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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Lipkin wrote:
Is there a difference between breed and race beyond that one pertains to animals, and one pertains to humans? Honest question.

Erfworlders do not bleed, and do not appear to be capable of biological reproduction. Parson still bleeds, and theoretically could still reproduce given a suitable partner. This seems like a difference that is bigger than merely being different models of the same creature.


Well, I guess it all depends on whether Erfworlders are "suitable partners". If Parson or other Stupidworlders can reproduce with an Erfworlder, then they are likely a different species, but not a different, um, what's the word? Family? Like how German Shepards can breed with Chihuahuas, but not with giraffes? It's been a long time since I studied this stuff in school.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:41 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Unled stacks auto-attack (thus lacking free will)
    I'm sure that unled stacks have free will, just like everyone in Erfworld has free will. The reason they auto-attack is merely lack of training. They are eager to fight and know how to use their own weapons, but lack the skills to judge if they should attack. So an unled stack is faced with a choice: either immediately attack, or else fall apart in uncertainty as some of you decide to attack and others stay behind, or argue amongst themselves. They always take the first option because they are all good soldiers, not because they lack free will. And naturally if they are given special orders they can do other things, like the scouts that hide instead of auto-attacking. At least, that's what I read from the stories of Mary and Wrigley.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:54 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    No one in particular wrote:
    Unled stacks auto-attack (thus lacking free will)
    I'm sure that unled stacks have free will, just like everyone in Erfworld has free will. The reason they auto-attack is merely lack of training. They are eager to fight and know how to use their own weapons, but lack the skills to judge if they should attack. So an unled stack is faced with a choice: either immediately attack, or else fall apart in uncertainty as some of you decide to attack and others stay behind, or argue amongst themselves. They always take the first option because they are all good soldiers, not because they lack free will. And naturally if they are given special orders they can do other things, like the scouts that hide instead of auto-attacking. At least, that's what I read from the stories of Mary and Wrigley.

    Two quotes for ya:
    Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals. I don't know how melee works without a Warlord in the group. With a Warlord the fight can be directed, or the group can choose not to initiate a fight.

    Standing in an unled stack blessed [Wrigley] with a feeling of comfort, purpose, unity. Wrigley was one of many like him. To either side of him was another Stabber, spear held at the same ready angle as his own. The stack was subject to orders from the Commanders in other stacks in the hex, or from the capital. But in the absence of a Warlord stacked among them, the men calmly and wordlessly stood their ground in common understanding.
    [the last commander in the area get's crushed by an LFN...]
    They were truly alone, now. The stack decided as one. Charge!

    There is no room for argument. There is no choice. Without any Leadership, the stacks practically become a hive-mind.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:25 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals. I don't know how melee works without a Warlord in the group. With a Warlord the fight can be directed, or the group can choose not to initiate a fight.
    That klog shouldn't be taken as evidence of anything. It was just Parson's very early exploration into the rules of combat from talking to people who are baffled that he doesn't already know these things. It shouldn't be any surprise that it later turns out to be incomplete information, as was proven by the existence of scouts which don't auto-attack, thereby making the quote wrong.

    No one in particular wrote:
    There is no room for argument. There is no choice. Without any Leadership, the stacks practically become a hive-mind.
    It may be practically a hive mind, but it's not actually a hive mind. They're just good soldiers doing what they are trained to do. They are free in their own minds, but naturally as a well-disciplined stack there's no doubt about what actions they will take, no matter what they may think about them. There's no need for any sort of Thinkamancy to make them decide to attack as one, since it's the same decision they would all reach independently.

    Knowing Wrigley and Mary as well as we do, I'm surprised that anyone could doubt their free will.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:58 pm 
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    Knowing Wrigley and Mary as well as we do, I'm surprised anyone could say they were trained at all. They popped, and were pretty much ignored until croaked.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:59 pm 
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    Is anyone stopping to consider that Erfworld just has a different version of humans? Maybe their definition of Human is different from ours. Two totally different races, species, creatures, but just same name? :?

    Lilwik wrote:
    No one in particular wrote:
    Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals. I don't know how melee works without a Warlord in the group. With a Warlord the fight can be directed, or the group can choose not to initiate a fight.
    That klog shouldn't be taken as evidence of anything. It was just Parson's very early exploration into the rules of combat from talking to people who are baffled that he doesn't already know these things. It shouldn't be any surprise that it later turns out to be incomplete information, as was proven by the existence of scouts which don't auto-attack, thereby making the quote wrong.

    No one in particular wrote:
    There is no room for argument. There is no choice. Without any Leadership, the stacks practically become a hive-mind.
    It may be practically a hive mind, but it's not actually a hive mind. They're just good soldiers doing what they are trained to do. They are free in their own minds, but naturally as a well-disciplined stack there's no doubt about what actions they will take, no matter what they may think about them. There's no need for any sort of Thinkamancy to make them decide to attack as one, since it's the same decision they would all reach independently.

    Knowing Wrigley and Mary as well as we do, I'm surprised that anyone could doubt their free will.



    Its hard to doubt that erfworlders have free will, but it also seems limited by game mechanics. The interesting thing would be why can't unled units choose not to engage for the sake of Duty to their side? Why are they forced into a terrible decision that can't be trumped by the game mechanic trumping game mechanic? I think its safe to say(well, relatively on these forums) that erfworlders have a free will limited by Leadership orders and by game mechanics.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:02 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    They popped, and were pretty much ignored until croaked.
    I think the training is included in the cost of popping them and happens automatically in the same way that casters know how to cast moments after popping. In Erfworld you don't need someone to pay any attention to you in order to get training. It's magical training, not Stupidworld training.

    TheLiontamer wrote:
    The interesting thing would be why can't unled units choose not to engage for the sake of Duty to their side? Why are they forced into a terrible decision that can't be trumped by the game mechanic trumping game mechanic?
    Because they don't know any better. They are novices thrown into a battle knowing only how to stab things and how to work with their stack. They're not trained to decide when to attack; those sorts of decisions require a battlefield awareness that's a whole higher level of sophistication which is only expected of warlords. It's just like asking why a novice computer user is forced to mash backspace in order to delete a paragraph. It's not mind control; he just doesn't know any better.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:13 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Ooh, how about the reverse? That the magic of Erfworld doesn't simulate a personality for a bunch of blank slates, but suppresses that mind & self they'd otherwise have?

    • We know that even the lowliest stabber's have some personality. (Wrigley, Mary Sagittari).
    • We also know that in Erfworld, the ability to express oneself and to take independent action are inseparably tied to authority. (Leadership is a quantifiable Special, unled stacks auto-attack (thus lacking free will), Rulers are the only units NOT beholden to someone higher up the hierarchy)
    • We've seen that it's possible to go from one extreme to the other (Stanley popped as a Piker before making his way up to Overlord)

    It could be that as there's less and less people capable of giving you orders, the world stops inhibiting the thing that would naturally make you resist those orders... a sense of individuality.


    I find this terrifying. I also currently believe it might be very true.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:26 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Xarx wrote:
    They popped, and were pretty much ignored until croaked.
    I think the training is included in the cost of popping them and happens automatically in the same way that casters know how to cast moments after popping. In Erfworld you don't need someone to pay any attention to you in order to get training. It's magical training, not Stupidworld training.


    At the risk of starting another pointless semantics argument, training is a real thing in Erfworld, distinct from innate knowledge. Remember that Artemis leveled up from training alone, though it took hundreds of turns. Newly popped units are not well-trained, they're well-programmed. That in itself doesn't prove a lack of free will; Stupidworld humans come with a fair amount of innate pre-programming too. It's just that ours is the result of billions of years of evolution.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:40 pm 
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    Hmmm... Just my own opinion but the more picutres I see, the less I like the shift in art. Especially the faces. I know not all artist draw the same, but between the three I saw for Erfworld, this easily take last place.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:00 pm 
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    Ths last update has me thinking all the more the Maggie has a crush on Parson.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:43 am 
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    There is no point my going through and pointing out where many of you deliberately or unknowingly have missed my point, and/or put words in my mouth.

    I will just point out I said categorically that I accept that they "are people", I said specifically
    " I accept they seem to have a sort of limited self-awareness, and maybe something like our illusion of free will too, and wasn't saying that they have no "human" feelings ".

    Anyway, nice to see that the majority of posters are adherents to David Brin's theory of the Western Worlds Inclusiveness being its Superiority. Just a being, being something a little like humans, blinds you all to their utter non-humanness, the sheer impossibility of them being human, and makes you grumpy with someone who gently points it out. :) ( by the way, I also suffer from this feeling that merely communicating makes any being a "people" and, further, our self respect makes it vital we offer all "people" the rights and obligations of being "Human" too, if they like to join the family. It won't actually make them human, but it will be nice of us to offer. :P )

    However, Dante, really now, Banhammer didn't "fall in love" with Olive, she used one of the inhuman Erf-world mechanisms against him, and so, yeah, "Love" triumphed over "Duty and Loyalty" for a certain (inhuman) value of the three things.

    And Lilwik, yes, actually being brought into existence, and fuelled and controlled by magic pretty much seems to be a working definition of "not human". I accept that we can think of them as a sort of "human" alright, unfortunately it is a "Magical Simulacrum of a Human, with many differences".

    CorrTerek wrote:

    See, I don't get what the point of quoting that bit was. You're making the argument that they're not human, and I guess you're quoting that to make a point about how alien their thought processes are.

    But...I'm sure that there are people across the globe whose cultures, ideas, and beliefs are completely alien to me. I've met some even within my own country. If I'm understanding your logic correctly, that would make them not human?

    No, you got my meaning reversed there, maybe because you seem to have accidentally only quoted half the thought, I understand why you did I guess, it was a long thought. My point started there with this
    "And specifically to what I was asking, Parson has spent his entire life as a ( assuming we nerds still qualify) human, in human company, human society. Now his company, society, is these non-human, randomly-controlled-often people".
    I went on to make the point that ftl knew in his own experience of how even one of the human cultures can be so different as to be impossible for a stranger to live safely in. And that by analogy I was saying ftl also knew perfectly well my point about Parson being vulnerable in particular ways to the alien culture he is in now.
    Jabberwocky, yeah, I also hate that conversation about Neurochemistry and free will, mostly because it is so depressing for anyone who enters it thinking Free Will is an obvious given. If you do track me down to eat me, let's just say we did and not?. :)

    Jabberwocky wrote:
    And speaking of biology. Is Parson biologically human anymore? Obviously his summoning changed some things. Will he age? If a Dwagon eats his arm, will it grow back at the start of turn? Will his corpse rot? Can he make babies with Maggie? Can he make babies with ACE? Does he even have DNA anymore or some kind of Erfworld equivalent? After all, he eats their food just fine. And their food would be designed for them. Is his Stupidworld flesh slowly being replaced by Erfworld flesh?


    Very good questions, I like the way you think. I also want to add, can he actually be croaked?.
    Anyway it is such a good example of what I was saying when you say "Can he make babies with Maggie? Can he make babies with ACE?"

    VERY GOOD, I thank you for the help. :D

    Can Parsons humanity ( his ability to make babies ) trump Maggies in-humanity ( Her utter inability, nothing to do with fertility, ABSOLUTELY INHERENT inability to make babies ) and allow them, together , to make babies.
    If you guys can shut your minds that hard, that firmly, that this seems likely, then, well, why shouldn't he also trump ACEs inabilities plural, to make babies. Man, I should let you argue my side of this, Jabberwocky, you do it so well!. :P

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:50 am 
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    Eh, I bet Erfworld would trump both of them. Parson and anybody (including another earth-being) couldn't have babies in Efrworld, at least not the conventional Earth way.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:55 am 
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    I suppose that's the main difference between us maybe?

    I'm ascribing all of the alien-ness to Erfworld itself, not to the people that live there. If Maggie were transported to Stupidworld, I figure she'd be sort of short but able to have babies the conventional earth way, she'd need to eat and wouldn't heal at dawn and wouldn't have magic telepathy powers. Conversely, Parson's been transported to Erfworld, so now he has magic telepathy powers and gives a Bonus and runs into hex boundaries and heals at dawn. And if he became overlord, he'd be able to order his capital to pop him an heir, but as it is he can't have children the normal way because Erfworld doesn't work that way.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:00 am 
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    Maybe something like that could come up in future books! Well, not about Maggie transported to Earth and having children. But maybe some story arc where Parson and a few people get transported back to Earth and he has to make a choice whether to stay there or go back to Erfworld, all the while the people he is with are like "wait why didn't my soiled underwear clean at dawn? what's this red liquid dripping out of me where I scraped my knee?"

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:16 am 
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    :D :D :D

    I just thought of the best fanfic idea!

    The Real World: Stupidworld!
    This is the true story... of seven strangers... picked to live in a house...work together and have their lives taped... to find out what happens... when people stop being polite... and start getting real...The Real World.

    I'm imagining... Jack, Sizemore, Wanda, Jillian, Maggie, Ansom and... hmm... Jojo? You know, someone sketchy to stir things up.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:22 am 
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    Tonot wrote:
    And Lilwik, yes, actually being brought into existence, and fueled and controlled by magic pretty much seems to be a working definition of "not human".
    I could never agree with that as a definition of "not human" because of all the things we would be forced to accept as human. On top of that, why should having magic applied to a person make that person less human? Surely you'd still consider yourself human if some wizard started fueling you and controlling you by magic.

    Least of all should being brought into existence by magic matter. If a wizard conjured a thing that looked like a hamburger, tasted like a hamburger, and seemed to be exactly a hamburger according to all imaginable examinations, then would you be the only one to refuse to call it a hamburger simply because it was created by magic instead of by ordinary means?

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:24 am 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    :D :D :D

    I just thought of the best fanfic idea!

    The Real World: Stupidworld!
    This is the true story... of seven strangers... picked to live in a house...work together and have their lives taped... to find out what happens... when people stop being polite... and start getting real...The Real World.

    I'm imagining... Jack, Sizemore, Wanda, Jillian, Maggie, Ansom and... hmm... Jojo? You know, someone sketchy to stir things up.

    Needs a jock. Get Stanley in there.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:28 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    I suppose that's the main difference between us maybe?

    I'm ascribing all of the alien-ness to Erfworld itself, not to the people that live there. If Maggie were transported to Stupidworld, I figure she'd be sort of short but able to have babies the conventional earth way, she'd need to eat and wouldn't heal at dawn and wouldn't have magic telepathy powers. Conversely, Parson's been transported to Erfworld, so now he has magic telepathy powers and gives a Bonus and runs into hex boundaries and heals at dawn. And if he became overlord, he'd be able to order his capital to pop him an heir, but as it is he can't have children the normal way because Erfworld doesn't work that way.

    Because Parson still bleeds, while others don't, I'm figuring that there IS a distinct difference in physiology between Parson and the rest of Erf's units. Based on that, I'm assuming Parson would still be capable of reproducing the natural way, were there a suitable female to accomplish such a thing with. Were an erfling transported to stupidworld, I think they would still not bleed, and would still be unable to reproduce. Who knows if female erflings even ovulate or have eggs? I assume not, as what point would there be? Bright side? No pms.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:53 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    I suppose that's the main difference between us maybe?

    I'm ascribing all of the alien-ness to Erfworld itself, not to the people that live there. If Maggie were transported to Stupidworld, I figure she'd be sort of short but able to have babies the conventional earth way, she'd need to eat and wouldn't heal at dawn and wouldn't have magic telepathy powers. Conversely, Parson's been transported to Erfworld, so now he has magic telepathy powers and gives a Bonus and runs into hex boundaries and heals at dawn. And if he became overlord, he'd be able to order his capital to pop him an heir, but as it is he can't have children the normal way because Erfworld doesn't work that way.


    Alright. This alone of all you have posited, convinced me there is some possible merit in your ( seeming, to me, slightly skewed ) idea that they may be humans after all. And maybe the super-spell that summoned Parson was straining at its bonds, and so brought a "human" into the game without wiping its memory of being human?. Or used up its proper-popping magic in other aspects of its effect?.

    Lilwik wrote:
    Tonot wrote:
    And Lilwik, yes, actually being brought into existence, and fueled and controlled by magic pretty much seems to be a working definition of "not human".
    I could never agree with that as a definition of "not human" because of all the things we would be forced to accept as human. On top of that, why should having magic applied to a person make that person less human? Surely you'd still consider yourself human if some wizard started fueling you and controlling you by magic.

    Least of all should being brought into existence by magic matter. If a wizard conjured a thing that looked like a hamburger, tasted like a hamburger, and seemed to be exactly a hamburger according to all imaginable examinations, then would you be the only one to refuse to call it a hamburger simply because it was created by magic instead of by ordinary means?

    "A working definition" means I accept it does need work, right?. At least it does in New Zealand English, but then there is so much divergence in the International English-es.

    No, I wouldn't consider myself still human if some magician made me "work" the way Erf-world makes their people work. In fact, I would not be human any more, I would be some sort of golem or liche or ghoul, all things universally known to be "Not Human". Right?.
    And, no, I bet I would not be the only person sure it was not to be accurately called "hamburger", purely because lots of people are logical and would say "At best we can call it a sort of qualified "hamburger" because real hamburger is not conjured, it is ground up from nominally eatable bits of bovine". In actual fact, the US FDA would probably go for anyone selling conjured "Hamburger", cause it wasn't real.

    Re their being human, have we seen any entrails when they have been cut into bloody gobbets?. No liver 'n' lights = no humanity.

    (edit to add, why are you guys all out of bed, isn't it the nightime there still? )

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