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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:39 pm 
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0beron wrote:
Buildings are made from earthy materials. Metal, stone, mud, etc. In fact I believe Weatherbug is said to have tile roofs, which means they're made of clay.
Does that mean that you think that if the shingles were wooden then Digdoug's patching spell couldn't have worked?

0beron wrote:
You're changing the properties of something, or changing nothing into something.
Changing the properties of something is just ordinary changing, but changing nothing into something is a pretty unusual use of the word "change". One usually doesn't think of changing "nothing" because it's not often considered to be a thing that can be changed.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:07 pm 
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    Let me give you a general bit of advice that would solve 99% of our disgreements. Stop taking everything so literally. If you asked someone to bring you a bird, would you get upset if they showed up with an emu? Cus that's basically what many of your objections boil down to.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:19 pm 
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    Wooden shingles in a city with constant rain? That'd be terrible.

    But you're splitting hairs, just because it's a different material doesn't mean it doesn't follow the theme. In earth world, function over form is the norm.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:24 pm 
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    Sir Shadow wrote:
    But you're splitting hairs, just because it's a different material doesn't mean it doesn't follow the theme.
    I agree. Dirt isn't actually critical to Dirtamancy; it's just something they often tend to work with. Dirtamancy is really more about buildings and architecture; anything that buildings can be made out of is fair game for Dirtamancers. I bet that if you wanted a full-scale gingerbread house, a Dirtamancer is the one you would talk to.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:30 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    I agree.
    No you don't cus that's not what Shadow's really saying. Shadow is pointing out that wood is an earthy/dirty material as well. Everything in the city is built from dirt in the first place.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:37 pm 
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    I'm saying that dirtamancy effects architecture BECAUSE dirt/earth is typically associated with structures and most building materials are made from minerals in the earth, or in the case of wood, things that grow in the earth. You're both right, there's no reason to nitpick about specifics.

    EDIT: now if a dirtamancer wanted to build buildings out of say... candy? I'd say he probably couldn't.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:14 pm 
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    Sir Shadow wrote:
    Now if a dirtamancer wanted to build buildings out of say... candy? I'd say he probably couldn't.
    We're saying that wood is allowed because it grows in dirt, which is a pretty flimsy connection that can be used to connect almost anything to dirt. Sugarcane also grows in dirt, and ginger comes from roots so it's much more earthy than wood. I bet that if a Dirtamancer were unable to make a candy house it would be because the materials are so unusual or because he couldn't make it structurally sound, not because of a devotion to dirt.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:21 pm 
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    It's made clear in the earlier installments that Digdug can work with the storm because it's a terrain feature. Dirtamancy is, by inference, the magic of shaping and manipulating terrain. So if your terrain has trees in it, your dirtamancer can fashion them into wood buildings.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:57 pm 
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    What's up with Sizemore making wood out of thin air in the Magic Kingdom then? Or why do Florists get to make plant traps?

    Anyway, I assumed Change would get wearable items a long time ago. Because it can create a change of clothes, :D

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:11 pm 
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    Sizemore makes wood from the earth/dirt, and plant traps are living.

    Nice connection on change of clothes though, I like that :)

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    GJC wrote:
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    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:27 pm 
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    I'm surprised no one said it first. The joke seems obvious.

    Also, are you saying Sizemore changed the dirt into wood? That seems kind of weird.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:33 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    What's up with Sizemore making wood out of thin air in the Magic Kingdom then?


    What makes you think he made it out of thin air and that there weren't trees as part of the terrain in the hex? I can clearly see trees in this picture of the magic kingdom.
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... ingdom.JPG

    I'd think as long as the hex has trees in it, then it's a resource available as a terrain feature.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:36 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    plant traps are living.


    This. And a Florist isn't restricted to trees. It's not like every thing in Erf can only be affected by one type of magic.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:47 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    What's up with Sizemore making wood out of thin air in the Magic Kingdom then? Or why do Florists get to make plant traps?

    Anyway, I assumed Change would get wearable items a long time ago. Because it can create a change of clothes, :D


    Erfworld materials don't have to have logical origins. So dirtamancy's power of construction includes creating wood, metal, windows, tapestries, etc. I think city creation by rulers was once described as natural dirtamancy in an update. So every part of a city is an expression of dirtmancy. Dirtamancy isn't really power over dirt, but power over land and everything built on it.

    I think a changeamancer probably can create clothes too, but probably also make items that aren't just held or worn by units. For example if you wanted an enchanted sailing ship or enhanced catapult or magic hourglass, they might be able to do that. They might also have a broader range of enchantments, maybe stuff more powerful and/or subtle. Dollamancers also seem reliant of having something to work with, the way Ace altered the King's scepter, while the Changeamancer could just pull the item out of thin air. Dollamancers might not be summoning matter when they create rainment, but transforming cloth produced by cities. If a dollamancer wanted to create a sword, they might be limited to the quality of materials the city creates. Your city only creates bronze ingots? No steel swords for you. A changeamancer could just create a mithril blade.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:11 pm 
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    It could be possible that dollamancy can enchant items, to make them do something that they normally wouldn't be able to do. (eg, be animated, shoot lasers, fly, suck up magic, protection from blasts, etc). Changemancers can create items out of thin air, or change an item from one thing to another, but the item that is changed too would only be a better version of what the item could normally be. So a changamancer could make magic armor +5. But to give it some special property, like being able to deflect one blast per day, you would need a dollamancer. It makes me scared on what a dollamancer and a changeamancer could do when working together.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:12 pm 
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    Sir_Dr_D wrote:
    It could be possible that dollamancy can enchant items, to make them do something that they normally wouldn't be able to do. (eg, be animated, shoot lasers, fly, suck up magic, protection from blasts, etc). Changemancers can create items out of thin air, or change an item from one thing to another, but the item that is changed too would only be a better version of what the item could normally be. So a changamancer could make magic armor +5. But to give it some special property, like being able to deflect one blast per day, you would need a dollamancer. It makes me scared on what a dollamancer and a changeamancer could do when working together.


    Changeamancers also do "detail work", so they're probably capable of higher tech items like telescopes, clocks, complex locks, and other things like that.

    Also, passive enchantments might go beyond just high quality +5 weapons, but include things like a flaming sword or an invisibility cloak. I think the distinction is that the dollamancer items are user activated, and impart kinetic energy, while the changeamancer items might simply be magical 24/7 and have a broader range of qualities.

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    Last edited by Omnimancer on Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:19 pm 
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    Until we get a lot more detail, I'm going to assume that a Dollamancer's domain is over products that a character would tend to "equip" in a fantasy, role-playing or wargame, while a Changemancer's domain is all other items and a Dirtamancer is all terrain features. I further assume that there's more crossover between Dirtamancy and Changemancy (both Stuffamancy) than there is between either of those two and Dollamancy (Spookism). From my assumptions, I would conclude that Changemancers do not make raiment, clothing, armor or weapons unless they're casting far outside their discipline.

    Still, we've seen time and again that there is a lot of bleed between disciplines, the lines are blurry, and many functions can be accomplished by many disciplines with variations. I'd bet more casters than not can summon a unit from within their discipline, and that of those, a plurality are called "golems." So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Dollamancers can make all kinds of headgear within their discipline, but that most things you do with headgear (like sending, or pulling out small objects) are Hat Magic.

    /random thoughts

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:06 pm 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    Also, passive enchantments might go beyond just high quality +5 weapons, but include things like a flaming sword or an invisibility cloak. I think the distinction is that the dollamancer items are user activated, and impart kinetic energy, while the dollamancer items might simply be magical 24/7 and have a broader range of qualities.


    Assuming the last "dollamancer" meant "changemancer". Thinking cap doesn't work perfectly with this schema though.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:14 pm 
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    twhitt wrote:
    From my assumptions, I would conclude that Changemancers do not make raiment, clothing, armor or weapons unless they're casting far outside their discipline.
    I'm a huge fan of figuring out ways that Dollamancy and Changemancy might be untangled, but it can't be that easy. Summer Update 28: "Really versatile magic. Weapons, armor, tools...Changemancers either rework and enchant an existing item, or just imagine a new one and conjure it."

    Since we know that Changemancers create weapons and armor, I think we'd better turn your theory on its head and say that Dollamancers don't create weapons and armor. Of course Dollamancers can turn existing materials into special weapons and armor, but everything we've seen Ace making has been crazy unusual things like ray guns, hand grenades, and jet packs which I'd bet Changemancy can't make. And of course livery is Natural Dollamancy, so if you wanted to change the livery of armor or raiment that would be a job for a Dollamancer. Dollamancers can probably make adjustments to armor or any item, but to actually make new armor I'm going to speculate that Dollamancers don't actually do it any more than Zhopa actually made a new basket. I doubt that you can mine iron out of the ground and then have your Dollamancer forge it into steel, etc. Dollamancers don't seem like blacksmiths to me; I guess they're more like watch makers. It could be that the only way to make armor is to pop units who are already wearing it, use Moneymancy to turn shmuckers into armor (Natural Moneymancy might be able to handle that), or else use Changemancy. Based on this I'm going to guess that Bogroll made Parson's armor by taking some existing armor and adjusting its size and livery to fit Parson.

    twhitt wrote:
    I'd bet more casters than not can summon a unit from within their discipline, and that of those, a plurality are called "golems."
    The fact that we've seen that no one discipline has a monopoly on creating golems tends to suggest that they can all do it, but maybe it's not every discipline. There could be some pattern to who can make golems. Which disciplines do we know make golems? Dirtamancy, Dollamancy, Hat Magic (Book 0, Episode 19). That's all that I can think of and all the Golem wiki page currently lists.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 3
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:14 pm 
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    I would really love to see what a changeamancer actually does that makes it worth being, that Ace couldn't do.

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