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 Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:50 pm 
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0beron wrote:
I have to believe that if they knew Jillian was alive and FAQ re-founded, they would have shown themselves, or would be working with Marie.
I expect that they are dead, but if they were alive they probably wouldn't want any part of the new Faq. Faq under Jillian is not Faq at all. Despite being the heir to the original Faq, Jillian is no replacement for Banhammer.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:01 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    I have to believe that if they knew Jillian was alive and FAQ re-founded, they would have shown themselves, or would be working with Marie.
    I expect that they are dead, but if they were alive they probably wouldn't want any part of the new Faq. Faq under Jillian is not Faq at all. Despite being the heir to the original Faq, Jillian is no replacement for Banhammer.

    I have to agree. It was specifically mentioned that Marie was safe in MK, while Wanda and Jack were captured, with no mention of the passel of other casters. That would seem to indicate that they died, especially as Marie 'just happening' to be in MK at the time of the attack was mentioned as being kind of suspect. I do have to admit though that it is somewhat odd that none of them managed to escape to the portal during the attack. Still though, Marie doesn't seem to have shown any signs of returning to FAQ. And honestly, there is a reasonable chance she wouldn't want her anyway, since she seems to view Predictamancers in a somewhat poor light.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:16 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    I have to agree. It was specifically mentioned that Marie was safe in MK, while Wanda and Jack were captured, with no mention of the passel of other casters. That would seem to indicate that they died, especially as Marie 'just happening' to be in MK at the time of the attack was mentioned as being kind of suspect. I do have to admit though that it is somewhat odd that none of them managed to escape to the portal during the attack. Still though, Marie doesn't seem to have shown any signs of returning to FAQ. And honestly, there is a reasonable chance she wouldn't want her anyway, since she seems to view Predictamancers in a somewhat poor light.

    The other casters are mentioned here from Stanley's point of view, but it is not very helpful in resolving the ambiguity:

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    Plus...their Foolamancer wasn't even in the capital. Wanda arranged that, too. We captured him when we razed their other two cities. Pretty neat package, right?

    "Rest of their casters I guess croaked or got away to the Magic Kingdom. But hey we got two of the best ones out of it."

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:30 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    My apologies, I meant where the court [of Old FAQ] was in Book 2, not Book 0.
    Oooooooh! Well, supposedly they were assumed to be croaked in Stanley's attack. And I am inclined to believe it. For 1 many of them are casters of very combat-useful schools: Orwell, Betsy, and Rusty come to mind in particular. And secondly, I have to believe that if they knew Jillian was alive and FAQ re-founded, they would have shown themselves, or would be working with Marie.


    Well.. that is the assumption but I would guess their fate was left purposefully vague so they could be worked back in. I imagine they are in some secret enclave waiting for a prediction from Marie to come to pass.

    Also, hopefully there is some retconning of this update so that Jillian forgets about this encounter as this little trial is how Charlie 'knew about FAQ at all."
    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE041_LaurelB.jpg

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:36 am 
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    joosy wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    My apologies, I meant where the court [of Old FAQ] was in Book 2, not Book 0.
    Oooooooh! Well, supposedly they were assumed to be croaked in Stanley's attack. And I am inclined to believe it. For 1 many of them are casters of very combat-useful schools: Orwell, Betsy, and Rusty come to mind in particular. And secondly, I have to believe that if they knew Jillian was alive and FAQ re-founded, they would have shown themselves, or would be working with Marie.


    Well.. that is the assumption but I would guess their fate was left purposefully vague so they could be worked back in. I imagine they are in some secret enclave waiting for a prediction from Marie to come to pass.

    Also, hopefully there is some retconning of this update so that Jillian forgets about this encounter as this little trial is how Charlie 'knew about FAQ at all."
    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE041_LaurelB.jpg

    Could just have meant the re-founding of Faq.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:40 am 
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    Not the best cliff hanger, we know she won't be erased.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:22 am 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Not the best cliff hanger, we know she won't be erased.

    True but the lingering question is "why not?"
    Its not about the destination, but the journey.
    Really we know form the start that Faq turns out fine, but never could we have expected half of the twists and turns it would take to get there.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:42 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Not the best cliff hanger, we know she won't be erased.

    True but the lingering question is "why not?"
    Its not about the destination, but the journey.
    Really we know form the start that Faq turns out fine, but never could we have expected half of the twists and turns it would take to get there.


    Exactly. Whether or not Jillian will be erased isn't the only thing that makes this part of the story interesting, by any means. And we may not know everything we think we know. Maybe she WILL be disbanded temporarily, but able to return somehow without croaking for good. Things may not be as cut and dry as we expect.

    Just knowing that Banhammer TRIED to disband Jillian is interesting. Also, even though readers have heard about disbanding, they've never seen it attempted before. Which could give a lot of insight into how it works/doesn't work, or why it would work/not work.

    Also, we're learning more about Charlie's history and nature, and relationship with Olive, which I'm enjoying.

    And the fact that we know Jillian won't be disbanded is also intriguing. Why not (as previously asked)? What makes her so special and different? How could that affect the story later on?

    Finally, what happens to Faq and Haffaton when Olive is croaked? That may not be as clean and simple as we expect either.

    Lots of good stuff here.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:16 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    I like the gwiffon theory. It makes for a clever cliffhanger.

    The alternatives are that
    1) A ruler can fail to disband a unit sometimes.
    2) Banhammer has some super-clever plan involving misdirecting people to think he disbanded jillian when really he didn't
    3) ...I suppose one alternative is that he just yells DISBAND without actually disbanding Jillian, like an outburst of anger where he stops himself before he actually hurts someone. His heart wasn't in it.

    Dunno. At this point I wouldn't expect Banhammer to be super-clever, and I wouldn't expect some weird rules thing with disbanding to become relevant.


    Here's a couple more alternatives:

    - Charlies didn't like the fact that Olive wasn't willing to give him the garden and has a way to mess with King Banhammer's disbanding so that Jillian can proceed to kill Olive.
    - Fate magic intervenes. Fate magic can be very powerful indeed. Remember the bonuses it's given Wanda all along, and how it intervened when Parson was thinking about casting Charlie's scroll. First it interfered with his ability to know that he had the ability to cast the scroll. Then when he discovered he could do it anyway, it knocked him cold.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:42 am 
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    Quote:
    “You will not execute this prisoner! We are civilized! Let. Her. Go!”

    Jillian flinched with the effort of refusing the order again, but felt herself slipping into a cold pool of certainty. “I will execute her, before I let her negotiate with Charlie.”

    Banhammer’s eyes flashed. He bared his teeth and raised his palms.

    “You are disbanded!” he snarled, and clapped his hands.


    Guys seriously...How does Banhammer disbanding the gwiffon even make sense after reading this part? It is an obvious nerdragedisband. Banhammer was angry, told Jillian to let her go, Jillian refused, then his eyes flashed and bared his teeth.

    Why the boop would he be so raging if he was merely disbanding a unit? Also, it wouldn't solve anything either. If it would, he could have disbanded the mount before that dialogue.

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    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:17 am 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Why the boop would he be so raging if he was merely disbanding a unit? Also, it wouldn't solve anything either.
    Don't underestimate the importance of a unit. Jillian is a unit. Banhammer himself is a unit. He's angry because Jillian is subverting the cause of justice and derailing the trial by killing the defendant. He's disbanding the gwiffon because the gwiffon is what is preventing Olive from breathing. Obviously he's still going to have a problem with Jillian after the gwiffon is gone, but his first priority is not having Olive dead. He probably plans to disband Jillian next if he needs to.

    If I didn't know for a fact that Jillian survives this I would call it crazy to suggest that Banhammer is disbanding the gwiffon, but since we know that Jillian survives both from Prediction and from Book 1, disbanding the gwiffon seems to be the only believable possibility.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:21 am 
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    I think it´s pretty clear that a ruler can disband units at will. Remember Don King *not disbanding* Caesar only to preserve the Duty of the other Warlords.

    Banhammer does not have a plan. Banhammer has not had any plan ever. Banhammer is a truly and real idiot who is, literally, living at the expenses of the daughter he despises.

    So... Yes, I think he is disbanding the gwiffon, only because we know that Jillian will be alive to inhereit FAQ and become a barbarian when Stanley attacks.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:42 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    zilfallon wrote:
    Why the boop would he be so raging if he was merely disbanding a unit? Also, it wouldn't solve anything either.
    Don't underestimate the importance of a unit. Jillian is a unit. Banhammer himself is a unit. He's angry because Jillian is subverting the cause of justice and derailing the trial by killing the defendant. He's disbanding the gwiffon because the gwiffon is what is preventing Olive from breathing. Obviously he's still going to have a problem with Jillian after the gwiffon is gone, but his first priority is not having Olive dead. He probably plans to disband Jillian next if he needs to.

    If I didn't know for a fact that Jillian survives this I would call it crazy to suggest that Banhammer is disbanding the gwiffon, but since we know that Jillian survives both from Prediction and from Book 1, disbanding the gwiffon seems to be the only believable possibility.


    Still, an argument which says "Disbanding must have failed because what Jillian is trying to do is better for faq or because fate is protecting Jillian" makes more sense for me than "He disbanded the gwiffon because we know jillian survives"

    I mean...i don't know, that scene just becomes some lame scene if disbanding target is indeed the gwiffon. Oh well, we'll see.

    I bet 10q on Banhammer attempting to disband Jillian and failing to do so.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:29 am 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Actually, Gillian's an heir right? Well maybe rulers simply can't disband heirs on a whim? Banhammer's never really seemed that bright and there could easily be loopholes he's never heard of.


    We know that there is some mechanism through which heirs can attempt to rebel and take over their side, Don King's son did. What we don't know is what that mechanism looks like, it could include some kind of protection against disbandment.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:33 am 
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    Quite. We already know there is a disband resistance mechanism if that has a chance to work.

    Alternately... disbanding is not instantaneous, and takes effect when you would next require upkeep? This is simply his expressing the extent of his displeasure, and a direct threat. I don't like this theory much, but it kind of works.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:38 am 
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    Just to re-iterate my speculation that Disbanding isn't something you resist or disobey. It's not a spell, and it's not an Order. It's a decision that a Ruler makes, and it takes effect the moment the Ruler means it. "You are Disbanded!" rather than "Disband!"

    I'd bet quatloos on it, but I don't know how to get started with that. How many quatloos does one have when one has never played that before? I'd be willing to start playing, based on this speculation.

    That he's disbanding the gwiffon would be a cheaper, corollary bet I'd make.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:50 am 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Guys seriously...How does Banhammer disbanding the gwiffon even make sense after reading this part? It is an obvious nerdragedisband. Banhammer was angry, told Jillian to let her go, Jillian refused, then his eyes flashed and bared his teeth.

    Why the boop would he be so raging if he was merely disbanding a unit? Also, it wouldn't solve anything either. If it would, he could have disbanded the mount before that dialogue.

    Banhammer is as close to a pacifist ruler as we have seen; it takes him getting this angry to do anything violent at all. However, it is not plausible that he would disband his daughter, even over a disobeyed order. Remember, when an overwhelmingly larger side easily crushed his little kingdom, he personally went to rescue her (from this same overwhelming force) instead of running away. He told Jillian to let Olive go. Jillian refused so he demonstrated to her that he can make her let Olive go and he's willing to sacrifice a unit to do that.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:31 am 
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    Amado wrote:
    Just to re-iterate my speculation that Disbanding isn't something you resist or disobey. It's not a spell, and it's not an Order. It's a decision that a Ruler makes, and it takes effect the moment the Ruler means it. "You are Disbanded!" rather than "Disband!"

    I'd bet quatloos on it, but I don't know how to get started with that. How many quatloos does one have when one has never played that before? I'd be willing to start playing, based on this speculation.

    That he's disbanding the gwiffon would be a cheaper, corollary bet I'd make.

    You start with 0 quatloos but you can go up to 100 into debt. You gain 10 per realtime month after your first bet.

    A couple of people(including me) already bet some quatloos on whether disband failed or target was gwiffon.

    More info: http://www.erfworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2815

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:56 am 
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    Whatever his target was for disbandment, it's horrible that he would disband any unit of his side at all, especially as an action against his own Heir! And in a fit of rage, too... amazing. This makes Loj a bad Ruler in my book.


    Also, if he really was trying to disband Jill, my own theory is currently based on the fact that an extremely powerful Carnymancer with an Arkentool at his disposal is currently watching the scene. Suppose he were to step in to block the order? Can Carnymagic do that?

    Also, Also, I don't remember there being a terrible secret that Charlie is trying to protect, or his poisoning, but if both of those things are real, then I can also bet that the secret is that he's Rigged the Game on himself, like Ginger McBurnsalot, and is actually in a constant state of dying/deflecting his Fate unto others. OOH! What if his carney/arkendish-fueled resistance to poison is poisoning the Erfworld?

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:56 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    You start with 0 quatloos but you can go up to 100 into debt. You gain 10 per realtime month after your first bet.


    you gain more debt limit.

    Back on topic: Banhammer sure didn't make any attempt to constrain communication between the witness and the accused - that's a basic concern in the courtroom. Of course, this is the first time, so I can see why he wouldn't have ironed the wrinkles out yet. But you can bet that this test case will get him to rewrite and expand on the idea...

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