes. Next seem to be dollamancers, thinkamancers, signamancers, monyemancers. However the reputation of thinkamancers might take a dive if royals knew how they really operated. I suspect signamancy has a high reputation because it seems so abstract and they seem to act as lawyers sealing contracts. The others might be based on too small a sample size of views. We know dirtamancy comes near the bottom but croakamancy, carneymancy and predictamancy seem to actually vie for bottom place.

    I doubt that reputation within the magic kingdom is interesting. It's reputation amongst rulers that is the question.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:07 pm 
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    Apparently Mathmancers are fairly sought after.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:11 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Apparently Mathmancers are fairly sought after.



    I only recall Sizemore talking about Mathmancers. So that may mean only that they are considered above dirtamancers. I suspect that Jetstone is the epitome of conventional Erfworld wisdom.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:05 pm 
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    asparagus wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Apparently Mathmancers are fairly sought after.



    I only recall Sizemore talking about Mathmancers. So that may mean only that they are considered above dirtamancers. I suspect that Jetstone is the epitome of conventional Erfworld wisdom.


    I think Lipkin based his comment on what Dove guessed Digdoug was looking for. If that is a reference, then Healamancers would also be likely to be sought after.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:31 pm 
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    There probably isn't a single ranking by popularity, it can change. Maybe now dirtamancers are highly sought after, but give it a few thousand turns and some other magic type might be in vogue in the MK. And of course, outside of the MK, it probably depends on the area - some sides would have their own valuations.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:43 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    There probably isn't a single ranking by popularity, it can change. Maybe now dirtamancers are highly sought after, but give it a few thousand turns and some other magic type might be in vogue in the MK. And of course, outside of the MK, it probably depends on the area - some sides would have their own valuations.


    Yes I realize all that. I was just wondering if a ranking could be drawn up. Obviously we have too little evidence. I would imagine it's a lot more stable than ranking pop groups.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:04 pm 
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    asparagus wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    fjolnir wrote:
    How does what Dig Doug was told about dirtamancy being "Low Magic" Jive with Sizemore being concidered a "Rock Star" in the magic kingdom? It seems like dirtamancers don't actually fit in with the carny/predict/shock/croak groups as their skills are slightly better valued across the board.

    They are are considered boons to the community of the Magic Kingdom, because everything built there has to be done by Dirtamancer, or by hand. Whereas rulers mostly see them as making upgrading cities cheaper, which is mostly a one-time expenditure, and as being able to make Crap golems, which is not the most glamorous work.


    I'm wondering to what extent we could order the different schools of magic by reputation. Obviously retconjurors would be highest since they do not exist for all practical purposes. Next seem to be dollamancers, thinkamancers, signamancers, monyemancers. However the reputation of thinkamancers might take a dive if royals knew how they really operated. I suspect signamancy has a high reputation because it seems so abstract and they seem to act as lawyers sealing contracts. The others might be based on too small a sample size of views. We know dirtamancy comes near the bottom but croakamancy, carneymancy and predictamancy seem to actually vie for bottom place.

    I doubt that reputation within the magic kingdom is interesting. It's reputation amongst rulers that is the question.


    I think there are a few different things that affect how worthwhile a caster is perceived by a ruler:

    1) Specific needs of the kingdom. Some sides might really need a dirtamancer like Homekey does and so Digdoug is valued. Other sides may not need them as much, so the ruler is somewhat justified in having a lower opinion of their tactical value. Some caster disciplines seem pretty much useful to everyone, like Thinkamancers, so they're generally highly regarded everywhere you go.

    2) Notions of fairness and honor. Croakamancy is a fairly powerful discipline, but it's looked down upon because it desecrates dead bodies. Rulers don't dislike croakamancy because it's weak, they dislike it because it's dirty fighting. Carnymancy and Preditamancy are viewed as dirty for meddling with the titans' plans, by violating the rules they laid down or by trying to gain an advantage by learning your fate before it happens.

    3) Ruler's biases. Dollamancers are very useful, but I have no doubt that royals value them even more than they're worth because they like the pretty clothes they make. Also, look at how Jetstone valued the unit creation powers of Dollamancy, while simultaneously discounting Ace's powers to make magic items. And Faq, a kingdom devoted to avoiding conflict, seemed to have a low opinion of their combat oriented shockamancer. And dirtamancers are looked down on because some people discount defensive construction in favor of flashy attacks and power during battles. Someone quietly buffing your cities on peaceful turns is going to get less notice than the healomancer on the front lines, restoring units mid-battle.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:47 pm 
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    Oh I like this carnymancer better than the other one.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:28 am 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    2) Notions of fairness and honor. Croakamancy is a fairly powerful discipline, but it's looked down upon because it desecrates dead bodies. Rulers don't dislike croakamancy because it's weak, they dislike it because it's dirty fighting. Carnymancy and Preditamancy are viewed as dirty for meddling with the titans' plans, by violating the rules they laid down or by trying to gain an advantage by learning your fate before it happens...

    A side with gobwins can also have witches as natural allies but not elves.

    Often games have magic spheres that conflict with each other. A side with witches might think croakomancer is the best and life magic is yucky. In book 1, Wanda was *very* respected in last frame here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038.jpg

    I think carnymancer's are looked down on because they aren't trusted, have reputation as scammers.

    Predictomancer's are described as "bad luck"... myth at least is things tend to go wrong if you get predictions.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:03 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    In book 1, Wanda was *very* respected in last frame here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038.jpg


    Mung has just had thinkamancy powder blown in his face. Why would he not *respect* Wanda. Absolutely nothing to do with croakamancy and probably nothing to do with the reputation of magic schools amongst Human rulers.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:58 pm 
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    About Dove upkeep.

    We know that if the unit is fed, the upkeep goes down.

    if fed maybe she only need 75 smuckers for upkeep or maybe if feed she doesn't need any but that's her pay.

    Feeding might be all that you need for upkeep. Foraging could lower / remove your upkeep

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:28 pm 
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    People keep stating that Predictamancers are seen as unlucky. I don't think that's the whole truth. If I remember correctly, it's only barbarian predictamancers that failed to save their side that are considered unlucky.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:36 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    People keep stating that Predictamancers are seen as unlucky. I don't think that's the whole truth. If I remember correctly, it's only barbarian predictamancers that failed to save their side that are considered unlucky.

    Specifically, they said hiring a Predictamancer is unlucky. Whether it's because the Predictamancer failed to save their side or because people who hire them come to bad ends is never said.

    Certainly any barbarian caster of the other disciplines that is available in the Magic Kingdom has also failed to save their side, though, so that would be a heck of a prejudice if only Predictamancers were blamed for it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:31 pm 
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    Godzfirefly wrote:
    Certainly any barbarian caster of the other disciplines that is available in the Magic Kingdom has also failed to save their side, though, so that would be a heck of a prejudice if only Predictamancers were blamed for it.
    Even so, that prejudice is a real thing. See B2T37. I think the point is that a Predictamancer is the ultimate strategic discipline, the one that really should be able to look ahead as far as necessary and prevent her side from making a decision that would ever lead to its destruction, even indirectly. That seems like asking a lot from a Predictamancer, but it's certainly true that an ideal Predictamancer would be able to do that, and therefore any Predictamancer in the Magic Kingdom is not an ideal Predictamancer. On the other hand a Croakamancer could be the greatest imaginable Croakamancer and still work for a side that eventually falls, because Croakamancy can only re-animate bodies, not sides. Living in the Magic Kingdom is no real evidence that a caster made a mistake or has weak magic, unless that caster is a Predictamancer.

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