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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:46 am 
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I'm assuming it's child's play for an attuned Carnymancer to remove shackles from a prisoner? I'm putting money on Jillian's reflexes.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:37 am 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    I don't remember which update it was. It was while Jillian was high on hero buds. While she was hallucinating, a fat jester yelled at her in her mind. Anyone else think that might have been Charlie?


    Good spot on that. Potentially, yes. I don't think there's enough one way or another to discount that possibility, at any rate.


    I like that we have gained more insight on why Charlscomm doesn't pop Warlords, too. It seemed like an odd limitation, since they give such a huge leadership bonus, but it seems like Charlie doesn't want any more kids.


    When Jack is in her mind he theorizes about the Jester being a part of her she needs. I'd favor this since he was in their and helped her find her way out of the foolmancy the hero buds had worked on her.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:23 am 
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    I wonder why Charlie opposes a united Erfworld... That would give more motive to him staying a mercenary that plays sides off against each other and generating conflict than JUST profit. As a carnymancer, if he wanted nothing to do with managing and expanding a side he could just move to the Magic Kingdom, but he's tenaciously running a side dedicated to maintaining a warring erfworld.

    That also begs the question, how is Parson such a threat to him? Yeah, hes an unpredictable warlord and undeniable king of the exploit; but what direct threat to charlies motives does he present? I know the summoning spell was created to find someone to oppose Charlie, but the idea of simply attacking and defeating Charlie can't be what has got him all worked up.

    This also makes me think that there's more to Charlie's 'secrets' than how he does business, the archons knew something else that Charlie was terrified of having disclosed.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:34 pm 
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    First of all, Brilliant update. I quite enjoyed the trial so far.

    This update in my mind is brilliant because it highlights the fact that there is 2 sides to every story. I have no doubt in my mind that Olive thinks she did everything for the greater good. Most monsters in history did things because they felt it was for the greater good. I don't think many people we classify as "Evil" truly see themselves as being Evil. She is also a high level hippiemancer, soo I can't wait to see how/if she is able to attempt to play on the juries emotions as the trial goes on.

    Now the fact that she was unwilling to turn doesn't surprise me nor anyone else I'm sure, however was I the only one surprised that after she refused to turn, on the grounds that it would cause hundreds of units to disband, that nobody requested that she instead end her sides turn in a sign of good faith? That would seem to be a natural progression of that motion. She wouldn't be able to refuse as easily and it would show just how willing she was to allow the court to truly pass judgement on her. I have no doubt that while the trial looks to be a toss up or even going in her favor that she wouldn't attack because she would want to attempt to salvage their prior arrangement to gain the casters of FaQ, but the second things go south on her I'd be willing to bet there is an attack force 1 hex out ready to strike. (does anyone know the rules on freeing captured units? will she become free if other units enter the hex and start combat or does it take them physically reaching her?)

    Also I loved the art. I think the look on Olive's face is perfect as she prepares to call "Daddy".. bonus points to the rob if in the next update Olive calls him "Daddy" in an attempt to extract sympathy from either her father or the jury.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:40 pm 
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    Keldaria wrote:
    the second things go south on her I'd be willing to bet there is an attack force 1 hex out ready to strike.

    I highly doubt this for a few reasons:
    • Wanda would likely know about it, since she clearly seems to know a lot about the side's military position, being a key part of it herself.
    • Any units within range have probably spent all their move already because of Olive's paranoid attempts to use Natural Predictamancy to her advantage earlier this turn.
    • This is the heart of Haffaton territory, and we already know they're weak here. It's only their perimeter that is strong.
    • What little interior defenses they have are 50% Wanda's, and since she clearly won't be helping anymore, there goes your reinforcements.
    This trial is definitely Olive's best...and LAST attempt to save herself.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:14 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Now we are being told that Parson is fated to croak Charlie.


    Sorry, did I miss this somewhere? I know this has been implied, but this statement sounds more categorical, so I'm wondering if I just missed it. Thanks.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:31 pm 
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    Keldaria: it's quite possible that as a prisoner, Olive has no power to end the turn.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:34 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Keldaria: it's quite possible that as a prisoner, Olive has no power to end the turn.

    Interesting point, definitely a valid and likely correct one, especially since we know the power to End Turn can also be wielded by the CWL. Somewhere out there Haffaton must have one. On that topic, I'm still amazed/intrigued that the side can continue with Olive as a Captive.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:38 pm 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Now we are being told that Parson is fated to croak Charlie.


    Sorry, did I miss this somewhere? I know this has been implied, but this statement sounds more categorical, so I'm wondering if I just missed it. Thanks.


    Quote:
    Isaac: "As I said, Chief Parson. You must defeat our mutual enemy, Charlie. It's why you were summoned. You're perhaps the only one who can, and he knows this."

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_85

    Quote:
    Parson: "Great. How many prophecies am I fulfilling?"

    Isaac: " Three. Well, four."

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_87

    So no, it hasn't been said he is fated to croak Charlie, but he is fated to defeat him.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:43 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Xarx wrote:
    Keldaria: it's quite possible that as a prisoner, Olive has no power to end the turn.

    Interesting point, definitely a valid and likely correct one, especially since we know the power to End Turn can also be wielded by the CWL. Somewhere out there Haffaton must have one. On that topic, I'm still amazed/intrigued that the side can continue with Olive as a Captive.

    Which really makes me wonder what happens to a side that has both its CWL and ruler captured. Does the ruler still have access to natural Thinkamancy? What can they do? Could you pressure a ruler into ordering all their units turn to your side? What happens if someone never ends their turn, is there some time limit after which it happens automatically?

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:52 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Which really makes me wonder what happens to a side that has both its CWL and ruler captured. Does the ruler still have access to natural Thinkamancy? What can they do? Could you pressure a ruler into ordering all their units turn to your side? What happens if someone never ends their turn, is there some time limit after which it happens automatically?

    Well given the fact that Jillian knew her Father wouldn't know if she croaked, and would eventually be forced to assume she had, I think natural Thinkamancy gets blocked.
    As for the time limit...welcome to the party, there is/was a huge ongoing debate about that with regard to the current turn in Spacerock.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:00 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    So no, it hasn't been said he is fated to croak Charlie, but he is fated to defeat him.
    Or maybe Parson is just fated to be able to defeat Charlie and the "must" is coming from Isaac. Since it's obvious that anyone able to defeat Charlie would do it, unless that person decided to go to Stupidworld instead. Until we hear an actual Prediction from a Predictamancer it's hard to know anything solidly.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    Does the ruler still have access to natural Thinkamancy? What can they do? Could you pressure a ruler into ordering all their units turn to your side?
    I think she effectively stops being the ruler of the side as soon as she is captured. We know that she now takes her turn with Faq and lives on upkeep that Faq provides. Since no one has asked her to sign anything to guarantee her honesty, we have to conclude that she is unable to make binding agreements for her side. I expect that she also can no longer sense the state of her side or give orders using natural Thinkamancy. Otherwise it wouldn't be safe to leave a ruler alive as a captive and it would also make it unfair to her side's attempts to retake her if her entire side could be controlled by coercing her. It is up to her warlords to make their own decisions about rescuing her, just like it would be in Stupidworld.

    If a side is left with neither a ruler nor a chief warlord, the warlords may even be able to choose their own chief warlord by consensus. Or perhaps it happens naturally to the warlord with the greatest Leadership.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    What happens if someone never ends their turn, is there some time limit after which it happens automatically?
    There must be. Time behaves strangely on Erfworld, but it still won't wait for anyone. A side can end its turn at will, but a side doesn't push the sun across the sky. There are only so many hours in a day and every side involved in a conflict gets its turn every day, so the more sides there are, the shorter the time limit has to be.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:47 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    So no, it hasn't been said he is fated to croak Charlie, but he is fated to defeat him.
    Or maybe Parson is just fated to be able to defeat Charlie and the "must" is coming from Isaac. Since it's obvious that anyone able to defeat Charlie would do it, unless that person decided to go to Stupidworld instead. Until we hear an actual Prediction from a Predictamancer it's hard to know anything solidly.

    I guess, but a prophecy like that would sound a tad redundant.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:54 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    Does the ruler still have access to natural Thinkamancy? What can they do? Could you pressure a ruler into ordering all their units turn to your side?
    I think she effectively stops being the ruler of the side as soon as she is captured. We know that she now takes her turn with Faq and lives on upkeep that Faq provides. Since no one has asked her to sign anything to guarantee her honesty, we have to conclude that she is unable to make binding agreements for her side. I expect that she also can no longer sense the state of her side or give orders using natural Thinkamancy. Otherwise it wouldn't be safe to leave a ruler alive as a captive and it would also make it unfair to her side's attempts to retake her if her entire side could be controlled by coercing her. It is up to her warlords to make their own decisions about rescuing her, just like it would be in Stupidworld.

    If a side is left with neither a ruler nor a chief warlord, the warlords may even be able to choose their own chief warlord by consensus. Or perhaps it happens naturally to the warlord with the greatest Leadership.

    I don't know about that. We saw with Unaroyal that when an Overlord croaks without an heir, the entire side's units are disbanded. The same would have happened to Jetstone if Slately didn't get the money to make Tremennis his Heir.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:56 pm 
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    warriortribble wrote:
    Oh Loj. How do you expect to get any justice when you can't get the prisoner to turn and you can't kill her either cause in both cases hundreds will end up disbanded?


    Olive's comment about disbanding "hundreds" may be the most damning admission she's made so far, and I hope Wanda and/or Jillian has the wit to pick up on its significance. Haffaton is a massive side in terms of area, unprecedentedly so. And it only has a few hundred units in the field? How can that be unless Olive's entire approach to conquest is to keep all expenses at a minimum by keeping the population at a minimum. A good question to ask might be "how many units have you disbanded for the sole purpose keeping Haffaton economically viable?"

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:21 pm 
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    atalex wrote:
    warriortribble wrote:
    Oh Loj. How do you expect to get any justice when you can't get the prisoner to turn and you can't kill her either cause in both cases hundreds will end up disbanded?


    Olive's comment about disbanding "hundreds" may be the most damning admission she's made so far, and I hope Wanda and/or Jillian has the wit to pick up on its significance. Haffaton is a massive side in terms of area, unprecedentedly so. And it only has a few hundred units in the field? How can that be unless Olive's entire approach to conquest is to keep all expenses at a minimum by keeping the population at a minimum. A good question to ask might be "how many units have you disbanded for the sole purpose keeping Haffaton economically viable?"

    Well, Jillian made note of the small number, but likely more as a tactical concern than one of having to disband units. Of course, it might well be possible to simply not produce units in a city.

    As for the ending turn thing, it's a good question. There may be a time limit, or rulers may have some natural urge to end their turn.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:32 pm 
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    Back in Book 1, Charlie wanted to recruit Parson, not croak him. In fact he demanded as a condition of his aid that the RCC capture Parson instead of croaking him.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:04 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Time behaves strangely on Erfworld, but it still won't wait for anyone. A side can end its turn at will, but a side doesn't push the sun across the sky. There are only so many hours in a day and every side involved in a conflict gets its turn every day, so the more sides there are, the shorter the time limit has to be.


    The sun moving back and forth across the sky as a scout changes zones was one of the examples given in the original conversation in the text update, as I recall.

    The implications of that were that there are as many hours as you need, because a) you'll eventually run out of juice or move or items eventually, and b) relative time means that you can spend ten thousand perspective years planning and simulating if you want without it even being noticed by the other sides, which is kinda the point of turn-based mechanics. A time limit would imply that time passing in one location means that amount of time passes elsewhere, which was directly explained as not being the case. Everyone will end their turn eventually, and no matter how much perspective time went on the other side should not experience any difference unless actually in the same hex.

    A time limit serves no purpose and doesn't make sense when time isn't flowing anyway.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:30 pm 
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    Jinren wrote:
    A time limit serves no purpose and doesn't make sense when time isn't flowing anyway.
    And when time is flowing, it makes no sense to not have a time limit. Imagine you are a chief warlord directing an army while personally staying in a single hex. The sun moves overhead; we know that from the discussion about time and scouting. So if there is no time limit then what does the sun do if you decide not to end the turn? Does the sun halt its journey across the sky? Does it turn around and head back the way it came? Does it set and rise again with no night in between? Can you command it to stop moving?

    In order to imagine no time limit, you need to imagine at least one crazy thing. I'm aware that some crazy things are true in Erfworld, but we have no evidence that any of these particular crazy things are true, and we have no evidence that turns have no time limit. On the contrary, we have evidence that turns do have a time limit, and the only way we can imagine that they don't is by changing the nature of time itself. We know that time behaves strangely when traveling from hex to hex. To say that there is no time limit for a turn we must also have time behave strangely within a single hex, something which we've heard nothing about, and we should have heard about it from Parson when he was discussing other time strangeness.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:20 pm 
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    How would time move strangely in a single hex?

    A day in a single hex would take exactly as long as it takes you and anyone else in the battlespace to do all the actions they're going to take. Somebody staying in a single hex wouldn't notice anything strange: the sun moves forward across the sky, rising at dawn and setting when everyone's turn is over.

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