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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:07 pm 
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IronBear wrote:
Whispri wrote:
It does look like that villain Betsy will make her forget Marika. Probably all the others too.


So wanting to stop a blood thirsty sociopath (Jillian in my mind is increasingly coming across as a sociopath) makes you a villian?

Yes. Gillian is evil, make no mistake about that. But Betsy is evil too (as was seen in the way she treated Wanda while excusing the terrible deeds of Olive Branch(like calling to like it would seem)). And the worst sin either of them has committed in Book Zero, is this. Because Gillian being evil doesn't make it alright to rape her mind and destroy who she is. Betsy is trying to impose her own, evil nature by force. Cutting up the mind of someone who trusted her and calling it healing. She's as bad as Olive Branch in her own way, I'd credit Gillian at least with not being on that level.

And who knows, if not for this betrayal, she might have turned out differently by the time of Book One. She did show concern for the lives of her soldiers and the survival of her Side in Book Zero, contrast with her reckless actions in the Future Era.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:30 pm 
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    Oh wait end of part 2??

    ROB
    DO JACK NEXT
    PLEASE

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:31 pm 
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    programancer wrote:
    Lecan wrote:
    For me, it seems certain (obvious may be too strong a word) that the jester was Jillian's will, her independence that allowed her to resist Wanda's interrogations, defy Orders and wrest victory from defeat. These are all things Jillian is unable to do in Books 1 and 2.


    You mean that the fact that Jillian stopped being a protagonist (by the time of Book 1 and 2) was justified in-universe too?

    Then again, I agree with your way of analysis. If this brain surgery thing has consequences on Jiliian's actions and behaviour, then we need to identify the differences between Jillian in Book 0 and Jillian in Book1&2. If Rob is good (and he is), then there exist differences we can spot. As you have pointed out, a blatant one is that Jillian gave in to Wanda's torture. The question is which differences can be reasonably blamed on the brain surgery thing.

    (edits are for typos)

    After having read other arguments in the thread, I see I was too hasty in my conclusion. I still think the jester is an internal force and not an external actor and that the destruction of whatever it represents is the cause for a great deal of Jillian's actions in 1 and 2. I am not sure, though, of the exact nature of the internal mechanism and thus cannot be sure of the final consequences. Jillian still has the loss of her father, good friends and most likely at least one lover ahead of her before she is the woman we first met.

    And, yes, Rob has created excellent characters and a compelling world. There are definitely those whose work does not stand up to or invite as close scrutiny as to wonder at the difference in capitalization of a single letter, for example.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:35 pm 
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    Point. Charlie seems to want to become the new god, not grant freedom. Personally I'm surprised Fate hasn't tried to organize a Charlie centric beatdown yet.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:41 pm 
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    Whee, all of my unfounded speculations on the nature of the Jester have already been posted.
    I have some much simpler questions based on the artwork :
    Who is Jillian sparring with on the lower left? Is that definitely Merika?
    Does Wanda have clothes on in the center?
    What's the symbol on Charlie-bug's forehead?

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:55 pm 
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    nargbop wrote:
    What's the symbol on Charlie-bug's forehead?
    I think it's just sensory antenea that bugs have, no symbol.

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    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:04 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    nargbop wrote:
    What's the symbol on Charlie-bug's forehead?
    I think it's just sensory antenea that bugs have, no symbol.


    Looks like Charlescomm's insignia to me.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:09 pm 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    I had a feeling Charlie was not the Biggest of the Bads.

    But no proof or even a canon hint at such a thing, until now.

    Wait for it, Parson will be about to wipe Charlie out and he'll be like "Wait, I may not be good, but I am doing it all to keep THIS THING in check." and pull back the curtain to reveal Cthulhu or something.


    I absolute agree. I don't think he is really a villian, just an antagonist.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:13 pm 
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    Lost her will? Lost her aggression?
    I'm amazed we didn't hear a little Beethoven in the background, and Jillian calling out "You've proved to me that all this ultraviolence and killing is wrong, wrong, and terribly wrong. I've learned me lesson, sir."

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:16 pm 
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    I don't think the jester represented Fate. Jillian is still fated to become Queen of Faq, and fulfills that Fate. I also am not feeling the ties between the jester and free-will or Duty. I can more readily accept the attunement, which would make for Charlie either cornering the market on Tools, or he has experienced the negative aspect of Attuning and wants to prevent it from happening again. It's also easily explained as to why he didn't perform the same surgery on Wanda -- she had not been Fated to Attune yet... she doesn't get that Fate or knowledge of such until both her and Marie are back in Faq.

    Other things to consider between this update and book 1. It helps explain why she thought of herself as Jillian Zamussels instead of Jillian Banhammer. The Banhammer aspect had been removed. It also adds to her story of one morning she was a mercenary warlord for Faq, the next morning she woke up in the field as a Barbarian. Her armour style was completely different, no longer her father's oriental inspired designs. her rations no longer pop as sushi and/or rice All of the disconnects between Book 0 Jillian and Book 1 Jillian are within that Jester, whatever he is.

    Faq, as a Side, shouldn't have fallen since it had an heir at the time the Ruler croaked. Jillian should have auto-promoted to Ruler and she should have been able to re-found the cities within Faq and rebuilt them. Something about her heir mechanism broke. She remembers Faq units, knows Wanda and Jack by name, so she didn't get a complete mind wipe of her association with Faq. She still retained her Royal status, and the Summer Updates showed us that she still retained her etiquette, though she loathed using it.

    If anything the Jester could represent the concept of family, or the influence family has on personality. Regular units don't have parents and no familial identity, so there'd be no way for Betsy to know what that was, though Charlie definitely would know. During the smoke screen incident, the Jester manifested in the last known location of Banhammer. Jillian's biggest opponent was never out in the field, where she was free to be who she was, but back home in her father's stuffy court. She never has any problem handling the harsh life out in the field, of being uncomfortable, of enduring bad weather, of constant combat, or of any of the harshness of her reality as a mercenary. What she has a severe problem with is her father's stuffy court, her father's rules, her father's pacifism, and her father's expectations of her. In her flower dreams, the jester was impotent and obnoxious, much how Banhammer's influence on her activities actually were. Actually inside of her head, the jester wielded a lot more power than she wanted to admit.

    Charlie is no stranger to battling against family. He has shown absolutely no remorse of hard feelings towards the woman who murdered his daughter; in fact, he later goes on to bank-roll said murderer. Somehow Charlie was able to sever his ties to his own family, and that was probably about the same time he withdrew and stopped pursuing warfare.

    Just musing. A lot to ponder in this one.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:23 pm 
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    multilis wrote:
    Every unit has duty


    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg

    That statement is incorrect. Only commanders have "Duty" like I said.

    Every unit has some degree of "Loyalty" though. You may have confused the two.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:28 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Hah, so Jillian gets mind-wiped after all.

    Though if the contract does successfully get Charlie to destroy the buds, then I suppose the deal accomplished what she wanted. She and Wanda are now free from the buds, forever.


    Wanda is not completely free of them. Remember from the last update. She does not crave them, but she would not turn one down if offered. Even if the cost was fairly high.

    Jillian is cured, but she had experimental mindsurgery that wiped out her memories of ever wanting them.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:30 pm 
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    hehehe426 wrote:
    Oh wait end of part 2??
    I was just going to ask this too. Does this mean book 0 is done, or will there be a part 3?

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:31 pm 
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    Wow, what a stupendous update! Brilliant!

    Anyhow, I mainly resurrected this ancient account just to point out a typo:

    "Imagination was and effective defense" - should be "an", not "and", right?

    But .. wow, great imagination, great realisation. Thanks a lot! Keep going! :)

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:38 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    It helps explain why she thought of herself as Jillian Zamussels instead of Jillian Banhammer. The Banhammer aspect had been removed.

    She was Jillian Zamussels from the very first Book 0 entry we encounter her in.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:40 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    hehehe426 wrote:
    Oh wait end of part 2??
    I was just going to ask this too. Does this mean book 0 is done, or will there be a part 3?
    The pattern seems to be 3 parts per book, and IIRC Rob mentioned somewhere that 0 would have 3 parts as well, because people have bene trying to guess who Part 3 will cover, but definitely don't quote me on it.

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    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:41 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    What actually happened there? Reading what Betsy says about wanting to change her aggression into conscience points to her trying to modify that. But looking at how Jillian acts prior to the mind-wipe and after, it seems to have completely failed - or at lest that the change is very subtle.

    The Jester I simply don't know what to think about. It seems Charlie did the following:
    1) Destroy the jester.
    2) Destroy the addiction.
    3) Destroy anything related to himself.
    4) Destroy the memories of what they did including the contract.

    I can't remember fully what's said in book 1 on the topic of Charlie by Jillian. She seems rather indifferent to Charlie while she clearly is no fan of him in this prequel. But if we disregard the jester being destroyed, is she really that damaged? She seems to have lost some tactical memories, but nothing personality-altering. Maybe that's why she's sort of the same in book 1?

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:43 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    IronBear wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    It does look like that villain Betsy will make her forget Marika. Probably all the others too.


    So wanting to stop a blood thirsty sociopath (Jillian in my mind is increasingly coming across as a sociopath) makes you a villian?

    Yes. Gillian is evil, make no mistake about that. But Betsy is evil too (as was seen in the way she treated Wanda while excusing the terrible deeds of Olive Branch(like calling to like it would seem)). And the worst sin either of them has committed in Book Zero, is this. Because Gillian being evil doesn't make it alright to rape her mind and destroy who she is. Betsy is trying to impose her own, evil nature by force. Cutting up the mind of someone who trusted her and calling it healing. She's as bad as Olive Branch in her own way, I'd credit Gillian at least with not being on that level.

    And who knows, if not for this betrayal, she might have turned out differently by the time of Book One. She did show concern for the lives of her soldiers and the survival of her Side in Book Zero, contrast with her reckless actions in the Future Era.


    I see our problem. You have a more liberal definition of villiany. If use your definition and interpertation of events then Betsy just slips over the line into villian.

    To me however villiany requires the desire to do harm purely for selfish gain. The fact that Betsy did harm is debatable. Jillian is still pretty much the same person before the mind surgery as after. The only things removed were unnecessary to Jillian (Jester, awareness of procedure) or harmful (addiction to flower power). And frankly the removal of the 'awareness of procedure' is a bit like arguing that people should be awake for all surgeries. Would you like to be awake for when they crack open your chest and perform heart surgery? Now admittedly Betsy wanted to further and remove her violent nature, but she did not when she found she could not do it safely. Again the use example, if you knew a small brain tumor was making someone into a murderous sociopath, would you leave the tumor be just because it would change who the person was?

    Finally, you have to look at the story from other points of view. This story is told from third person as interperted by Jillian. To go back to my original analogy, if you were writing a story about witnessing your own heart surgery because of a botched anastesia, would you describe it is sterile medical jaragon or would be full of jarring imagery meant to relate your fear at that moment.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:45 pm 
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    We know why Wanda wanted Jack decrypted so bad now: she can't remember all the details of the contract with Charlie and is forbidden by the contract to remember the bits she can remember about Haffaton so she can't actually provide full exposition even if the nda were somehow broken due to Charlie's Brainscrub.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:47 pm 
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    My preferred idea about the Jester is this:
    It's the Erfworld equivalent of an RPG player. He has many similarities with a fat nerd who argues about every little thing and is generally annoying. Also that nerd would be a power gamer, i.e. he sacrificed just about everything he could in order to create a clairvoyant character. So when he was removed, Jillian was no longer a - Jack would say 'aha' - heroine. So after this Parson became the new hero, Jillian being an enemy.

    Maybe Jillian was allowed to be a heroine only for as long as her quest to kill Olive lasted. Then her story as a main character was over and the game-master was given the player's character sheet for use in a later quest. That makes me wonder what's inside Parson's head. Hamstard would be too obvious, right? ^^


    Alternative explanation:
    The Jester is the "will to fight" and therefore it's the only thing worth defeating. I think Parson said something similar somewhere at the beginning of book 1. I don't know when he said it, but he certainly tried to break their will to fight by having Wanda uncroak 1000 Jetstone units. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F116.jpg
    edit: Found it: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F124.jpg
    incapable or unwilling to take the Garrison.


    Last edited by Squall83 on Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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