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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:17 pm 
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Sizemore and Maggie created the look and crest of the new Gobwin Knob. That's Signamancy. So Signamancy and Dirtamancy obviously overlap.

Upgrading a city isn't done by a Dirtamancer, only controlled by him if he's there. I think a Signamancer could probably do the same thing, but with different results. While a Dirtamancer can create larger bonuses and make the the whole process cheaper, a Signamancer could make it function better. The new Gobwin Knob was described as having a theoretical level of 8, while the actual max level is 5. Some of that bonus could have been layout, like the new gate.

Just a theory.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:49 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Sizemore and Maggie created the look and crest of the new Gobwin Knob. That's Signamancy. So Signamancy and Dirtamancy obviously overlap.
    That's only an actual overlap if Signamancy can create things. Stuffamancy and Moneymancy are the magics that creates things, so I'm not going to guess that Signamancy creates things until I see an indication of it. Units have Thinkamancy as much as they have Signamancy, but that doesn't mean that you need Thinkamancy to create a unit.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Upgrading a city isn't done by a Dirtamancer, only controlled by him if he's there.
    Judging from how Digdoug is sculpting Weatherbug like clay, I find it hard to be sure that a Dirtamancer can't upgrade a city. Our best reference on this issue is probably Summer Update 25 where Sizemore says, "Having a Dirtamancer in your city when you upgrade it reduces the cost by a lot, but it means the Dirtamancer sets the appearance, the shape of things...and the livery." To me that sounds like the Dirtamancer does most of the work so that the side can save its shmuckers.

    Lipkin wrote:
    I think a Signamancer could probably do the same thing, but with different results.
    You might be right; there's no way to know for certain since we've seen so little of Signamancy, but there seems to be a tendency for disciplines to not overlap. So then I propose an alternate theory: a Signamancer can upgrade a city, but instead of doing heavy lifting like a Dirtamancer and reducing the shmucker cost, the Signamancer would use the normal amount of shmuckers and produce a aesthetically better-designed city that gives morale boosts to your troops and intimidates invaders. I'd guess that the very best cities are made by Dirtamancer-Thinkamancer-Signamancer links.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:00 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Sizemore and Maggie created the look and crest of the new Gobwin Knob. That's Signamancy. So Signamancy and Dirtamancy obviously overlap.
    That's only an actual overlap if Signamancy can create things. Stuffamancy and Moneymancy are the magics that creates things, so I'm not going to guess that Signamancy creates things until I see an indication of it. Units have Thinkamancy as much as they have Signamancy, but that doesn't mean that you need Thinkamancy to create a unit.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Upgrading a city isn't done by a Dirtamancer, only controlled by him if he's there.
    Judging from how Digdoug is sculpting Weatherbug like clay, I find it hard to be sure that a Dirtamancer can't upgrade a city. Our best reference on this issue is probably Summer Update 25 where Sizemore says, "Having a Dirtamancer in your city when you upgrade it reduces the cost by a lot, but it means the Dirtamancer sets the appearance, the shape of things...and the livery." To me that sounds like the Dirtamancer does most of the work so that the side can save its shmuckers.

    Lipkin wrote:
    I think a Signamancer could probably do the same thing, but with different results.
    You might be right; there's no way to know for certain since we've seen so little of Signamancy, but there seems to be a tendency for disciplines to not overlap. So then I propose an alternate theory: a Signamancer can upgrade a city, but instead of doing heavy lifting like a Dirtamancer and reducing the shmucker cost, the Signamancer would use the normal amount of shmuckers and produce a aesthetically better-designed city that gives morale boosts to your troops and intimidates invaders. I'd guess that the very best cities are made by Dirtamancer-Thinkamancer-Signamancer links.

    It's overlap because the creation/upgrading of a city is Moneymancy. I'm not suggesting Signamancers create things. They alter them. So when Moneymancy is used to upgrade a city, the Signamancer would alter the city as it is made to make it more effective, and to make it look better I suppose. The creation process itself is still Moneymancy fueled Dirtamancy, but the Signamancer would optimize the Signamancy aspect.

    As for your suggestion about a Signamancer upgraded city, yeah, I agree, but I'd go further than just morale bonuses. The layout of Gobwin Knob was cited as one of the things that made it so defensible. It was said to be a theoretical level 8, despite 5 being the max number. I propose that a Dirtamancer is responsible for raising the city to level 5, and the rest of the bonuses are dictated by Signamancy and terrain. Not to say that the Signamancy couldn't be changed by a Dirtamancer, just that a Signamancer would be the best suited to make the optimal design. Like the layout of the new gate would be Signamancy that actually does something beyond just it's appearance.








    Had another semi-related thought. In this update...

    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... icnic1.jpg

    Parson mentions a desire to turn one of the empty buildings into a Steak n' Shake. I wonder if creating a replica of a Steak n' Shake would cause Steak n' Shake food to pop?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:01 am 
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    Manic Oppressive wrote:
    Anyone else thinking Rob's introducing some sides for Parson to negotiate with?


    I'm more than satisfied that we're getting these updates period, exploring Erfworld in it's "natural state" is way more interesting to me because seeing that Parson's bag of tricks is essentially his RL knowledge especially his tabletop experience so I'm not going to get a lot of surprises out of him as I already know about our RL games.

    On the other hand exploring the nature of Erfworld is something completely new, even with the puns and homages to RL, especially the various magic disciplines.

    There's a trap in writing your story too strongly around one main character, I'm not saying Rob is guilty of this quite the contrary he is one of the best I've seen in dividing screen time between his characters, it's other writers cough Rowling Kishimotto cough who have this unfortunate need to make every aspect of their world hinge on the title character.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:16 am 
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    I think an interesting comparison would be to compare what Digdoug can do compared to Sizemore since Sizemore can't cast anything outside of Dirtamancy while Digdoug can apparently do some Signamancy as well. Sizemore had been Gobwin Knob for quite a while and they mentioned the city didn't even have windows and the tower lacked a lot of functionality warroom stuff other sides had, possible that Sizemore didn't fix those things since he couldn't on his own outside of a link up cause he had no signamancy ability?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:52 am 
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    Quote:
    He couldn’t spare another turn for what was essentially Signamancy.


    The comment doesn't strictly need to be aimed at signamancy's capabilities in general. It could easily be aimed at his capabilities in signamancy.

    Also, signamancy could build up slowly. If it takes effects over long periods, then it's not going to be very effective against an attack launched today.

    Just like how in Civilization you don't start building universities the moment a war breaks out. They're very useful, but not just right now.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:54 am 
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    Sixty wrote:
    Digdoug can apparently do some Signamancy as well.
    I think people are taking his Signamancy comment much too literally and generally. He was merely saying that adding extra roofs/tarps/etc (which is still Dirtamancy, because it is altering the city structure as Dirtamancy has been shown to do) would have no "valuable" effect beyond making the people happy and making the city look nicer/drier. That doesn't me he'd actually use Signamancy spells to do it. The word Signamancy is often used the same way we would use "aesthetics". Everything in the world has natural signamancy, because everything in the world has an appearance to it. In that sense, it could be said that EVERY caster can impact Signamancy.

    Edit: Ninja'd by drache.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:43 am 
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    Am I the only person looking at my keyboard and imagining a river right between the number pad and the 6 formatting keys? Maybe with a city right up where the slant of the keyboard ends. :lol:

    Hmm. Signamancy is appearances and how that reflects the truth. The city's Signamancy now reflects dealing with the rain, rather than ceding the city. There was engineering involved, and that was the correct way to change the Signamancy. It is like natural Signamancy, except done with the help of non-Signamancy magic.

    Signamancysignamancysignamancysignamancysignamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:19 am 
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    There's been so many good posts in this thread I won't quote them all, but lipkin's and prodigal_knight's just above stand out as spot on.

    Personally, I love these updates. In the past, it seems the rate limiting step in producing content has been the art. I would be very happy to see fewer comic updates and more of these snapshots of life beyond the great western conflict.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:59 am 
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    Ooh! I just thought of how Signamancers could get around Lookamancy! :D

    Sign language for face-to-face communication, and hobo signs for written missives!

    Maybe semaphore, if you don't trust/have a Thinkamancer? Hmm...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:03 pm 
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    I love reading more about the rules and mechanics of Erfworld. Permanent Weather as a terrain type! Fun! I hope to see a lot more of how the world functions and its denizens use or react to it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:45 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    There's been so many good posts in this thread I won't quote them all, but lipkin's and prodigal_knight's just above stand out as spot on.

    Personally, I love these updates. In the past, it seems the rate limiting step in producing content has been the art. I would be very happy to see fewer comic updates and more of these snapshots of life beyond the great western conflict.



    The fantastic writing of Book 0 and the Summer Updates caused me to want Rob to novelize the WHOLE THING. I would so back le Kickstarter for that. AND continue buying the graphic novels of course. They're a whole different venue for expressing the story and qualify as objets d'art, so I don't see any conflict between the graphic novels and full text ones (with Book 0-Summer Updates style artwork ofc). I see them as complementary to each other.

    Anyone else feel the same way? we could start a thread to promote the idea :D

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:02 pm 
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    LordAcme wrote:
    The fantastic writing of Book 0 and the Summer Updates caused me to want Rob to novelize the WHOLE THING.
    I wonder how long a book would be if it had all of Book 0, Summer Updates, Epilogues, Digdoug, Lord Crush, and all of Book 1 and Book 2 novelized. I bet the whole thing could fit into fewer pages than The Fellowship of the Ring (and be a much better read). I don't buy novels; I borrow them from the library, but I would buy that without hesitation. If Parson's complete story (including all future books) could be novelized into a single volume, I would buy that in hard cover and it would have a place of honor on my shelf.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:36 pm 
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    Been reading about improving drainage having no effect, but what would happen if you stored the water in a tank or something, and release it when being siege, like a flood gate for dams? I would think it would be pretty effective, mainly for slowing down siege units even more, and dealing a bit of shockamancy damage along with it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:50 am 
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    Blank wrote:
    Been reading about improving drainage having no effect, but what would happen if you stored the water in a tank or something, and release it when being siege, like a flood gate for dams? I would think it would be pretty effective, mainly for slowing down siege units even more, and dealing a bit of shockamancy damage along with it.

    I'm wondering if Sizemore's being setting that up with GK's lava.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:29 am 
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    Quote:
    Dirtamancers could fashion traps from terrain features.

    And a permanent storm? That was a terrain feature. The natural Shockmancy of the city’s weather could be harnessed, directed in its own defense.


    That's awesome. Sounds like Dirtamancers can "harness"ANY terrain feature. So even if the feature has to do with storms, lightning, and weather -- a humble dirtamancer can turn it into a city defense.

    This makes "uncroaking the volcano" a bit more understandable. If the volcano had been active already, Sizemore could have probably turned it into something defensive. But it wasn't, so he couldn't. But with a croakamancer's ability to "bring things back to life" (in a fashion), and his own knowledge of how to harness terrain features, it became possible. Turning a volcano into a Dirtamancy trap isn't really that big a deal -- but doing it with an extinct volcano, that took out-of-Erf thinking.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:27 am 
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    "I'd rather be a cowboy than lay me down in lady's chains." Or something. John Denver tune. She a romantic interest for someone?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:33 am 
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    Most of what I wanna say has already been said (Fun update, thank you Rob), but I would like to note that I really wanna see a tri-link with a Signamancer/Dirtimancer building a city. That screams massive optimization/efficiency to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:00 am 
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    name lips wrote:
    Quote:
    Dirtamancers could fashion traps from terrain features.

    And a permanent storm? That was a terrain feature. The natural Shockmancy of the city’s weather could be harnessed, directed in its own defense.


    That's awesome. Sounds like Dirtamancers can "harness"ANY terrain feature. So even if the feature has to do with storms, lightning, and weather -- a humble dirtamancer can turn it into a city defense.

    This makes "uncroaking the volcano" a bit more understandable. If the volcano had been active already, Sizemore could have probably turned it into something defensive. But it wasn't, so he couldn't. But with a croakamancer's ability to "bring things back to life" (in a fashion), and his own knowledge of how to harness terrain features, it became possible. Turning a volcano into a Dirtamancy trap isn't really that big a deal -- but doing it with an extinct volcano, that took out-of-Erf thinking.

    Seemed like a lightning rod implementation to me. Or some such.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 1
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:24 pm 
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    Enjoying these story updates. Hope everything is going ok for the next graphic novel.

    I apologize if this has been answered but, is the idea of these stories to give us snips of books that Parson is reading while trying to prep for his fight with Charlie?

    It seems that way, but, can't hurt to ask.

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