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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:03 pm 
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drachefly wrote:
That's what I'm asking for...
My apologies, I interpreted your original statement as meaning you were asking for existing evidence and since we've never seen a Changemancer, I was a bit confused and offered the next best thing.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:20 pm 
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    "Golem" is probably a catchall term for any non-living non-uncroaked unit animated by magic. So it's likely that many disciplines can create golems, just different casters can only work with different materials.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:45 pm 
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    Some comments:

    There has been nothing in comic to say that their isn't overlap between classes. Look at Dnd classes like wizard, druid, bard, and cleric. Each of these classes works differently, and they use different power sources, but some of their spells are the same. So if a changemancer is like an alchemist, and a dollamancer is like an enchanter, perhaps there is some overlap.


    Also there was some comments on raiments being dollamancy. Isn't raiments Signamancy?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:33 pm 
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    Sir_Dr_D wrote:
    Some comments:

    There has been nothing in comic to say that their isn't overlap between classes. Look at Dnd classes like wizard, druid, bard, and cleric. Each of these classes works differently, and they use different power sources, but some of their spells are the same. So if a changemancer is like an alchemist, and a dollamancer is like an enchanter, perhaps there is some overlap.


    Also there was some comments on raiments being dollamancy. Isn't raiments Signamancy?

    I think the raiments are Dollmancy, as they are created by a Dollmancer. But the emblems, like Wanda's skull and flower, are Signamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:02 am 
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    Sir_Dr_D wrote:
    There has been nothing in comic to say that their isn't overlap between classes. Look at Dnd classes like wizard, druid, bard, and cleric.
    Erfworld disciplines don't seem to work that way. Of all the 24 disciplines, Changemancy and Dollamancy are striking in how much they seem to overlap. No other pair comes close. Instead, each discipline seems to serve specific functions that no other discipline can do. Since we know so little about Changemancy, I think it's natural to be suspicious that it might not actually overlap Dollamancy as much as it seems to. At least it is an interesting exercise to consider how Changemancy might be so that it matches what Sizemore said and yet still doesn't overlap Dollamancy.

    You're right that nothing in the comic explicitly states that disciplines can't overlap, but I wouldn't expect any Erfworlder to say that even if it were true. Casters consider magic to be a deep and complex skill and they spend their lives trying to better understand their own disciplines. They probably never achieve total understanding. It sounds like they are always having debates in the Magic Kingdom. So I expect that if you ask a caster if two disciplines overlap you would never get a clear and certain "no" answer because that could easily require a total understanding of both disciplines.

    Sir_Dr_D wrote:
    Also there was some comments on raiments being dollamancy. Isn't raiments Signamancy?
    Raiment is Dollamancy, and so is livery, according to Summer Update 25. Signamancy is still a bit of a mystery; we've only seen hints of what it can do. I suspect that Signamancy is like the opposite of Foolamancy; Signamancy could be the magic of seeing the truth based on appearances. An Erfworlder might say that raiment changes a unit's Signamancy because it changes the unit's appearance, but Signamancy doesn't actually make raiment. Signamancy might not actually make anything; it could be just like Lookamancy and Predictamancy, a purely observational magic.

    Lipkin wrote:
    But the emblems, like Wanda's skull and flower, are Signamancy.
    Emblems are livery, which makes them Dollamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:09 am 
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    I would say most likely casting disciplines do not overlap in functionality, and it is more fun that way if they don't. But just saying, we cannot eliminate the possibility.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:42 am 
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    There's a lot of overlap already, like hatamancy and thinkamancy both doing communication.

    For signamancy, I expect it's able to fake signamancy, while other signamancy is genuine. Like if you give the warlord the exact same signamancy as the pikers he's leading he can't be singled out, or you could make some knights look like level 1 stabbers to set a trap.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:04 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:

    Lipkin wrote:
    But the emblems, like Wanda's skull and flower, are Signamancy.
    Emblems are livery, which makes them Dollamancy.

    I suppose. But it makes more sense for it to be signamancy, because the emblems aren't just used on clothing. The banners and colors of Spacerock changed to those of Gobwin Knob when the city was captured. Seems like Signamancy to me. I know it's stated to be Dollamancy, so I guess I can't argue, but a retcon wouldn't shock me.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:16 am 
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    Sir_Dr_D wrote:
    I would say most likely casting disciplines do not overlap in functionality, and it is more fun that way if they don't. But just saying, we cannot eliminate the possibility.


    Casters can cast outside of their discipline though (like Wanda making a hat magic golem), and use other schools of magic as part of their discipline (like Ace making a shockamancy magic item or Wanda using rhyme-a-mancy to aid in uncroaking).

    So while I think each class has a very different purpose and range of abilities, they can mix and match other schools with their speciality.

    The difference between Dollamancy and Changeamancy, when it comes to magic items, I think is that the only magic items Dollamancers can make are "accessories" equipped by one unit that deal with motion in a pretty direct way. So you can make a weapon that knocks enemies around, or a jetpack that lets you fly, and other stuff that applies or blocks kinetic energy.

    A changeamancer might be able to create a much wider range of magic items, with a much wider range of effects. A magic blanket for instance. They probably have more freedom in summoning materials too, since they are stuffamancers. We also don't know if Dollamancers can even summon stuff at all. They might need raw materials to work with, or an existing item to alter. Ace seemed pretty dependent on Cubbins to get him items to enchant. So changeamancers might also be useful for getting all sorts of items and materials, for both mundane and magical items, and for both changeamancers and other casters to enchant.

    An additional possibility is that dollamancy items have limited juice (almost like batteries in an action figure). That ray gun might only have a limited number of shots (which makes sense, because otherwise it's ridiculously powerful and you'd think that every side with dollamancers would just equip all their units with ray guns).

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:56 am 
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    Omnimancer, that all sounds possible, but I worry that you're speculation is overpowering Changemancers. Every difference you invent between Changemancy and Dollamancy seems to be adding another weakness to Dollamancy or a new strength to Changemancy. Of course, the fact that Dollamancy can make raiment and golems is a pretty big advantage that probably indicates weaknesses in other areas, but lacking the ability to conjure is a pretty solid weakness.

    Having the ability to bring into reality any tool, weapon, or armor that you might want would be a pretty great superpower all on its own, even if they weren't magic items. I don't think there's cause for us to figure out how Changemancers avoid being underpowered.

    Omnimancer wrote:
    A changemancer might be able to create a much wider range of magic items, with a much wider range of effects.
    Maybe, but I have doubts about Changemancers having the ability to give items effects that mimic other disciplines. My gut says that we should be more conservative in our guesses about that. Maybe Changemancy enchantments are limited to enhancing the natural abilities of items, like making swords sharper, shields stronger, armor more protective. That sort of thing in addition to the usual advantages of magic items ought to be enough to make Changemancy a very useful discipline.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:22 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Omnimancer, that all sounds possible, but I worry that you're speculation is overpowering Changemancers. Every difference you invent between Changemancy and Dollamancy seems to be adding another weakness to Dollamancy or a new strength to Changemancy. Of course, the fact that Dollamancy can make raiment and golems is a pretty big advantage that probably indicates weaknesses in other areas, but lacking the ability to conjure is a pretty solid weakness.

    Having the ability to bring into reality any tool, weapon, or armor that you might want would be a pretty great superpower all on its own, even if they weren't magic items. I don't think there's cause for us to figure out how Changemancers avoid being underpowered.

    Omnimancer wrote:
    A changemancer might be able to create a much wider range of magic items, with a much wider range of effects.
    Maybe, but I have doubts about Changemancers having the ability to give items effects that mimic other disciplines. My gut says that we should be more conservative in our guesses about that. Maybe Changemancy enchantments are limited to enhancing the natural abilities of items, like making swords sharper, shields stronger, armor more protective. That sort of thing in addition to the usual advantages of magic items ought to be enough to make Changemancy a very useful discipline.


    I suspect that Dollamancers have limited conjuration abilities just because Spookism has no matter component at all, just motion. So Dollamancy seems to be about imparting motion into existing inanimate objects, creating golems and buffing an existing unit's actions (their motion) through accessories.

    That's not to say they can't create matter at all, but it might require casting outside of their discipline. So maybe a Dollamancer could cast a bit of changeamancy to summon materials if they had no other source, but it isn't the most effective use of their juice if they can get the materials another way. It might also depend on the Dollamancer's specific skill in changemancy, which could vary by individual (the same way Sizemore can't do much outside of Dirtamancy but Wanda is decent outside of Croakmancy).

    Magic item creation might depend a lot on an individual caster's specific skill outside their core discipline. For example, maybe those shockamancy weapons Ace made aren't something all Dollamancers can do. Maybe he's an expert Dollamancer that's decent at Shockamancy, so he can use Shockamancy in the items he creates. A different Dollamancer that's decent at Foolamancy instead might be constructing veiling cloaks and displacement rings rather than blasters.

    The same might be true of Changeamancers, with some artisans incorporating whatever outside magic they can handle while others are pure Changeamancers that just produce masterwork items.

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