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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
I'm fond of the insta-pop idea for the moneymancer, though we've seen nothing to support it.

No proof Moneymancers themselves can do it, but we have seen something similar. Natural allies can do exactly that via natural Moneymancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:17 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    2. You think Janice is on his side. If he goes all aggro on mancers, how sure are you that she won't act against him? As per your general argument, we have no evidence that she won't.
    Actually we do. There's that prediction that Janice will be fighting for him.

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    3. So? We also don't know that there's not.
    Turnmastery doesn't work well (if at all) on the decrypted, even if they had a turn-mage and if she had uber-link backing, they couldn't end GK's turn since it's not their turn.

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Why couldn't carnymancers have an equivalent mass stop/redirect/trick/stun/stats change/etc spell??
    Because Jo-Jo didn't like the odds of him and his entire crew taking on a warlord, and because con men aren't normally combat machines.

    Much worse, we've seen nothing to suggest any of the current casters are stacked, but we can probably assume Parson's entire crew is.

    This would be a real good time for Jo-Jo to start running, maybe through the closest gate.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:47 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    No proof Moneymancers themselves can do it, but we have seen something similar. Natural allies can do exactly that via natural Moneymancy.


    Yes, but they need to have at least one natural ally unit before making another one. That means only sides could do it, and even assuming one could pop a natural ally into a hex where there aren't any, it would open a similar problem. Non-caster units in the MK are the issue here, that would just bring more of them and open even more of a precedent. They need to reach some sort of magically enforced agreement with Parson.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:51 pm 
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    Dark Matter wrote:
    Turnmastery doesn't work well (if at all) on the decrypted, even if they had a turn-mage and if she had uber-link backing, they couldn't end GK's turn since it's not their turn.
    Turnamancy does more than just cause units to turn. Turnamancy is the magic of pure movement, and the only discipline that can be used to create vehicles that move themselves (as of Book 0, Episode 44). Assuming there are parallels between Turnamancy and Dirtamancy, I expect Turnamancy is the Dirtamancy of movement and getting units to change sides is only the tip of the iceberg. I wouldn't be surprised if in combat Turnamancers can slow units down and speed units up at will.

    I've got a strong suspicion that Janis's "time out" was a bit of Turnamancy that she knows and not Hippiemancy at all. I doubt one gets to be a Grand Abbie without being many turns old and knowing a lot of magic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:40 am 
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    Dark Matter wrote:
    Actually we do. There's that prediction that Janice will be fighting for him.


    Fighting for him at some unknown point in time, as I recall. Not specifically this turn/next turn.

    Dark Matter wrote:
    Turnmastery doesn't work well (if at all) on the decrypted, even if they had a turn-mage and if she had uber-link backing, they couldn't end GK's turn since it's not their turn.


    There's lots of other potential options/spell capabilities.

    Dark Matter wrote:
    Because Jo-Jo didn't like the odds of him and his entire crew taking on a warlord, and because con men aren't normally combat machines.

    Much worse, we've seen nothing to suggest any of the current casters are stacked, but we can probably assume Parson's entire crew is.


    Taking on a warlord, or taking on a warlord and unknown numbers of other casters that might act against them/with Parson against them? As I recall, it's the latter.

    I don't see how it matters at all whether the casters are stacked, in the context of spell casting. Casters don't need to be stacked to cast spells, and i can't imagine that being stacked or not would make any difference if they were in hand to hand with infantry.

    My whole argument consists in the time before hand to hand happens. Casters have been shown over and over to have game changing, mass effect spells.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:11 am 
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    Jinren wrote:
    Anyway the talk of an "enforcement council" indicates that there probably isn't any fixed structure outside of the ones people willingly subscribe to. Although Jojo's description of the pyramid as "illegal" is interesting. Did he invent that on the spot or did Erflings actually think of /try a whole bunch of these tactics in the past?
    I call BS on a structure around your own portal being somehow "illegal." It harms no one else, and only serves to cut your own casters off from the rest of the MK. I think this is just an example of carnymancers being slick talkers who can convince people to do things that aren't necessarily in their own best interests, like pay to play another carnival game which is heavily weighted towards the booth operator.

    Joe Dirt just up and acted, after all. That's not much of a "council", is it?

    0beron wrote:
    Think of all the ways casters can render a unit ineffective. Predictamancers see the future and never miss, [...]
    Not quite. Predictamancers can see the future, and that allows them to await the best time to attack. But the wait also allows the opposing forces time to act, and it's also possible that the future never contains the chance of a hit, such as when Delphie saw no future in which the single tower spell would hit Olive. If Jillian hadn't considered striking the broom Olive would have flown away untouched.

    0beron wrote:
    Zeku wrote:
    Casters do not have meaningful combat stats, and the MK has no normal troops at all. Parson is smart enough to prioritize attacks against anything that can summon a combat unit.

    Then I dispute your idea of "meaningful". Maybe their "I hit you with a sword" Combat score sucks, but that alone does nothing to indicate how useful they are in a fight.
    I agree with Zeroberon. This isn't D&D and we shouldn't be comparing casters in Erfworld to casters in D&D (although depending on how much you allow your D&D casters to wreck the game by combining their various splat book abilities, it may be a valid comparison). Ace was pretty buff, after all, and the carnies didn't seem to have any reluctance to start throwing punches and mixing it up. Their weaknesses in this situation may primarily be psychological, the sheer shock at seeing so many troopers in the MK, a thing which has never happened before, their relative disorganization when compared to any sides units, and the fact that regardless of whether they retain their casting ability when decrypted, every one of them which falls rises to fight for Parson and company. Oh, and a sword never runs out of ammo, but a caster does run out of juice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:12 am 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    My bet is that Parson plans on decrypting a good amount of casters and then leading them through Charlie's portal and doing a capitol strike there. Whether that plan is successful or not will remain to be seen.

    If it was a success, then they've basically won and there isn't alot for book 3 to cover except how GK steamrolls the rest of Erfworld with a hundred casters and million troops.


    Not really. Book 3 could just be the series "bottle" episode wih Parson and Charlie engaged in some intense battle simulations or nothing but snarky eyebook conversations (saves on artists!)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:25 am 
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    teratorn wrote:
    dirocyn wrote:
    Does Janis have the juice, or the willingness, to stop them again? Are there other hippiemancers here?


    Janis pacified a small group, but she says it's not for long, so I assume it takes considerable juice to stop someone permanently.

    We've seen Olive, a level 12, stop an entire hex but she had an artifact. But even assuming they could pull that one, is it an hex effect or does it only target units present there at the time? What if Parson simply converts more croaked into decrypted after the spell is done?


    She had a magic item not an artifact.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:32 am 
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    Ohberon wrote:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    Think of all the ways casters can render a unit ineffective. Predictamancers see the future and never miss, [...]
    Not quite. Predictamancers can see the future, and that allows them to await the best time to attack. But the wait also allows the opposing forces time to act, and it's also possible that the future never contains the chance of a hit, such as when [Marie] saw no future in which the single tower spell would hit Olive. If Jillian hadn't considered striking the broom Olive would have flown away untouched.

    Fixed the caster for you, but yeah that's actually a good point. Given that Delphi had no trouble finding targets in her fight, I can only assume this "impossible to hit" scenario arises with heavily Fated units such as Olive & Jillian involved. But you have a very valid point about the slower attack rate so to speak.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:40 am 
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    For those who say Casters have low combat stats, Wanda previously engaged in melee combat with Ansom and not only didn't instantly die, but was able to trap his weapons. This shows that casters are not necessarily bad in combat.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:34 am 
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    Dark Matter wrote:
    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    2. You think Janice is on his side. If he goes all aggro on mancers, how sure are you that she won't act against him? As per your general argument, we have no evidence that she won't.
    Actually we do. There's that prediction that Janice will be fighting for him.

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    3. So? We also don't know that there's not.
    Turnmastery doesn't work well (if at all) on the decrypted, even if they had a turn-mage and if she had uber-link backing, they couldn't end GK's turn since it's not their turn.

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Why couldn't carnymancers have an equivalent mass stop/redirect/trick/stun/stats change/etc spell??
    Because Jo-Jo didn't like the odds of him and his entire crew taking on a warlord, and because con men aren't normally combat machines.

    Much worse, we've seen nothing to suggest any of the current casters are stacked, but we can probably assume Parson's entire crew is.

    This would be a real good time for Jo-Jo to start running, maybe through the closest gate.

    On the subject of turnamancy and decrypted, we don't know it doesn't work well on decrypted. We know that a turnamancer that just spent nearly 2 turns worth of juice in linked spell can't turn a decrypted unit at range. That's a big difference.


    Someone else brought up that Delphie was in a never miss scenario, whereas Marie didn't have a shot to take. Keep in mind that Delphi was buffed up like mad by Clay the Luckamancer at the time. Luckamancy gives her the shot, predictamancy makes sure she make it.

    On the subject of moneymancers in combat, I'm excited to see a "make it rain!" spell. A spray of coins shot into your face would hurt like hell. Or, maybe a moneymancer could increase a unit's required upkeep, causing them to have not eaten enough, and be crippled by hunger.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:21 am 
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    YRM_DM wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    something I didn't say, about book 1 and Charlie getting the required number of archons


    YRM_DM wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    something I didn't say about not 100% certain archons can't enter the MK


    Please stop that. It's annoying.

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    I can't imagine a moneymancer performing well in ANY kind of combat situation.

    Someone clearly hasn't been playing Final Fantasy 5! (< best said like in Yu-Gi-Oh abridged when whatshisface tells Mako that he hasn't been reading the Expanded Universe) (The GP Toss ability can be overwhelmingly powerful. It can be strong in its appearances in other games too, but I don't know so much about that)


    Last edited by drachefly on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:25 am 
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    Moneymancers might be able to drop a million gold coins on top of an opponent, then harvest those coins back up. The idea came from twisting a genie wish of "I want a million gold coins" and the recipient gets all of them, all at once, and is crushed by the weight.

    Or they could flood the area with gold, then dive into it Scrooge McDuck style. Moneymancers could swim through the coins like water, picking apart enemies like a shark.

    Or money golems! Animate a pile of gold coins to stack up into a humanoid shape.

    Roll a giant coin through the enemy ranks.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:20 pm 
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    Or the old fashioned punch while holding a roll of quarters.

    Or turn a unit into gold.

    Or shout "make it rain!" and shoot razor smuckers at them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:44 pm 
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    Yogi wrote:
    For those who say Casters have low combat stats, Wanda previously engaged in melee combat with Ansom and not only didn't instantly die, but was able to trap his weapons. This shows that casters are not necessarily bad in combat.

    Ace Hardware probably would have been a better example than Wanda, the omni-caster who served most of the first turns of her existence as her Side's Chief Warlord. She's pretty much the definition of an atypical unit. If we hadn't been explicitly told that she popped on Erf, she'd be suspect as another Stupidworld import.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:11 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    I can't imagine a moneymancer performing well in ANY kind of combat situation.

    Someone clearly hasn't been playing Final Fantasy 5! (< best said like in Yu-Gi-Oh abridged when whatshisface tells Mako that he hasn't been reading the Expanded Universe) (The GP Toss ability can be overwhelmingly powerful. It can be strong in its appearances in other games too, but I don't know so much about that)


    Final Fantasy X had the Bribe ability. Makes the enemy instantly leave combat, and they even hand you an item that couldn't be obtained trough steal/kill.

    There was also the Yojimbo Aeon. A greedy mercenary, wouldn't move a finger until you paid him during combat. But if you paid him well enough, he could insta-kill the enemy (even enemies immune to instant kills, including pretty much every boss).

    Advance Wars 2 and Dual Strike had Commanding Officer Collin, all about decreasing your troop costs while increasing your income. His ultimate ability? Boost all of your troops offense and defense based on the amount of money you had stored! Literally called "Power of Money".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:11 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter
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    Mikalyaran wrote:
    She had a magic item not an artifact.


    Actually, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated what the Chillaxe is, other than that she needs it for the hex-wide peace spell. It could be a magic-item, an artifact, or even just a non-magical guitar.


    Yogi wrote:
    For those who say Casters have low combat stats, Wanda previously engaged in melee combat with Ansom and not only didn't instantly die, but was able to trap his weapons. This shows that casters are not necessarily bad in combat.


    This is true. There exist conditions under which casters can succeed in combat. Note, however, that Wanda is an unusually powerful caster, of a discipline that is more combat-oriented than many others, with a great deal of combat experience, and she was leading a stack of powerful uncroaked while decked out in magic items. So we know that there exist conditions under which a caster can be powerful in melee, but the numerous extenuating circumstances mean that this doesn't tell us much about casters in general.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:47 pm 
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    I haven't read all the thread so maybe someone has already posted this.

    But from my point of view (assuming we are not being fooled by Decrypted Jack), what I see is Parson burnt a lot of bridges when using the MK to get through an enemy portal and conquer that city.
    He has a lot of unfinished business in the MK right now.
    First with Isaac, then with Janis and Marie and also with Jojo and the Carnies (curiously enough, most of those issues always end up being Charlie-related).
    So, what to do?
    He goes back to the MK to go handle all that unfinished business, and rebuild those bridges he burnt. But he will do that on his own terms and not the ones impossed by someone else.

    So all those troops are there, not to fight the MK, but to "guarantee" Parson can dictate his own terms in this matter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:19 pm 
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    Finwe wrote:
    Mikalyaran wrote:
    She had a magic item not an artifact.


    Actually, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated what the Chillaxe is, other than that she needs it for the hex-wide peace spell. It could be a magic-item, an artifact, or even just a non-magical guitar.


    Yogi wrote:
    For those who say Casters have low combat stats, Wanda previously engaged in melee combat with Ansom and not only didn't instantly die, but was able to trap his weapons. This shows that casters are not necessarily bad in combat.


    This is true. There exist conditions under which casters can succeed in combat. Note, however, that Wanda is an unusually powerful caster, of a discipline that is more combat-oriented than many others, with a great deal of combat experience, and she was leading a stack of powerful uncroaked while decked out in magic items. So we know that there exist conditions under which a caster can be powerful in melee, but the numerous extenuating circumstances mean that this doesn't tell us much about casters in general.

    Indeed, the Chillaxe has never been revealed as to its nature. I suspect that it is a magic item myself, most likely made by Olive herself, possibly while linked to another caster (turnamancer would seem appropriate. Maybe even with Charlie and a turnamancer to give a hippy/turn/carny link). It could however be an artifact (which is basically just a magic item that popped as opposed to being made)

    And as for Wanda 'engaging' Ansome in melee combat, no doubt being mounted on a flying unit helped alot, along with her magic items, and then there is the fact that she was fated to use the weapon that Ansome was trying to use against her. And as you said, Croakamancers are likely one of the more physical combat oriented caster types, since they need to be near battles and lead their uncroaked for them to be properly useful.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 113
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:27 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Or the old fashioned punch while holding a roll of quarters.

    Or turn a unit into gold.

    Or shout "make it rain!" and shoot razor smuckers at them.


    I imagine Benjamin would have been more about using Thumb Tax, Compound Fractures, and Loan Sharks.

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