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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:51 pm 
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If that were the case, then no history books about Faq would exist because it has had an uninterrupted chain of leadership.

edit: or this is set well into the future, after the fall of Faq for the last time and presumably Charlsecomm.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:32 am 
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    It would seem FAQ has existed 3 or 4 times.
    1. Original, ending with Haffaton destroying them
    2. Refounded by claiming Efbaum, which is how Wanda turned to it, and presumably ends when the Raze Efbaum per their agreement with Charlie
    3. Refounded again by reclaiming FAQ City with Charlie's help. Ended by Stanley.
    4. Refounded by Jillian at the same site, still in existence.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:11 pm 
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    MadZuri wrote:
    edit: or this is set well into the future, after the fall of Faq for the last time and presumably Charlsecomm.

    We have to hope that it isn't set in the future; if it is, that means that Parson had no permanent effect on Erfworld at all.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:31 pm 
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    Or Parson simply hasn't spread across all of the Erf yet.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:31 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Refounded by claiming Efbaum, which is how Wanda turned to it, and presumably ends when the Raze Efbaum per their agreement with Charlie
    Wanda turned to Faq while Efbaum still belonged to Haffaton.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:36 pm 
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    Hmmm ok interesting point.

    Well all our other evidence clearly shows a side does indeed end when it is without cities. So I would posit 3 possible explanations, in descending order of likelihood:
    • As formal guests of Haffaton, with their upkeep being paid by such, FAQ again became a side.
    • One may still have Loyalty to a side that technically no longer exists. Perhaps explains why Turned units have notoriously low Loyalty, even after their former side is gone.
    • Rob doesn't care about the mechanic, and picked Wanda's words for effect rather than technical accuracy.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:25 pm 
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    Perhaps it's a form a natural Signamancy? When Faq had been conquered by Haffaton, King Banhammer still considered himself King of Faq, and he still had units that still considered themselves to be part of that side. In that case, the side persisted. When they captured Efbaum, the resulting capital side was merely a continuation of the former with a new capital. Later, when Gobwin Knob razed Faq, Princess Jillian, the heir, didn't want to become queen. She preferred remaining a barbarian out in the field, therefore she became a barbarian and Faq fell. In the case of Charlie, he wanted to sever all ties in with the past, so old El-Efbaum ceased to exist, and a new side, Charlescomm began elsewhere. So, perhaps a ruler that loses their capital gets to chose if the side ends or not, even if it happens at a subconscious level.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:37 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Rob doesn't care about the mechanic, and picked Wanda's words for effect rather than technical accuracy.
    I suspect the mechanic is something like "The unit chooses to sincerely turn." Ossomer turned with not a word. The words are just a formality.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:27 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Well all our other evidence clearly shows a side does indeed end when it is without cities.
    Not quite all our other evidence. There's also Book 0, Episode 52:
    Jillian: "But...Faq didn’t fall."
    Olive: "Faq, Otoh, and Kibo are Haffaton cities now."
    Jillian: "I’m not a Ruler. My father escaped, didn’t he?"

    Leaving aside the fact that Jillian is explicitly stating that Faq didn't fall, there's also the interesting question of what she means by "I'm not a Ruler." Suppose Banhammer had died, wiping out Faq even more totally like what happened later with Stanley, then what would Jillian have expected to be Ruler of? She seems to be saying that Faq still exists as long as it has a Ruler.

    0beron wrote:
    As formal guests of Haffaton, with their upkeep being paid by such, FAQ again became a side.
    That works, but Banhammer was able to give orders to Jillian even before they were properly guests of Haffaton, as seen in Book 0, Episode 57, so Faq must have become a side again at least as early as the beginning of their parley, when Haffaton surely wasn't paying any upkeep. Then there is Episode 56 where Olive said "Faq is in our battlespace this morning," suggesting that Faq was a side at least as early as when it entered Haffaton territory, but that might just have been Olive's choice of words.

    0beron wrote:
    One may still have Loyalty to a side that technically no longer exists.
    That's possible. That all depends on the technical definition of existing for a side, and unfortunately we don't know those rules.

    0beron wrote:
    Rob doesn't care about the mechanic, and picked Wanda's words for effect rather than technical accuracy.
    It was more than just words. Her turning needed to be accepted by Faq. Her raiment instantly changed to Faq's color. Something mechanical clearly happened; it wasn't just Wanda being dramatic.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:53 pm 
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    To clear some confusion we may have to differentiate between a formal side and barbarian side. I propose that when a side technically falls (loses a capital) with leadership in the field, those leadership stacks become a barbarian side. Based on a thought experiment. What happenes when 2 barbarians meet in the wild? Are they not allowed to engage because there is only one barbarian 'side'? Will they always view the others as enemies because neither has sides? In my mind, each roving stack probably views itself (and functions) as its own barbarian side... able to engage or merge with one group turning to the other. But not a formal side. No books popping about their exploits.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:04 pm 
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    Edit: I completely forgot that we saw Wanda be instantly turned from Ruler to Barbarian when Goodminton fell, unequivocally.

    OK, FAQ definitely fell when Haffaton took their cities, and again later when Stanley conquered it (although it is interesting that Wanda was able to turn to a "side" which was barbarian at the time). I don't take Lord Crush Part 2 to mean that Lord Crush has a copy of Faq's history, though. Just Banhammer's vanity-published book (which may or may not have been published at the time Olive read it in Faq's library, but it's certainly reasonable to suppose Banhammer would publish it later). In any event, even if Crush has it, it could easily be the history of Faq as published after it was conquered by Haffaton, not after it was conquered by Stanley or in the future

    As far as Parson getting access to books, one would think that if there was a place on Erf which had a giant library, maybe even a relatively complete library Library Of Congress style, it would be the Magic Kingdom.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:11 pm 
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    Does a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

    Are there any rules of Erf that says your Sidename has to be unique?
    When you pick a name for a Side you are creating, does it have to be a name nobody else has thought of so far? If you pick a name that already exists, does your city look like and pop like the previous city?
    These boring details Lord Crush is reading, do they give exact erfly time and coordinates, so you can tell failed side SuperDuper (year 42, coord xx0, yy0) from failed side SuperDuper (year 400, coord xx1, yy1)?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:54 pm 
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    Arky wrote:
    FAQ definitely fell when Haffaton took their cities, and again later when Stanley conquered it (although it is interesting that Wanda was able to turn to a "side" which was barbarian at the time).
    That contradicts what Jillian said in Episode 52, and I can't think of anything that specifically supports it. Unless there's some evidence, "definitely" is too strong a word.

    Arky wrote:
    I don't take Lord Crush Part 2 to mean that Lord Crush has a copy of Faq's history, though.
    I agree. It seems like the odds of a library having any particular book is pretty low, so Principles is probably the only book that Crush has for Faq. The only thing that suggest that Faq has a history in the library is when it says, "The fact that each of those sides had a book in the library meant that they’d all failed in one way or another," but that seems doubtful. Earlier it was made clear that only the automagically published histories meant that the side had fallen, and now suddenly any book indicates failure. That doesn't make sense, so it must be speaking loosely. I think it's just saying that Crush has read a lot of histories of failed bubble kingdoms, and maybe also that Crush is jumping to the conclusion that Faq is just like all the others even though he may not specifically have its history.

    Arky wrote:
    As far as Parson getting access to books, one would think that if there was a place on Erf which had a giant library, maybe even a relatively complete library Library Of Congress style, it would be the Magic Kingdom.
    I think you're probably right about that, even though the Magic Kingdom doesn't have any cities and so couldn't have the sort of library that pops in cities. So I can imagine the Magic Kingdom having no library, but on the other hand I have to wonder what the Signamancers do with their time in the Magic Kingdom. I expect they keep themselves just as busy as the Thinkamancers, and I guess that involves making at least one library, or perhaps a book store.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:51 am 
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    My inference from Lord Crush's statement about Faq being a fallen side because The Principles of Peace popped in Squashcourt's library was that books, even the self-published biographies and tomes of wisdom, only pop in other sides' libraries after the original side has fallen. Once a side falls, all of their literature becomes, in effect, public domain. So, while I doubt Lord Crush has both The Principles and the history that automagically published when Faq fell, he can determine that the side fell because he has any of their books.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:28 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    That works, but Banhammer was able to give orders to Jillian even before they were properly guests of Haffaton, as seen in Book 0, Episode 57, so Faq must have become a side again at least as early as the beginning of their parley, when Haffaton surely wasn't paying any upkeep. Then there is Episode 56 where Olive said "Faq is in our battlespace this morning," suggesting that Faq was a side at least as early as when it entered Haffaton territory, but that might just have been Olive's choice of words.

    I don't think it can be just Olive's choice of words. Barbarians move first in the turn order, but Faq's turn came after Haffaton's that day. That seems to imply that they were still a side somehow, and not barbarians.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:04 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    Well all our other evidence clearly shows a side does indeed end when it is without cities.
    Not quite all our other evidence. There's also Book 0, Episode 52:
    Jillian: "But...Faq didn’t fall."
    Olive: "Faq, Otoh, and Kibo are Haffaton cities now."
    Jillian: "I’m not a Ruler. My father escaped, didn’t he?"

    Leaving aside the fact that Jillian is explicitly stating that Faq didn't fall, there's also the interesting question of what she means by "I'm not a Ruler." Suppose Banhammer had died, wiping out Faq even more totally like what happened later with Stanley, then what would Jillian have expected to be Ruler of? She seems to be saying that Faq still exists as long as it has a Ruler.


    I read this exchange as Jillian initially assuming that if Faq had fallen then her father would have been croaked. Since she had not become a ruler (barbarian or otherwise), that meant her father was alive, which she assumed meant Faq had not fallen. Once Jillian heard that each of Faq's cities had fallen (and believed it), she realized that Faq could have fallen but that her father survived.

    This would of course mean she couldn't tell the difference between being part of a normal side and being part of a barbarian side. As far as I am aware we have no reason to believe that anyone other than the ruler would have some automatic sense of that. We've seen very few cases of non-ruler units being part of barbarian sides, and I think this is the only one in which such a unit does not have specific knowledge of the fall of their side. Alternatively, she might not have been aware because she was a prisoner at that point.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:29 pm 
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    Free Radical wrote:
    Barbarians move first in the turn order, but Faq's turn came after Haffaton's that day. That seems to imply that they were still a side somehow, and not barbarians.
    We already have two examples of a side losing its cities and immediately becoming barbarian. It happened explicitly to both Wanda and Jillian, so I can't believe there is a possibility of it not being a fact of Erfworld. If it seems that Faq didn't become barbarians then that must just be a misreading of the story. Since there is no doubt that Faq's turn came after Haffaton's, I'm forced to conclude that the rule about barbarian's moving first is actually wrong somehow. Does anyone know where that rule comes from? I see it in the wiki, but it's just another of the wiki's many uncited assertions and therefore could be just as wrong as any of the other uncited assertions. If it came from a Klog then it could be merely Parson's incomplete understanding. Could it be that barbarians that pop in the wild get first move while a capital side that loses its capital still keeps its turn order?

    tgillet1 wrote:
    I read this exchange as Jillian initially assuming that if Faq had fallen then her father would have been croaked. Since she had not become a ruler (barbarian or otherwise), that meant her father was alive, which she assumed meant Faq had not fallen. Once Jillian heard that each of Faq's cities had fallen (and believed it), she realized that Faq could have fallen but that her father survived.
    Jillian already knew that the city of Faq had been attacked and its garrison had been invaded, and as Faq's chief warlord Jillian would have known better than anyone what Haffaton could do to a tiny side like Faq that had never had to defend itself. I seriously doubt that hearing all the cities had been captured came as a surprise to Jillian. On the other hand, its true that there are multiple possible interpretations of her words, so her words are merely strong evidence that Faq didn't fall rather than actual proof.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:10 pm 
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    Maybe there's something you need to do to your capital so that you don't become barbarian. Maybe like, sit on the throne and set the capital to 'nowhere'. That way if you have an ordered evacuation like Banhammer you have side-continuity, but generally an heir in the field won't get that (but they could if the leader thought of it in time?).

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:37 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Maybe there's something you need to do to your capital so that you don't become barbarian. Maybe like, sit on the throne and set the capital to 'nowhere'. That way if you have an ordered evacuation like Banhammer you have side-continuity, but generally an heir in the field won't get that (but they could if the leader thought of it in time?).
    Overlord Firebaugh clearly knew what was coming and had time to take action in Book 0, Episode 26. I doubt he would have deliberately chosen to allow Goodminton to be destroyed if he had the power to make Goodminton survive with Wanda, even just briefly.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:49 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    We already have two examples of a side losing its cities and immediately becoming barbarian. It happened explicitly to both Wanda and Jillian, so I can't believe there is a possibility of it not being a fact of Erfworld.

    It could be a fact of Erfworld that they managed to temporarily get around in some way - most likely by magic, either from their own casters or a scroll from the magic kingdom. Carnymancy seems a possibility for tricking the rules, or Dirtamancy since it's linked to city-building, or Dittomancy to duplicate the effect of having a capital. Jillian ordered Faq to prepare to leave in an armada, so they certainly had the opportunity to attempt to have something prepared that might make such a trip easier if it was at all possible to do so.

    I admit that's all much, much less likely if barbarians being first in turn order has no actual support though, and I can't seem to find anything that does support it other than the uncited wiki entry.

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