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 Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:04 am 
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Keldaria wrote:
3. what happens if GK comes after translvito? alot of their units appear to be "undead" so does that mean if GK's army croaks them would they NOT be able to decrypt their units? making them the strongest force to deal with wanda's growing army?


Erfworld seems to have fairly set dead/undead standards - if it lives it can be croaked, if it is croaked and you have a croakamancer it can be uncroaked.

I don't think we've seen anything yet that suggests a native of TV is immune to that process (in this update Tony croaked, Caesar thought he might croak), it is just their appearance and certain behaviors that bring undead vampires to mind, but TV isn't a nation of Uncroaked.

Lamech wrote:
Wait is Ceaser the current heir of translovito? 'Cause if he is and he gets croaked on a suicide mission, and gets decrypted... umm... yeah bad.


I guess Don knows roughly where Wanda and her forces are, so Caesar wouldn't be in any danger of decryption by going and fighing Carpool.

random_guy wrote:
Not devoting proper resources doesn't seem to match up with the fact that he is popping a royal heir. It seems to me like Don is clearly trying to get rid of Caesar. Assuming he isn't, and popping the heir was just bad timing on his part, Caesar's loyalty is still going to take a heavy hit regardless. Don seems too smart to do things on a whim, so I'm inclined to believe this was planned.


Well, it is assuming TV has the resources Caesar wants to be using against Carpool. It seems a Don might be facing:

1 - Caesar, current heir and very useful warlord, believes the war against GK is a waste and that is is wrong to being helping Jillian so much.
2 - Caesar also wants to be doing far more against Carpool and securing TV cities on the flanks
3 - Don knows, thanks to Bea, exactly what threat GK poses the entire world, and it is great. And dealing with it requires a lot of planning and focus, as well as cultivating allies like Jillian.

It could be he is trying to utilize finite resources to the best of his abilities. As it turns out Caesar was able to win in Chockula, close as it may have been, so apparently he did have just enough resources. Keep Caesar as happy as possible, but give him enough rope to hang himself if his loyalty is broken upon the Carpool issue. But I agree, I think Don, possibly like Charlie, is playing a long game, as opposed to just amassing troops like the rest of the RC seems to be doing (well, Jetstone).

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Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:09 am 
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    dirocyn wrote:
    Gez wrote:
    Megaduck wrote:
    I'm pretty sure Wanda and Stanley ARE thinking that way. However, this strikes me as highly overconfident.

    Wanda, yeah. Stanley? Not so sure about it. He's wary of the pliers. Dwagons are probably expensive units, but he's not getting them killed and decrypted, is he? And he's been giving schmuckers to the Hobgobwins so that they'd pop more and rebuild a HG population, and he's upset that he doesn't get Gobwins as well. He has also set the city to produce Twolls. Stanley is currently rebuilding as large a non-crypted army as he can; because he doesn't fully trust the Wanda's minions.


    He has more reasons than just that. He's building a non-crypted army because he can--GK is wealthy from gems and has taken cities that produce food/wealth, which are at least partially defended by decrypted (no upkeep) units. Also because he knows he'll need one vs. the Coalition. Even with the Army of the Damned and the 2-3 dwagons per turn, GK's forces are probably not what they were when Stanley started his grand losing streak. Sure he's a match for most any one side--but that won't hold against a coalition, and even Stanley knows that. He's got 200 hobgobwins, that is nothing compared to Transylvito's force of dolls and goyles. If he had 1500 gobwins to go with that, it might be enough to consider his capitol reasonably defended.

    Way back when, we determined that 14 archons would not be sufficient to take the garrison--barely. That was a garrison before the walls fell, a garrison held by uncroaked and a few casters--though with GK's uncroaked air force intact. Even with the expanded forces (more dwagons, and now there are 25 knights and 28 archons in GK), Charlie had about 600 (before he lost 28 several turns ago). Do you think GK could hold against 500 archons? Or that the Army of the Damned could survive an attack from 500 archons? No way.

    Coalition's best bet? Offer Charlie a nice chunk of cash and ALL of the spoils. 500 archons take the airspace over the Army of the Damned--which was noticeably lacking in fliers, last we knew--half of them focus on anything flying (as far as we know, just Ansom), the other half focus on Wanda. Wanda fires off any air defenses she's got (possibly none) before she goes splat. The army of the damned loses her leadership and the artifact bonus, then loses Ansom's warlord bonus. The whole army disappears in a single turn. 5 turns later, that same force (maybe fewer archons this time) shows up at GK, with one of them wielding the pliers, all lead by Jillian and whatever coalition forces can get there in time. Artifact vs. artifact--it cancels. That force vs. maybe 50 dwagons, 25 knights, and 20 archons, a few odd golems and a couple dozen twolls--with Parson's +2 and Stanley's +(?). It wouldn't matter, with those numbers.


    Charlie would not risk his forces like that especially after the volcano uncroaking, max he'd send would be 50 and that is for millions of Schmuckers :roll:.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:11 am 
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    spectralphoenix wrote:
    Given that GK has a large enough army to easily overwhelm entire sides, and that winning a fight usually means that you gain more decrypted than you lose (as seen in Wrigley's case, a lot of the troops defending a city don't get a chance to fight before the city falls) enemies are literally more useful than allies.

    ***snip***

    Additionally, the Arkenpliers themselves make diplomacy difficult. It's simple game theory - if you ally with GK and they defeat the RCC2, it becomes a win-win for GK to kill and decrypt you once they've dealt with everyone else. Carpool's actions make sense if they're predicting the RCC2 to beat GK even with a weakened TV, but there is no scenario in which it would make sense to ally with GK.


    And now for this.

    GK, as you rightly point out, does not need allies, it needs disunity in opponents. Which apparently happens, with Carpool sniping at Transylvito and Charlie getting side-lined.

    That said, it is not necessarily the case that the other Erfworlders know that GK does not need allies. Given that there was a diplomatic approach to Queen Bea, GK at least keeps up appearances (in hindsight, very bright of them). It took a long time (~30 turns) for the other sides to know that Stanley has an army, but what exactly that army is, and what advantages it may have over regular units, is still not clear.

    In other words, there is still some room for GK to be diplomatically deceiving, especially since the "equation's changed" etc.

    PS: about the Charlie discussion.

    Charlie has 600+ archons spread out over the entire world. Calling all those back will take lotsa time and moolah, since it takes them out of already existing contracts. Which Charlie is surely loath to break.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:20 am 
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    BoopingCynic wrote:
    Charlie would not risk his forces like that especially after the volcano uncroaking, max he'd send would be 50 and that is for millions of Schmuckers :roll:.


    Heh, he could burn some calcs trying to work out how many Archons it would take for him to take GK in the next so many turns (again).

    He wouldn't of course, because it would be a waste, GK has to many options now if it knows Charlie was planning something like that.

    Still Wanda seems like the only obvious weak link in GK current offensive, simply because GK needs her attuned with the pliers to continue as it is.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:40 am 
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    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    Still Wanda seems like the only obvious weak link in GK current offensive, simply because GK needs her attuned with the pliers to continue as it is.


    Wanda is hardly a weak link. She's smart enough to get both Ansom's and Parson's adivce, constantly. The only way to get to her phyically is to have already defeated the rest of the army, and she's a powerful caster wielding an artifact. She's going to have the most powerful units available guarding her.

    The weak link in GK's current offensive is now, and always has been, Stanley.
    GK has all the tools in place it needs to take over the world, and the biggest thing standing in its way is the Tool.

    Stanley sidelined the Perfect Warlord.
    Stanley orders Ansom back from the front every few turns, creating a cranky and sleep-deprived Chief Warlord.
    Stanley refuses to even speak to Charlie, even though now would be a PERFECT time to get Charlie working for GK. (And any Archons that died under contract would become GKs!)
    Stanley is wasting resources looking for Gobwins instead of building an army of uncroaked marbits, who are clearly plentiful.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:47 am 
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    Don't listen to him, Stanley! MarbitChow is made of Marbits!

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:56 am 
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    We just jumped ahead by 14 turns. That is enough time for Parson to have a walk
    with a different pair of archons each turn. So he should know them all by now 8-)

    I wonder what else he did during those turns,
    - optimize the dwagon-scouting to get more range, to also look for gobwin ?
    - get a worldmap ?
    - discover Faq was rebuilt ?
    - get the archons to start producing cloth-golems, and teach dance-fighting ?
    - have a concert (or a dicco) in the amphitheater ?
    - have a wagon or litter constructed, to move outside of GK ?
    - hire casters / buy scrolls from the MK ?
    - finally find an interesting book in the library ?

    Ah, the suspense is killing me :mrgreen:

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:02 pm 
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    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Wait is Ceaser the current heir of translovito? 'Cause if he is and he gets croaked on a suicide mission, and gets decrypted... umm... yeah bad.


    I guess Don knows roughly where Wanda and her forces are, so Caesar wouldn't be in any danger of decryption by going and fighing Carpool.
    Won't matter in the least if Carpool decides to move the corspe over too GK. And assuming that Carpool actually has one of those portals to the MK, won't be that hard. It only comes down to if Carpool thinks it has a better chance with Stanley or with RCCII. Its a risk, the chance is slim, but the damage is huge.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:12 pm 
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    My take on this is simple.

    As per Don, Caesar is popular with the troops.

    Possibly he knows about Caesar and Bunny.

    He definitely knows from Bea that the decrypted are still themselves, with new loyalty.

    If/when Caesar dies and is decrypted, his own troops, and possibly Bunny, might turn against him.

    If he sends Caesar off to die in Carpool....no chance of that.

    Either way, he is popping an heir without talking to Caesar, he plans on getting rid of Caesar.

    (Signed up to post, great comic, great summer updates.)

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:14 pm 
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    hajo wrote:
    We just jumped ahead by 14 turns. That is enough time for Parson to have a walk
    with a different pair of archons each turn. So he should know them all by now 8-)

    ***snip***

    Ah, the suspense is killing me :mrgreen:


    Holy Boop, I didn't even notice that, I thought 14 turns would be full of significant developments!

    And yes, I for one am a bit ... upset ... that Book 2 is a prequeloid and not a continuation. Things are rolling so fine here, and now I have to wait for another 2 years until I find out what's going to happen next?!

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:23 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    And yes, I for one am a bit ... upset ... that Book 2 is a prequeloid and not a continuation.


    Huh? Book 2 follows on from the summer updates (unless something has changed).

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:26 pm 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    And yes, I for one am a bit ... upset ... that Book 2 is a prequeloid and not a continuation.


    Huh? Book 2 follows on from the summer updates (unless something has changed).


    That would be terriffic, but can you point me to an announcement that says so? I ask because long, loooong ago, when Rob announced Book 2 he said something along the lines of Book 2 following events leading to and in parallel with "The Battle for Gobwin Knob".

    *goes hunting*
    *returns*

    Ok, according to this http://www.erfworld.com/category/site-news/page/26/,

    Quote:
    Book 2 takes place a lot of days/turns ahead of the end of Book 1. That's the "narrative distance" I mentioned in the GiantITP forums.


    Now, "turns ahead" may mean "turns after", but that's not how I parse it. Then again, from the same place

    Quote:
    To cover that narrative distance, we are going to have limited updates during the summer, at least 2 pages a week.


    It may be that my second language English has finally betrayed me. So which is it?

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    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:30 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio, Rob originally said, at the start of the Summer Updates thread, that the Updates would take us to about 90 to 100 turns after the Battle of Gobwin Knob.


    Don apparently didn't start the process of popping a heir until after Caesar sent in this message to Bunny. And this message reveals that while Caesar had the tactical skill to (just barely) beat the Carpoolian ambush, he still hasn't grasped the magnitude of the strategic threat posed by Gobwin Knob. Decryption changes everything, and yet Caesar is as blind to its significance as the Carpoolians. If Caesar had his way, Transylvito would be abandoning the RCC. I suspect that Bunny may have shared this message with Don, and that it's forced Don to the realization that Caesar simply doesn't the strategic mind needed to be a Ruler. Remember that Bunny spent a lot of time working with Queen Bea, so she probably feels the emotional loss of Unaroyal a lot more strongly than Caesar does.


    Last edited by Glenn on Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:33 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    That would be terriffic, but can you point me to an announcement that says so? I ask because long, loooong ago, when Rob announced Book 2 he said something along the lines of Book 2 following events leading to and in parallel with "The Battle for Gobwin Knob".


    He said that there would be a "narrative distance". Is that what you are thinking of?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm 
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    raphfrk, yes. See also my previous post, I added a link to an announcement on this site where that narrative distance is explained a little. It is that explanation that confuses me.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm 
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    Popping a Royal heir makes sense.
    If you are going to use your best warlord especially against something unstoppable you want to pop a replacement for him.

    Charlie would never ever send all of his archons to take on GK.
    Here is one possible scenario:
    Charlie send all his archons to attack, they team up with Jillian. The kill wanda and claim the arkenpliers the arkenhammer.
    Transylvito attack charlie and destroy him easily since his main air force is no there. Ceasear claims the Arkendish, Charlies forces disband, Jillian claims pliers, Vinne claims the hammer.
    Transyvito has 2 arkentools and its puppet kingdom has one. Not the outcome Charlie wants.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:40 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Don't listen to him, Stanley! MarbitChow is made of Marbits!

    Ack! That's like saying that Puppy Chow is made of Puppies!
    MarbitChow is now, and always has been, made from only the finest ground Gobwins and Hobgobwins that we can get our hands on.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:42 pm 
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    According to the current newspost, that seems pretty unlikely, since they're going to switch back and forth to text updates. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that if they were planning on restarting from the beginning of these text updates.

    If anything, I'm surprised they're already making the change. I mean, "Summer Upates" was becoming increasingly inaccurate, but I figured the comic proper was going to start once Parson and/or Wanda broke with GK and Parson was staring down the barrel of impossible odds again.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:43 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    raphfrk, yes. See also my previous post, I added a link to an announcement on this site where that narrative distance is explained a little. It is that explanation that confuses me.


    Apparently, different people parse sentences like that in different ways.

    For example (I think): If you move a meeting "back", does that mean it occurs later in the week or earlier?

    I think that it is meant to mean turns after book 1.

    If you look at panel 1 of book two, GK has clearly been modified to take into account the eruption and the changes to the city layout.


    Last edited by raphfrk on Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 047
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:45 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Ack! That's like saying that Puppy Chow is made of Puppies!
    MarbitChow is now, and always has been, made from only the finest ground Gobwins and Hobgobwins that we can get our hands on.


    While that neatly explains why there aren't any around, I would not trust you with my Marbits, sir.

    To raphfrk, spectralphoenix, Glenn: it certainly makes more sense that I am just confused by that whole "ahead" thing, so you're most likely right. Yay, let's get to Book 2 already then!

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