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 Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:20 am 
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Whispri wrote:
It could be he's going for the mount, but how would that save Olive from Gillian? It shows where she gets her evil from in anycase, he's either trying to execute his own daughter of performing a mock execution on of her, either way...


Disbanding the gwiffon would remove the immediate threat of suffocation, and upend the situation (for one thing, Jillian would presumably take a moment to get back on her feet before she could try to execute Olive herself) long enough for something else to happen.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:22 am 
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    Anyone who seriously thinks he just disbanded the gwiffon, I'm offering 10q to each of you, even odds.

    And whispri, if you seriously think Banhammer will die in El-Efbaum, well, I'm willing to give very favorable odds against that. How about my 50q to your 5q?

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:41 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Anyone who seriously thinks he just disbanded the gwiffon, I'm offering 10q to each of you, even odds.

    And whispri, if you seriously think Banhammer will die in El-Efbaum, well, I'm willing to give very favorable odds against that. How about my 50q to your 5q?


    Ok I've heard about these mysterious quantaloons but know nothing of them. Can someone fill me in? And whispri...don't take that bet man...

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:54 am 
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    Wow was he not warned that Jillian had a fate? This is going to cost FAQ heavily in the long run have we not heard in stated that screwing fate is not advised.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:01 am 
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    It's like Banhammer is obsessed with losing.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:13 am 
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    Or Jillian actually disbands. Then wakes up in a field as a barbarian on the next turn. Popped with memories of her former life as a Banhammer, despite her new name being Zamussels. Still flagged as an heir.

    But then that doesn't explain memories (tampered or not) of Jack and Wanda in Faq waiting for Jillian. Unless she was indeed a barbarian and hired by Faq to serve as a mercenary. There is a huge chunk of story that does not neatly fit into the start of Book 1.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:27 am 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    There is a huge chunk of story that does not neatly fit into the start of Book 1.

    It can still fit into book 1. They finish up here and retreat to the original FAQ site and reestablish it and return to their old ways. Wanda is then in FAQ and everything is aligned for Stanley to show up.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:40 am 
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    fehler wrote:
    A misdirect. He disbanded the gwiffon, nothing more.

    This was my first instinct. Glad I wasn't the only one who saw it. How accurate this actually is, I don't know.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:41 am 
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    Well its certainly possible for the king to be disbanding the Gwiffon but I'm thinking there might be something else going on.

    Spoiler: show
    IMO I certainly think the king is attempting to disband jillian. Infact I believe its possible that as a result of which, she will muster the duty needed to refuse the order (a critical hit on the dice roll of duty if you will) and possibly as a result will likely go barbarian as well. We know Jillian is fated to kill the Overlord, but there's nothing saying she must be part of Faq when she does it.

    So all that said, I'm going to be playing the long odds on this one. My vote is she was ordered to disband, she refuses the order and goes barbarian (because you can't outright deny the highest order to disband without changing sides). She would then execute Olive before anyone has a chance to stop her this time (free will in all). Then submits to the Faq Court for trial as a prisoner. I doubt charlie would interfere, as all his goals would be accomplished by olive croaking (after all he doesn't want her giving any further information), so the likelihood of him crashing the party instead of looting what he can from the ruined cities of haffaton is less than likely. Furthermore it de-facto solves his "Territorial Dispute" without giving away his location.

    This also sheds light on why he would be willing to work with jillian in the future and even support her side reforming, until she grew a brain and learned to play the game. She was a known quantity, a war starter and fighter and not the peace loving person her father was. Perpetual War is charlies goal and thats why parson poses such a big problem because he just may put an end to that if he's allowed to stretch his muscles. So in effect she may be about to murder his daughter but I'd wager information security is worth a lot more to charlie than his daughter living to control one of the largest sides.

    As for Jillians trial, it would be without a doubt a close one but the facts are they need her as otherwise they are without any real defence, and in all likelihood they'll need he to continue doing mercenary work to help pay for the sides upkeep while they re-establish. She will be on a short leash for the rest of her life but in the end I know the trial would be about self defense. Beyond that the king would have to answer for a worse crime than jillian, attempting to disband his child, something I doubt he would ever get past.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:14 pm 
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    Keldaria wrote:
    Well its certainly possible for the king to be disbanding the Gwiffon but I'm thinking there might be something else going on.



    I agree with that.

    And I think it is very clear that Charlie is pushing Jillian´s buttons. Charlie does want Olive killed.

    By the way... Do we know if Olive´s status as a prisoner forbids her of contacting directly with Charlie via natural Thinkamancy?

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:26 pm 
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    WarFAN wrote:
    Do we know if Olive´s status as a prisoner forbids her of contacting directly with Charlie via natural Thinkamancy?

    That's a good point, but I think when someone is in a call it's obvious, at the very least they close their eyes and ignore the world around them.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:27 pm 
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    With regards to the Gwiffon suggestion, couldn't Banhammer just order the thing to fly away? That would be worth trying if he wanted to avoid murder done. Attempted filicide really does seem to be far more likely.

    SteveMB wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    It could be he's going for the mount, but how would that save Olive from Gillian? It shows where she gets her evil from in anycase, he's either trying to execute his own daughter of performing a mock execution on of her, either way...


    Disbanding the gwiffon would remove the immediate threat of suffocation, and upend the situation (for one thing, Jillian would presumably take a moment to get back on her feet before she could try to execute Olive herself) long enough for something else to happen.

    That wouldn't stop Gillian from gutting the woman. Possibly before she had time to breath.

    Mikalyaran wrote:
    Ok I've heard about these mysterious quantaloons but know nothing of them. Can someone fill me in? And whispri...don't take that bet man...

    Basically, quatloo are a unit of currency used for gambling in Star Trek worth seven and a half sestertii each. We know this as a pair of invincible gauls were sold for ten thousand sestertii in Asterix the Gladiator, while three Starfleet officers were sold for two thousand quatloo in The Gamesters of Triskelion. We have a thread here for gambling quatloo on Erfworld related predictamancy.

    And I wasn't planning to, but thanks for the advice.

    drachefly wrote:
    And whispri, if you seriously think Banhammer will die in El-Efbaum, well, I'm willing to give very favorable odds against that. How about my 50q to your 5q?

    It is a possibility worth considering. As for the bet, even if I were certain it was the case and even if I had an interest in making bets in speculation threads, I have more than enough outstanding bets at the moment as it is, ninety plus or thereabouts. I really do want to wait for some of them to be resolved before making further bets.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:35 pm 
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    I think the real question here is what is Charlie's secret? He has some secret that he's willing to go to almost any lengths to hide. He implied that it was his reason for his actions in Book 2, and it seems to be driving his actions now. He's willing to start wars, kill countless people, and spend nearly any amount of money to hide this secret. The mere suggestion that it might get revealed here was enough to throw him off balance for the first time in the story. Nothing we've seen so far remotely seems that important -- sure, there's a bit about his backstory, but nothing earth-shattering.

    What secret could he have that would hurt him that badly if it were exposed?

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:46 pm 
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    Aquillion wrote:
    I think the real question here is what is Charlie's secret?
    What secret could he have that would hurt him that badly if it were exposed?


    It's probably the terrible price he paid for his life after Olive tried to poison him. It might even hold the key to how he can be defeated.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:50 pm 
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    fehler wrote:
    A misdirect. He disbanded the gwiffon, nothing more.


    Hah! And here I was considering the metaphysical ramifications of Fate directly intervening to prevent a ruler from disbanding a truculent (but factually correct) unit, when the answer was so much simpler. Disbanding the gwyffon reduces the immediate threat to Olive while forcefully reminding Jillian of her proper place.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:56 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    With regards to the Gwiffon suggestion, couldn't Banhammer just order the thing to fly away? That would be worth trying if he wanted to avoid murder done. Attempted filicide really does seem to be far more likely.

    SteveMB wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    It could be he's going for the mount, but how would that save Olive from Gillian? It shows where she gets her evil from in anycase, he's either trying to execute his own daughter of performing a mock execution on of her, either way...


    Disbanding the gwiffon would remove the immediate threat of suffocation, and upend the situation (for one thing, Jillian would presumably take a moment to get back on her feet before she could try to execute Olive herself) long enough for something else to happen.

    That wouldn't stop Gillian from gutting the woman. Possibly before she had time to breath.

    Mikalyaran wrote:
    Ok I've heard about these mysterious quantaloons but know nothing of them. Can someone fill me in? And whispri...don't take that bet man...

    Basically, quatloo are a unit of currency used for gambling in Star Trek worth seven and a half sestertii each. We know this as a pair of invincible gauls were sold for ten thousand sestertii in Asterix the Gladiator, while three Starfleet officers were sold for two thousand quatloo in The Gamesters of Triskelion. We have a thread here for gambling quatloo on Erfworld related predictamancy.

    And I wasn't planning to, but thanks for the advice.

    drachefly wrote:
    And whispri, if you seriously think Banhammer will die in El-Efbaum, well, I'm willing to give very favorable odds against that. How about my 50q to your 5q?

    It is a possibility worth considering. As for the bet, even if I were certain it was the case and even if I had an interest in making bets in speculation threads, I have more than enough outstanding bets at the moment as it is, ninety plus or thereabouts. I really do want to wait for some of them to be resolved before making further bets.


    Units can disregard orders if they can convince themselves enough that the orders are not for the good of the side -- that lets Duty kick in. Given that the gwiffon is Jillian's mount, it's probably going to obey her orders above Loj's because they count as one unit, so Loj ordering it to move is futile.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:59 pm 
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    The misdirection idea is clever. makes sense too as someone who is so opposed to doing violence would probably be hard pressed to disband someone. disbanding the griffon would be a great deal easier for him to cope with.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:23 pm 
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    Im pretty sure that "Charlie wants endless war" is just a forum speculation, it has not been confirmed in comic, and only recently hinted at. The only thing we've heard in-comic (from Olive) is that Charlie is no longer interested in Peace on Erf.

    I think Banhammer is disbanding Jillian, and she will go mercenary instantly, as someone already mentioned. This means that even disbanding is something that each unit decides to accept, based on the strength of their beliefs. (or Duty, whatever) The implications of this would be pretty serious. It would mean that a large percentage of Erf's rules are faith-based, with standards and rules being maintained by the uncontaminated belief of the individual units. It doesn't explain turns, stats, or hex boundaries, but it would mean that contaminating factors like Parson could ruin the entire world, as I've mentioned before. I'm reminded of the Star Trek episode where losers of a virtual war line up to enter a suicide box, right next to each other.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:30 pm 
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    On re-read, I think the disband order is in fact for the gwiffon.

    Masterfully done, though, to load enough hints in the prose that it really could go either way: my first assumption was that Banhammer was mad enough to disband, disown, disappear his own daughter. (The cold bastard.) On re-read, it's also clear that he has an immediate concern for the fact that Olive is suffocating, is actively under attack.

    Speculation: he cares enough about his daughter, or at least about his lofty ideals, that he will want to deal with her insubordination in some more equanimous manner. He wants The Defendant freed NOW, because the attack affronts him.

    That's my bet. No fancy stuff about Fate or Duty preventing a Ruler from Disbanding any unit they please. I find it more difficult to believe that Erfworld works like that; Disbanding isn't an Order to be disobeyed, it's an action the Ruler takes, not to be denied. That's what I think right now.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:23 pm 
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    Alternative possible motivation for Banhammer:

    Charlie is clearly interested in Olive. So interested that he basically just openly switched conversation and offered to obliterate Faq given her word (to rescue her or just to ensure there are no witnesses left standing makes little difference). Extreme professional discourtesy, impulsive, directly against his commercial interest.

    Jillian has seen this... but Banhammer is hardly going to have missed it (it was right in front of the whole room!). Everyone is thinking what Jillian is thinking, and she's the last rather than the first to realise it - in this case, perhaps Banhammer has already got to the next step and considered that if Charlie is willing to throw away his professional facade and crush them like bugs at the mere mention of a live, talking, functioning-hostage Olive, threatening to kill her is less likely to slow Charlie down than it is to seal all of their dooms, either because he has feelings and they are hurt, or because he doesn't and Faq are now a liability.

    So Banhammer needs to put on an act, reinforce the sanctity of the trial, and save everyone's asses by demonstrating to Charlie that there is definitely no immediate need to get involved.


    ...Hey, it's possible.

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