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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Kreistor wrote:
3) Archons is incredibly unlikely. Archons Fly and could come in via Airspace and undefended Tower. Only a ground force with no siege needs the gate opened.


This only applies if the objective is to take the city. If the objective is to take Olive, there's no need for that. Besides, is it even possible for Charlescomm to enter the city airspace off-turn? I'm pretty sure it isn't.


Last edited by Xarx on Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:14 pm 
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    The troops were Haffaton; they burnt the garden at Olives command once her turn started; she knew anyone approaching the city on her turn would get her croaked, so she ordered her nearby units to burn the forest to give cover for her escape, but when she died the units didn't disband, they switched allegiance to Charlie; their old ruler. This is why they cry "the witch is dead".

    Now Charlie will force the treaty on Faq units, to hold until death, that they might never reveal to anyone what they know about him.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:32 pm 
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    Althernai wrote:
    Given this, what does Jack know about Charlie that would warrant Wanda being so worried about him being able to tell Parson? The only reliable fact they got was that he was a Carnymancer. Everything else was either second-hand (from Wanda via the Haffaton court) or from Olive who is quite deceptive despite her tendency to avoid outright lies. Regardless of which of them spoke the truth, there's nothing of obvious value there.
    I'm sure there's no reason for Wanda or Charlie to care about the reliability of the knowledge. If Jack and Wanda know even an unfounded rumor that happens to accurately reveal some critical secret about Charlie, that would be enough.

    Now I think it's clear that the story doesn't end with the death of Olive. Charlie needs to make another appearance and Faq needs to get back to its hidden cities, or some equivalently hidden cities. Since they are both in the mountains, I wonder how far the capital of Charlescomm is from Faq? It seems at this point the only way that they will discover Charlie's secrets is by actually going there.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:04 pm 
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    This update was extremely satisfying on many levels. I root for Team Jillian!*. And White Lilies are laid on coffins in New Zealand, and as far as I remember, Ireland and possibly all of Great Britain.


    *There is a joke in there for Anzacs. :lol:

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:10 pm 
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    hehehe426 wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Also, I just googled the signamancy of lilies, and it seems white lilies symbolize innocence. Take from that what you will.

    Actually, lilies are also the flower of death. I think it's rather appropriate.
    Well, yes. I noticed that too. But even then, it was used either for dead innocents, or to represent that in death innocence is restored. At least that's what google says. Doesn't seem to be associated with death itself, but the death aspect comes from its association with innocence. Why not turn her back into a pink flower? Why the Signamancy of a white lily? Just thought it was an interesting flower to choose on the writers part is all, so I looked it up.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:20 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    3) Archons is incredibly unlikely. Archons Fly and could come in via Airspace and undefended Tower. Only a ground force with no siege needs the gate opened.


    This only applies if the objective is to take the city. If the objective is to take Olive, there's no need for that. Besides, is it even possible for Charlescomm to enter the city airspace off-turn? I'm pretty sure it isn't.


    That requires Charlie discounting the possibility of a Guilty verdict and death sentence. If he wants to rescue/capture Olive, a fast Archon siege on Tower is far more likely to succeed vs. Olive successfully overcoming a plethora of opposing Casters and Warlords. Charlie doesn't permit losing options to exist, wherever possible, and we just saw him lose Olive.

    Steve-D wrote:
    The troops were Haffaton; they burnt the garden at Olives command once her turn started; she knew anyone approaching the city on her turn would get her croaked, so she ordered her nearby units to burn the forest to give cover for her escape, but when she died the units didn't disband, they switched allegiance to Charlie;


    We saw how fast units Disband when a Ruler dies already: it's instantaneous, with no opportunity to Turn to another Side.

    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE043_NoIllustration.png

    If it were possible, some that knew Cruz may have thought joining her in life with GK better than oblivion. Or at least switching Sides to some other GK enemy and fighting, instead of suicide.

    Shai wrote:
    Why the Signamancy of a white lily?


    White is the colour of death in many Asian cultures, instead of European's black. I don't know that's important in this case, but thought I'd point it out in case someone else can link that in.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:46 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    If it were possible, some that knew Cruz may have thought joining her in life with GK better than oblivion. Or at least switching Sides to some other GK enemy and fighting, instead of suicide.


    You know, that suddenly makes me ask: Shouldn't Queen B have just razed her cities and then did a runner to Jetstone or Transylvito to turn? I'm sure Jetstone would've loved the extra soldiers and schmuckers

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:22 pm 
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    The High Elves are natural allies of Haffaton. The Gobwins rose up and disposed of King Saline the IV. If Charlie can mess with natural allies via the Dish, and Wanda and Jack found out, that would be very important information for Parson to have.

    It also means that Charlie could potentially have a knife at Stanley's throat. The Gobwins have already taken out one ruler of Gobwin Knob. The only reason Stanley is in command is because of Charlie!

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:40 pm 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    You know, that suddenly makes me ask: Shouldn't Queen B have just razed her cities and then did a runner to Jetstone or Transylvito to turn? I'm sure Jetstone would've loved the extra soldiers and schmuckers
    That would mean leaving behind her slowest troops. I'm sure that Gobwin Knob's fastest units are much faster than Unaroyal's slowest units, especially the garrison units, so there would still be a battle and some Unaroyal units would still become decrypted, which Bea considered disgusting.

    On the other hand she could have disbanded the slowest units, but she obviously dislikes mass disbandings since she went to all the trouble of putting all her units into the field so they would disband after her own death when she could have just disbanded them herself. So she's still responsible for mass murder but she gets to avoid feeling guilty about it. She surely believes that she'll have to face the Titans after she disbands, but perhaps she's not worried about that because she has no chance of getting into the City of Heroes after the stunt she pulled, and maybe units that don't get in just disappear.

    Lipkin wrote:
    It also means that Charlie could potentially have a knife at Stanley's throat. The Gobwins have already taken out one ruler of Gobwin Knob. The only reason Stanley is in command is because of Charlie!
    That's a great point! The reason that the gobwins killed Saline IV has always been a huge mystery hanging over this story, especially after Book 2, Text 4. If Wanda and Jack somehow know the answer to that, I'm not surprised that Wanda would want to tell Parson immediately.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:48 pm 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    You know, that suddenly makes me ask: Shouldn't Queen B have just razed her cities and then did a runner to Jetstone or Transylvito to turn? I'm sure Jetstone would've loved the extra soldiers and schmuckers


    She was heartbroken over seeing her daughter killed and converted to her most hated enemy, I assumed. Driven to suicide. Also I think a Royal Ruler would have too much Pride (if it can be a stat) to run crying to another side. Pride seems to be a really big thing amongst the Crowns, even Jill and Don.

    Also, I just realized -- Charlie is (almost definitely) preventing Gobwins from spawning for Gobwin Knobb, and was a key element in switching another tribal faction's allegiance to Jill's Side. That implies something about a function of the 'Dish, doesn't it?

    That must mean the army waiting outside the city for Venus-man-trap-a-saur was a natural ally force, seeing as they hadn't disbanded upon her death, meaning did Charlie assist in the kill?

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:58 pm 
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    Zippy the Squirrel wrote:
    Charlie is (almost definitely) preventing Gobwins from spawning for Gobwin Knobb, and was a key element in switching another tribal faction's allegiance to Jill's Side. That implies something about a function of the 'Dish, doesn't it?
    No, it only implies that Charlie is capable of getting Natural Allies to turn somehow. Doing it probably involves the dish, but we know nothing about the details of it. If Wanda and Jack have a great secret about the turning of Natural Allies, it's probably more than just that Charlie can do it. They probably know how Charlie does it and how it can be prevented. That is a secret that I'm sure Charlie would want to keep!

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:11 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    If he wants to rescue/capture Olive, a fast Archon siege on Tower is far more likely to succeed vs. Olive successfully overcoming a plethora of opposing Casters and Warlords.


    Again, an airborne attack on the tower has zero chance of occurring, let alone succeeding, when it's not Charlie's turn.

    It was actually a really clever plan, and it would have worked if not for Wanda reminding Jillian about the portcullis.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:41 pm 
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    If Charlie burnt the garden he would have to have units in the city, and FAQ wouldn't have been able to take it.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:03 pm 
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    That's a point of which I've been confused about for some time. Is it ever stated explicitly where the Garden is? I've been under the assumption it was a Farm-type hex just outside the city or something like that.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:08 pm 
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    hjed wrote:
    If Charlie burnt the garden he would have to have units in the city, and FAQ wouldn't have been able to take it.


    The garden is outside the city proper, as we can see in episode 50:
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_50

    So the archons don't need to be in the city; they just need to be in the neighboring hex, which happens to be the garden. Far from impossible.

    Edit: fixed link

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:22 pm 
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    Althernai wrote:
    I am confused. If Olive is really dead (is she? it looks that way, but it's not obvious), there is no reason for any further discussion of Charlie's secrets. Given this, what does Jack know about Charlie that would warrant Wanda being so worried about him being able to tell Parson? The only reliable fact they got was that he was a Carnymancer. Everything else was either second-hand (from Wanda via the Haffaton court) or from Olive who is quite deceptive despite her tendency to avoid outright lies. Regardless of which of them spoke the truth, there's nothing of obvious value there.


    What they learned so far might be enough since Charlie doens't seem to want ANYONE to know anything about him. Heck the idea that he's a canrymancer could actually hurt his business since it seems that erfworlders are very untrusting of them.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:22 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    hehehe426 wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Also, I just googled the signamancy of lilies, and it seems white lilies symbolize innocence. Take from that what you will.

    Actually, lilies are also the flower of death. I think it's rather appropriate.

    Well, yes. I noticed that too. But even then, it was used either for dead innocents, or to represent that in death innocence is restored. At least that's what google says. Doesn't seem to be associated with death itself, but the death aspect comes from its association with innocence. Why not turn her back into a pink flower? Why the Signamancy of a white lily? Just thought it was an interesting flower to choose on the writers part is all, so I looked it up.

    Hm. Good point. I got the impression that it was a white lily because yes, of the purity and the beauty of the flower. Olive is very beautiful. Jillian saw her as a flower before seeing her as prey. Kind of like she's only pretty now that she's died. Pretty and harmless. Like a flower. I don't know, I'm finding my thoughts on the subject rather hard to put into words. I kind of get why it's a white lily, though.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:49 pm 
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    Yeah, I'm convinced now from multiple people saying it that it was probably meant to be a death symbol.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:57 pm 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    What they learned so far might be enough since Charlie doens't seem to want ANYONE to know anything about him.
    It's enough for Charlie to not want them to talk about it, but it's not enough for Wanda to think Parson needs to hear about it. I doubt Parson would seriously care about any of the interesting secrets we've learned about Charlie so far.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:27 am 
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    Yeah, I definitely think that 1: There's something more that hasn't been revealed yet that they want to tell Parson and 2: Those were natural allies. I'd be willing to put some q on it, but I'm really close to my limit until some bets come through. D:



    But yeah, it only makes sense for the whole Natural Allies thing. Charlie's whole THING has been that he can goof around with Natural Allies. Others are smart, like Charlie. Others are attuned. Heck, others can even make Archons. But no one else has been able to goof around with Natural Allies like Charlie has.

    Heck, that actually might BE the secret.


    EDIT: If so, Parson needs to get rid of every natural ally he has right the heck NAOW! O.o

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