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 Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:36 pm 
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Shai_hulud wrote:
0beron wrote:
Sizemore didn't make wood out of nowhere, he transformed earth into wood.
Source?
I'm pretty sure the source could only be Book 2, Text 45: "The conversation was less real than the displacement of dirt, the Stuffmancy of constructing beams and lights, packing the tunnel floor solid." But it doesn't actually say that he's turning dirt into beams. It actually says that he is displacing dirt and constructing beams, as though he needed to get the dirt out of the way before he could construct the beams. He might be turning dirt into beams, but it's hard to tell.

There is also Summer Update 28 which says: "That's Stuffamancy. Really versatile magic. Weapons, armor, tools...Stuffamancers just imagine it and conjure it." It looks like Sizemore is capable of making stuff appear out of pure magic, which is yet another thing a discipline can do that has no connection to its name.

Shai_hulud wrote:
Wanda even says most casters can do it, and that it's "raw" Shockamancy.
Where does Wanda say that hobokens are Shockmancy? I've been looking for that. I have a feeling that I remember it from somewhere, but I can't find it.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:47 pm 
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    Nope, I looked in book 0 and couldn't find it using the Find option. Must just be our faulty memories. :?

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:14 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    Sizemore didn't make wood out of nowhere, he transformed earth into wood.
    Source?
    I'm pretty sure the source could only be Book 2, Text 45: "The conversation was less real than the displacement of dirt, the Stuffmancy of constructing beams and lights, packing the tunnel floor solid." But it doesn't actually say that he's turning dirt into beams. It actually says that he is displacing dirt and constructing beams, as though he needed to get the dirt out of the way before he could construct the beams. He might be turning dirt into beams, but it's hard to tell.

    There is also Summer Update 28 which says: "That's Stuffamancy. Really versatile magic. Weapons, armor, tools...Stuffamancers just imagine it and conjure it." It looks like Sizemore is capable of making stuff appear out of pure magic, which is yet another thing a discipline can do that has no connection to its name.

    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Wanda even says most casters can do it, and that it's "raw" Shockamancy.
    Where does Wanda say that hobokens are Shockmancy? I've been looking for that. I have a feeling that I remember it from somewhere, but I can't find it.


    How exactly is digging tunnels not related to dirt?

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:21 pm 
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    Because some of the component sub-tasks involve steps that do not directly involve manipulating dirt.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:31 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Because some of the component sub-tasks involve steps that do not directly involve manipulating dirt.


    Try digging a tunnel without beams

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:53 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    How exactly is digging tunnels not related to dirt?
    Digging a tunnel is very related to dirt. If the goal is to prove that Dirtamancy sometimes deals with dirt, then consider that mission accomplished. On the other hand, the challenge was to find one single instance of a discipline doing something that was unrelated to its name, and now we have that Dirtamancers can conjure weapons, armor, and tools. And he's not making them from dirt, either:
    Summer Update 28:
    Parson: "Create it? Or summon it from somewhere?"
    Sizemore: "That's a great question, Warlord. There's a big debate about that, getting right down to the level of 'what is magic?' and 'what is stuff?' Some Casters think they're the same thing, and that Stuffamancy proves it. But even the Stuffamancers don't agree about that."

    I can't imagine how there could be a debate about that if the weapons and tools were just being sculpted from dirt. It sounds more like they are being made from pure magic, or just appearing out of thin air, or forming in some other mysterious way that leaves their origin open for debate among casters.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:31 pm 
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    Except Stuffamancy has never done what he talks about, which I find incredibly strange. Dollamancy does.
    In fact, every time we see Dirtamancy, it's taking raw material. Crap into golems, dirt into a tunnel, etc. It's working in/with the earth, exactly like the name theory says it should.
    So Sizemore's comments really confuse me. Like pretty much everything in the Summer Updates -_-

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:21 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Except Stuffamancy has never done what he talks about, which I find incredibly strange. Dollamancy does.
    Sizemore made beams and lights for the tunnel. I guess that he conjured them just the way he was talking about in Summer Update 28. Dollamancy certainly makes stuff, but I suspect that it is restricted to working from raw materials. In Summer Update 25 the fabrication special of Twolls is described as Natural Dollamancy, and we saw Zhopa make a basket by reshaping an existing basket rather than by conjuring in Summer Update 23. Ace was assisted by Cubbins conjuring small objects, which suggests to me that Ace might not have been able to conjure small objects himself (Book 2, Text 30, also a great resource for general Dollamancy description). It seems fitting to me that Stuffamancy magically makes stuff, and Dollamancy crafts the stuff into units and mechanisms with moving parts, because Stuffamancy has the element of Matter and Dollamancy has the element of Motion.

    0beron wrote:
    In fact, every time we see Dirtamancy, it's taking raw material. Crap into golems, dirt into a tunnel, etc.
    That's true, but Sizemore couldn't be wrong about this. I guess this has to mean that he can conjure stuff but chooses not to do so when he already has stuff available to work with. Surely he would save juice that way.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:45 pm 
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    All Stuffamancy we have ever seen had something to work from, and certainly hasn't dealt with making tools/weapons. Dirtamancy has always had earth, and Dittoamancy has had an original. So Sizemore's statement is the outlier rather than the trend. I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't jibe with what we see in practice, so I'm confused as to what Rob was thinking.
    I'm leaning towards it falling under the same acid-twip-caliber discussion as what follows, about Erf-time. Perhaps Sizemore is just venturing into the deep philosophical stuff. "What even is reality man?" He's into Hippiemancy for the peace-pipe, if ya catch my drift.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:26 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    All Stuffamancy we have ever seen had something to work from, and certainly hasn't dealt with making tools/weapons. Dirtamancy has always had earth, and Dittoamancy has had an original.
    Having an original is not the same as having raw material. Dittomancy stuff seems to appear out of thin air, just like Sizemore was talking about. The fact that the thin air in question happens to be beside identical stuff seems to be just a quirk of Dittomancy. Since Stuffamancers can just imagine a thing and make it, it seems that not everything a Dittomancer makes needs to be a copy of a real thing, though I'm sure it saves a lot of juice to have an original.

    It all seems to have a nice internal consistency. Different kinds of Stuffamancers have different strategies for conserving juice when making stuff. Dirtamancers save juice by building things up out of dirt instead of directly conjuring things. Dittomancers save juice by using an existing object as a guide to help them conjure objects more easily. I guess that Changemancers save juice by changing existing stuff into the stuff that they want.

    0beron wrote:
    So Sizemore's statement is the outlier rather than the trend.
    It's also a statement spoken by an expert in a situation where he would have no reason to lie. If it conflicts with the direction where we thought Dirtamancy was headed, that just means we were wrong about the nature of Dirtamancy, no matter how much circumstantial evidence we had.

    0beron wrote:
    I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't jibe with what we see in practice, so I'm confused as to what Rob was thinking.
    I guess he was just looking for a chance to explain something about Dirtamancy that he hadn't had a chance to show us in the story. Summer Updates were a great opportunity for that sort of thing, and they are filled with wonderful details we might never learn otherwise. I guess that he was anticipating someday using this ability of Dirtamancy more directly in the story and wanted to let us know that it could happen. Now it won't be a surprise.

    0beron wrote:
    I'm leaning towards it falling under the same acid-twip-caliber discussion as what follows, about Erf-time.
    Surely there's no doubt that Erf-time is real and works just as described, no matter how drunk they were when talking about it. It may be a bit tricky to imagine, but Erfworlders would never get a thing like that wrong. It seems pretty fundamental to their day-to-day lives.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:29 am 
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    On relative time, not only is it real, but we later see Ansom having sleep problems because of it.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:43 am 
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    I enjoyed this whole segment.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:19 pm 
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    Dirt and earth are synonyms . Or in this case, dirt and erf. Dirtamancers manipulating Erf is not a big surprise using that logic. Also, Sizemore's magical implement is called an Erfmover spade. His ability to manipulate non-dirt things may be related to that.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:24 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Only idiots such as Zer0beron think that trimancer links work the way he thinks trimancer links work.


    I want to bring this post to the attention of the mods. Direct personal attacks and insults have no place here.

    This is a heated debate and there's no reason to resort to name calling.
    It's not a heated debate. I feel nothing other than that the points I make are accurate, and that the points I argue against are inaccurate. There is no 'heat' involved, for my part at least.

    And you can't really just say that you want to bring something to the attention of the mods. You need to either PM one of them or click the little '!' at the top of each post.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:38 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    GWvsJohn wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Only idiots such as Zer0beron think that trimancer links work the way he thinks trimancer links work.


    I want to bring this post to the attention of the mods. Direct personal attacks and insults have no place here.

    This is a heated debate and there's no reason to resort to name calling.
    It's not a heated debate. I feel nothing other than that the points I make are accurate, and that the points I argue against are inaccurate. There is no 'heat' involved, for my part at least.

    And you can't really just say that you want to bring something to the attention of the mods. You need to either PM one of them or click the little '!' at the top of each post.

    So because you aren't heated, that makes it okay to call someone an idiot? Yeah, sure, that makes sense...

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:32 pm 
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    ....


    Last edited by GWvsJohn on Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:50 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    So because you aren't heated, that makes it okay to call someone an idiot? Yeah, sure, that makes sense...


    Wait, you don't start insulting strangers because they disagree with you about a free comic with a perfectly calm head? No, that doesn't sound right.

    Of course I do! What kind of a moron are you?

    :D

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:51 pm 
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    That's how I do it. Don't know about the rest of you idiots. ;)

    Shit ninjas. Ninjas everywhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:12 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Dirt and earth are synonyms . Or in this case, dirt and erf.
    Are dirt and erf really synonyms? I'm not so sure. Consider Book 0, Episode 1:
    "This thread was being drawn up by the system of the world. Thinkamancers knew it as a 'Grandiocosmic string.' Its numbers were being shaped and guided by the firmament, by what magic theorists called the Erf Axis."

    This makes it sound like Erf is the firmament, totally opposite to dirt. I have no idea what the firmament has to do with any of this, but there it is.

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     Post subject: Re: Lord Crush - Part 5
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:43 pm 
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    Okay, guys, if you aren't going to stay on topic, then take the conversation to a new thread.
    Also, any more namecalling, and a few people are going to be taking a few days off.

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