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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Lipkin wrote:
Can you explain how Delphie predicted Jillian would come to Goodminton and find the message if it wasn't rail roading that brought her there?
It was a coincidence that Goodminton happened to be in exactly the right location and just tempting enough to get Jillian to stop there along Jillian's route from Haffaton to Faq, but that was a coincidence that existed even during Delphie's lifetime. It's not as if Haffaton, Goodminton, or Faq moved anywhere in all those turns. No one but a Predictamancer would have been able to see that coincidence, but there was certainly no railroading necessary to make it happen. Sometimes coincidences just happen.

Mrtyuh wrote:
In literature, the difference between a coincidence and a contrivance is how natural it seems. The more coincidences that pile up, the more likely they will be seen as contrivances, but it is subjective to the individual reader.
I only said it wasn't railroading. I agree that it is a bit of a strange coincidence, but since it doesn't seem to have anything to do with Jillian's Fate as we understand it, then it doesn't seem like Fate's contrivance. If I was going to call it contrived, I'd say it's just an ordinary literary contrivance. In other words, it's Rob's contrivance, not Fate's. There's no good reason why Goodminton should be located between Haffaton and Faq, but apparently it was. Fate certainly wasn't moving cities around.

Mrtyuh wrote:
She could have messaged Wanda by hat. If the two had conspired together, Wanda probably could have given a virtually complete, if not entirely complete, disposition of Haffaton's units. That would have guaranteed Jillian avoiding recapture. Wanda could have given her the location of Judy and Olive, guiding her towards her Fate. Instead she chose to attack the city of Haffaton. There was a problem with that, though. Neither Judy nor Olive were there, so Fate had to intervene and literally drag her insensate to Efbaum, where her Fate awaited.
But both options would equally be Jillian's Fate. Assuming that Wanda would have done the things you describe, that would have guided Jillian toward her Fate, but equally trying to escape Haffaton without Wanda's help seems to have inevitably gotten Jillian captured, also guiding Jillian toward her Fate. That's what it means to have a natural Fate: to be in a position where no matter what choices your make there's naturally no way out, like being surrounded by your enemies on all sides. The thing about Sylvia's Fate that makes it unnatural is that she could easily have been dusted by that arrow, but by strange coincidence she wasn't. Jillian had no easy way to avoid her Fate.

Mrtyuh wrote:
It's a bigger coincidence than you realize.
That's very interesting! Could you explain what part of it is a big coincidence?

Mrtyuh wrote:
Jillian had sent the Faq contingent towards the city of Haffaton, but they came to Efbaum instead.
Actually that's not true. She sent them the message in Episode 48 and it gives the full text, plus explicitly telling us that Jillian chose not to tell Faq about their target city. Without Jillian's help, they must have simply used magic to tell them where they should go.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:16 pm 
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    How is anything that ever happens in a work of fiction not railroading, please?. I swear, the funny things you guys choose to argue out in all-due-seriousness!. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:02 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Can you explain how Delphie predicted Jillian would come to Goodminton and find the message if it wasn't rail roading that brought her there?
    It was a coincidence that Goodminton happened to be in exactly the right location and just tempting enough to get Jillian to stop there along Jillian's route from Haffaton to Faq, but that was a coincidence that existed even during Delphie's lifetime. It's not as if Haffaton, Goodminton, or Faq moved anywhere in all those turns. No one but a Predictamancer would have been able to see that coincidence, but there was certainly no railroading necessary to make it happen. Sometimes coincidences just happen.

    Goodminton's location may have been coincidental, but Jillian's path was not a straight line to Faq. It's not as if she was going to spot it no matter what path she took. It wasn't a forgone conclusion that Jillian would find it, or even that she would make it there. If she hadn't tamed Crapsack, she would have been recaptured at the spot where she killed the High Elves. But Delphie predicted that Jillian would make it to Goodminton, and that she would find the hat.

    There were a ton of variables that prevent this from being statistically inevitable. All roads did not lead towards the same result. Yet Delphie knew that Jillian would make it to Goodminton, and where to put the hat where Jillian would find it.



    On a separate note, in my review of the pages to find information to back up my claims, I came across this tasty gem. Said by Delphie in her letter to Jillian.

    "At the time that you conquer this city, Lady Wanda Firebaugh is in need of help. She has paid her debt, and must now move to the next phase of her journey. Your role is to assist her in transition. It is why you exist at all."

    We were remembering that helping Wanda was the reason Jillian was supposedly popped, but I think we all missed the part that says Wanda's debt has been paid. I presume this refers to the debt detailed in the first lines of the prologue. Whatever Wanda is doing with GK and the pliers, has nothing to do with repaying her debt. To take it a step further, Jillian's job is also done. Her job was to welcome Wanda to Faq, so that Wanda could be in place to connect with Stanley, and eventually claim the pliers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:50 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Goodminton's location may have been coincidental, but Jillian's path was not a straight line to Faq. It's not as if she was going to spot it no matter what path she took. It wasn't a forgone conclusion that Jillian would find it, or even that she would make it there. If she hadn't tamed Crapsack, she would have been recaptured at the spot where she killed the High Elves. But Delphie predicted that Jillian would make it to Goodminton, and that she would find the hat.
    That's a good point. For getting to Goodminton to be Jillian's natural Fate we need to broaden the traditional idea of what is inevitable a bit. Since it seems clear that there was no magic other than Predictamancy involved, I'm willing to guess that Jillian's path through the wilderness was more predictable than it seemed. As a mere animal I think Crapsack's behavior can be taken as totally predictable, and Jillian wasn't really making free choices all the way along. Her ultimate destination was always fixed, and her choice of route was constantly being determined by things outside her control, like where the best hunting seemed to be, where she's least likely to be spotted, and avoiding possible ambushes.

    I'm aware that it's a bit shaky, but Jillian ending up in Goodminton is still in a totally different class of event than Sylvia not being hit by that arrow. It might be possible to simply predict Jillian would end up in Goodminton, but the deflected arrow is the sort of thing that would almost need to be arranged because it's highly unlikely to just happen.

    Lipkin wrote:
    "At the time that you conquer this city, Lady Wanda Firebaugh is in need of help. She has paid her debt, and must now move to the next phase of her journey. Your role is to assist her in transition. It is why you exist at all."
    That is a gem. I love the fact that Jillian was popped on the advice of a Predictamancer, so it could literally be true that Jillian was popped because she was needed to help Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:26 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    We were remembering that helping Wanda was the reason Jillian was supposedly popped, but I think we all missed the part that says Wanda's debt has been paid. I presume this refers to the debt detailed in the first lines of the prologue.
    I disagree. Delphi was constantly telling Wanda that she would pay dearly for her defiance of Fate, so I think this line is a continuance of that thinking. She means that Wanda has "paid" for her defiance with suffering. After all, Predictamancy is a Fate magic, not a Numbers one, so what would Delphi understand of Wanda's pop-debt?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:15 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    We were remembering that helping Wanda was the reason Jillian was supposedly popped, but I think we all missed the part that says Wanda's debt has been paid. I presume this refers to the debt detailed in the first lines of the prologue.
    I disagree. Delphi was constantly telling Wanda that she would pay dearly for her defiance of Fate, so I think this line is a continuance of that thinking. She means that Wanda has "paid" for her defiance with suffering. After all, Predictamancy is a Fate magic, not a Numbers one, so what would Delphi understand of Wanda's pop-debt?

    Could be.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:53 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Actually that's not true. She sent them the message in Episode 48 and it gives the full text, plus explicitly telling us that Jillian chose not to tell Faq about their target city. Without Jillian's help, they must have simply used magic to tell them where they should go.

    D'oh! I remembered that wrong. I thought Jillian gave them specific coordinates as their destination, which I assumed was within striking distance of the city of Haffaton. Instead, she just gave them a general northwest heading. The only explanation I can think of is, when I first read it, maybe I interpreted that part of the update as a summary instead of the exact text. So, yeah, I'm an idiot sometimes.

    Tonot wrote:
    How is anything that ever happens in a work of fiction not railroading, please?. I swear, the funny things you guys choose to argue out in all-due-seriousness!. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    That is true, but, for me at least, it's also trying to figure out how Erfworld works. There is an absolute Fate, but it doesn't apply to everything. It also seems to be, on occasion, very proactive to be fulfilled. I guess it is about expectations. By examining how Fate has affected the narrative to this point, we gain a better understanding as to how it will influence the story in the future. Another way to put it is that Fate is almost like a character itself, so we are discussing the character and the role they play.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 114
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:40 am 
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    Mrtyuh wrote:
    Another way to put it is that Fate is almost like a character itself, so we are discussing the character and the role they play.
    Either Fate is a character or Fate isn't a character. I don't think it's possible to be almost like a character. I know some people believe that Fate is a character who makes plans and controls things from behind the scenes. Predictamancers have talked about Fate like it were a person often enough, but I don't believe it. I think that when Erfworlders talk about Fate like it's a person they are just speaking figuratively. I expect that the truth about Fate is more complicated, tied up in the many details of Predictamancy that haven't been revealed to us. I expect that Predictamancy has about as many secrets and subtleties as Thinkamancy has been shown to have and that's where all the answers lie, not with Fate being a person.

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