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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:15 pm 
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bladestorm wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:
Zeku wrote:
Charlie's testimony would certainly be an interesting read, but it's hardly "evidence," and thus doesn't advance the case in a meaningful way. I think we (the readers) understand that both father and daughter are guilty of something, the only question being what that is.


Actually, it's absolutely evidence... it's direct (non-hearsay) testimony, which is often considered to be extremely powerful evidence in a court of law.

I am wondering if the "terrible price" that Charlie used to save his own life was to effectively merge himself with the Arkendish? This would mesh with some early theories posited about Charlie during Book One, and we now know that he did have a very strong attunement over a period of time, and this might also explain why he's never seen any more. In the Wizard of Oz, the Wizard was thought to be like a disembodied voice which was amplified by machinery, so the thematic elements would be similar.

Anyway, just a thought!

This is not evidence.

Charlie is a Carnimancer, who bends the rules to get his own desired outcome. If he lies to the court, they cannot hold him accountable. No one from Faq or Haffaton has the power to force Charlie to do anything. They also cannot verify his testimony anymore than they can verify Olive's non-hearsay testimony.

Wanda's trying really hard, but getting nowhere.

The only thing Charlie needs to do to completely bury the information about his past is to survive. The mechanics of Erfworld make is so that there is no passing down of information. Units are popped with the information they need to know; they don't have to be taught anything. The number of people who have any personal knowledge of Charlie is dwindling. Who's left from this court? Jillian, Wanda, Jack...nope, Loj... wait no again, umm.... So just Wanda and Jillian, both of which have been set up into positions where they can be eliminated. In fact, he could send Jillian after the Hammer. Wiping out the final two people who know anything about him would net him Arkentools. That's a win-win situation, especially if they wipe each other out.



You forgot Marie the Predictamancer. And who knows who else they might have told. I agree that time is on Charlie's side but consider this. Let's consider that he doesn't make any deal here counting on time to do his work for him. Well, however many turns in the future the present comic is from here Charlie has himself one hell of a problem because these folks survive. Notably Marie and Wanda. These are two people instrumental in the Summoning of Parson and therefore at the very heart of his problem. Seems to me like it would be advantageous for him to deal with them now in some way if he could! He can't know the specifics of as to how they could be a problem in the future but Charlie is savvy enough to know that this knowledge is better buried.

As to the question of trusting his testimony or not (if he agrees to give it in the first place and I don't see a lot of reason for him to do so) that's why we have a judge and jury. They have to decide the truth of what happened based on the testimony and evidence. I agree that none of this can really be verified under the circumstance of the trail. But so did the Judge and jurors when this trial began. Yet the trail is being held. So I guess they will hear the testimony and make a decision. Otherwise what are they doing?

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:32 pm 
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    "buying back his life at a terrible cost"

    Maybe he's bald and in a wheelchair, when he isn't plugged into the Arkendish via a cerebro-like interface?

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:52 pm 
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    Charlie in book 2 already does work *for free* or even *pays* for the work (eg Jilllian) when involving stopping a threat to him. A few free words are *much* cheaper than paying for a Turnomancer, revealing an ace/super spell "kingsworld", twisting Hagar's arm, making a scroll for Parson, revealing to many how much he can hack thinkomancy and books, etc.

    Given the described history, Olive and her side are likely a *big* threat to him, and also some desire for revenge. (Olive and friends wiping out possibly 20+ sides and CharlieComm not so strong yet)

    So Charlie may help for "free" and worry about wiping out traces of that help later with help of unwitting Stanley and friends.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:05 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    This is not evidence. Charlie is a Carnimancer, who bends the rules to get his own desired outcome. If he lies to the court, they cannot hold him accountable. No one from Faq or Haffaton has the power to force Charlie to do anything.
    Let's not forget that a deal in Erfworld can be magically binding and force people to tell the truth, as evidenced by Parson being forced to be honest about the Mathamancy that he does for Charlie. If everything Wanda says is true, then maybe Charlie will want to see Olive croaked. Maybe Charlie will extract some agreement from Faq in exchange for testimony that is guaranteed to be honest. I agree that would nicely explain why we haven't heard more about Wanda telling Parson all about Charlie, but it raises the question of why they didn't start this trial by having Olive sign an agreement like that.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:44 pm 
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    hmm, maybe a prisoner can't sign anything?

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:24 pm 
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    Carnymancy theory time. Jojo "made a deal" to save Sylvia, but it apparently changed her, and she still died in a fire eventually. Charlie supposedly used Carnymancy to save himself, but Judy also said that she let him go. Now we are being told that Parson is fated to croak Charlie. Perhaps Carnymancy lets you put off your end, but attaches a fate to you in exchange? And then what was once not your fate, merely your end, becomes your fate?

    I'm going to make an even wilder theory. Supposedly before getting the dish, Charlie wanted peace. And then something changed. He said uniting Erfworld was now something he absolutely did not want. So say the Arkendish allowed him to use Predictamancy, letting him view his own fate. Since predictamancy is often hazy, he tries to use Olive's flower power to extend his sight, and fill in details. And he then sees that a summoned perfect warlord is destined to bring peace to Erf, but that they will also croak him in the process. So now the goal of uniting the world leads to his death. Now, anyone who finds out their fate is to die would try to fight it, but being a carnymancer, he is actually able to attempt it. He uses carnymancy to save himself from Judy, but like Jojo and Sylvia, he's only put off the inevitable. The details are different, but he is still fated to be croaked by a perfect warlord, who will then bring peace. So he creates Charlescom, and makes the mission statement to create more business, or more war, at every opportunity. The decrypted Archons say that his goals are to make money, more money, more power, more archons, and more money. If money is his goal, and he's just using the money to get more Archons, which make him more money, what good is the money? Basically, he's got no interest in conquest, just self-preservation. He keeps war going to prevent peace, and thus his end, while making his capitol more and more well guarded.

    For whatever reason, Charlie doesn't kill Judy. Could be he's incapable because of fate, or maybe something to do with his Carnymancy. Maybe it's gratitude to her. But then she uses the Arkenshoes to return home, and he's rid of her. Then along comes Parson. Same thing. Maybe Charlie cannot kill Parson because fate won't let him. So he tries to engineer a situation where Parson will be forced to escape back to Stupidworld, putting off Charlie's fate once more. And it would have worked had Fate not exerted itself.

    I'm proposing that Charlie is doing everything in his power to save his own skin, even at the cost of peace on Erf. If the attuned are granted great power in exchange for becoming Tools of fate/the Titans, Charlie is trying to welsh on his part of the deal. This could make things interesting, because of the three attuned people we know of, Wanda is all about serving fate/the Titans, Charlie seems dead set opposed, and Stanley once thought he was an agent of the Titans, but since becoming overshadowed by Wanda, seems incredibly unenthusiastic about it.

    Wild and complicated though my theory is, I like it (not that I think it's accurate). It makes everyone a character you can relate to, while making Parson's choices the most important thing in the story. Will Parson go along with his fate, croak Charlie, and bring peace? Or will Parson fight fate because following it would make him a monster, and worse, a will-less tool? The story would boil down to Parson deciding if peace is worth the cost of not having free will. As it currently is, units have less and less power of choice the further down the chain of command that they get, and Parson was notably disturbed by it. If given the chance, I think Parson would try to give everyone the power of choice. And that could lead to Parson teaming up with Charlie to fight fate, putting Parson directly at odds with Wanda, and by extension, Jack. That would be enthralling, and potentially heart breaking. Seeing how Stanley would react to that would be interesting too.

    Sorry for the long ass post. Just thinking out loud.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:38 pm 
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    I like it!

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:40 pm 
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    Everyone keeps talking about how Charlie used Carnymancy to save himself from Judy, but he didn't. He used it to save himself from the poison that Olive gave him. So any theory involving Carnymancy changing his end at Judy's hands to his end at Parson's would have a fundamental flaw in it.

    Also, as for the evidence, interesting fact: Eye witness testimony is both the most persuasive to a jury, and also the least likely to be accurate. And Charlie has plenty of potential reasons to offer FAQ at least some information. If Olive really did try to kill him, he might want revenge, or he might just want Haffaton ended so they can't be a threat, can't create world peace (which he doesn't want), etc.

    Still, an amazing page to read, and I do have to agree with others that Charlie may put down a non-disclosure agreement on everyone involved, which is why no one has bothered telling Parson any of this stuff (to our knowledge at least, could have happened 'off screen' and just never been mentioned specifically to not spoil these pages)

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:42 pm 
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    Oh Loj. How do you expect to get any justice when you can't get the prisoner to turn and you can't kill her either cause in both cases hundreds will end up disbanded?

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:54 pm 
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    warriortribble wrote:
    Oh Loj. How do you expect to get any justice when you can't get the prisoner to turn and you can't kill her either cause in both cases hundreds will end up disbanded?


    Does Banhammer usually think about the rank-and-file? I seem to recall his Faq evacuation plan didn't account for most of them. Perhaps Olive has dealt him a bit of a piercing blow there by reminding him the peasantry exists.

    Anyway justice without disbanding is probably possible here, the question is whether anyone will think of it. e.g. Faq could offer to fund the promotion of a field warlord to heir by razing Efbaum, so that Haffaton doesn't immediately vanish, ostensibly to let Olive turn with a clear conscience (prisoner mechanics and prices permitting; there are probably several similar options like this).

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:09 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    <snip>
    Wild and complicated though my theory is, I like it (not that I think it's accurate). It makes everyone a character you can relate to, while making Parson's choices the most important thing in the story. Will Parson go along with his fate, croak Charlie, and bring peace? Or will Parson fight fate because following it would make him a monster, and worse, a will-less tool? The story would boil down to Parson deciding if peace is worth the cost of not having free will. As it currently is, units have less and less power of choice the further down the chain of command that they get, and Parson was notably disturbed by it. If given the chance, I think Parson would try to give everyone the power of choice. And that could lead to Parson teaming up with Charlie to fight fate, putting Parson directly at odds with Wanda, and by extension, Jack. That would be enthralling, and potentially heart breaking. Seeing how Stanley would react to that would be interesting too.

    Sorry for the long ass post. Just thinking out loud.


    Wild and complicated though it is, it sounds like you've hit a few nails on the head. I am minded of the corollary to Charlie's rule #3. "Creating problems for our clients creates business". While my normal reaction to how Charlescomm does business is the stereotypical evil greedy corporation, it's possible that you've exposed Charlie's real agenda, and the evil greedy corporation model is just the only model a Carnymancer can work with on that scale.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:21 pm 
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    Jinren wrote:
    warriortribble wrote:
    Oh Loj. How do you expect to get any justice when you can't get the prisoner to turn and you can't kill her either cause in both cases hundreds will end up disbanded?


    Does Banhammer usually think about the rank-and-file? I seem to recall his Faq evacuation plan didn't account for most of them. Perhaps Olive has dealt him a bit of a piercing blow there by reminding him the peasantry exists.

    Anyway justice without disbanding is probably possible here, the question is whether anyone will think of it. e.g. Faq could offer to fund the promotion of a field warlord to heir by razing Efbaum, so that Haffaton doesn't immediately vanish, ostensibly to let Olive turn with a clear conscience (prisoner mechanics and prices permitting; there are probably several similar options like this).


    FAQ doesn't have the money to fund an heir promotion like that. Until they captured Elfbaum they didn't have any cities anymore. They are probably lucky to be paying their upkeep right now.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:13 pm 
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    Mikalyaran wrote:
    Jinren wrote:
    warriortribble wrote:
    Oh Loj. How do you expect to get any justice when you can't get the prisoner to turn and you can't kill her either cause in both cases hundreds will end up disbanded?


    Does Banhammer usually think about the rank-and-file? I seem to recall his Faq evacuation plan didn't account for most of them. Perhaps Olive has dealt him a bit of a piercing blow there by reminding him the peasantry exists.

    Anyway justice without disbanding is probably possible here, the question is whether anyone will think of it. e.g. Faq could offer to fund the promotion of a field warlord to heir by razing Efbaum, so that Haffaton doesn't immediately vanish, ostensibly to let Olive turn with a clear conscience (prisoner mechanics and prices permitting; there are probably several similar options like this).


    FAQ doesn't have the money to fund an heir promotion like that. Until they captured Elfbaum they didn't have any cities anymore. They are probably lucky to be paying their upkeep right now.

    But razing a level 5 city would give them more than enough schmuckers to allow a promotion. They don't have a moneymancer (I think) to turn it into a gem to give to Olive though. Then again, we know that money can be given without a moneymancer, we just don't know what sort of constraints there are on that. It might involve having to have units from both sides in the same hex, but is likely more complex than that. Lord Firebruagh managed to set something up with paying frenemy and that other side without a moneymancer. Charlie managed to collect money from JS during the siege of GK. Don King however was unable to give money to Slately without going through his own moneymancer. This may not have been a strictly required thing, perhaps that simply allows for better conversion rate. Charlie gave money to JS in the form of a gem sent through a magic hat, but JS doesn't have a moneymancer to do that for when they had to pay Charlie earlier (though could have hired one from MK).

    P.S. I do like the idea that Charlie is somehow physically crippled (Prof X. style maybe) or merged with his dish or something like that. I'm sure we'll learn eventually. Possibly right now, but not very likely.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:44 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    They don't have a moneymancer (I think) to turn it into a gem to give to Olive though.

    Yes they do actually. http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Moothfott

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:17 pm 
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    People keep saying that Charlie has no reason to offer this testimony, but he has a good one... revenge. One of the strongest motivators. If Olive tried to kill him, why would he NOT turn her in (unless she paid him a heretofore unheard of amount, because I am assuming his life is worth more to him than just about anything). If she did not try, then he stands to gain from telling people that too. I do not know if he will say she did or did not attempt patricide, or if he will be lying or not, but I believe that Rob would not have led this way for it to be a dead end, and beyond that Charlie does not have a good reason to decline testimony unless Erfworld has a Fifth Amendment and he needs it.

    I do not know what he will say, but Charlie will testify and make some big gain in doing so... I hope that somehow (involving Foolamancy) they change Olive into Janis by altering her. Maybe Charlie and Jack linked could change a person's memory or history. Don't know. Just tin foil theorizing a bit.

    Edited for grammar.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:38 am 
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    Morni wrote:
    I like this part:

    Quote:
    He survived by means of Carnymancy, buying back his life at a terrible cost.


    is this the 2nd time this carnymancer power mentionned so far?

    1st time it was mentionned Jojo did this for Sylvia.
    2nd time Charlie did it for himself.

    I think the third was the unsummoning scroll that Jojo gave to Parson.

    multilis wrote:
    Charlie in book 2 already does work *for free* or even *pays* for the work (eg Jilllian) when involving stopping a threat to him. A few free words are *much* cheaper than paying for a Turnomancer, revealing an ace/super spell "kingsworld", twisting Hagar's arm, making a scroll for Parson, revealing to many how much he can hack thinkomancy and books, etc.

    Given the described history, Olive and her side are likely a *big* threat to him, and also some desire for revenge. (Olive and friends wiping out possibly 20+ sides and CharlieComm not so strong yet)

    So Charlie may help for "free" and worry about wiping out traces of that help later with help of unwitting Stanley and friends.

    That makes me wonder if the "terrible cost" might be literal. He took out a loan for a huge amount of schmuckers which is why he's always looking to make the largest possible profit.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:34 am 
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    The summoning scroll is different. Sylvia took fatal damage, and Jojo rigged the incapacitation rules to save her. The unsummoning scroll is a different sort of thing.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:24 am 
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    Some Archons came from a faraway side to carry Charlie away...

    Did he call the old Ruler of the city Charlie currently lives in to come pick him up, then? In that case, did Charlie subsequently take over that side to found Charlescomm?

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:06 am 
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    I don't remember which update it was. It was while Jillian was high on hero buds. While she was hallucinating, a fat jester yelled at her in her mind. Anyone else think that might have been Charlie?

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:05 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I don't remember which update it was. It was while Jillian was high on hero buds. While she was hallucinating, a fat jester yelled at her in her mind. Anyone else think that might have been Charlie?


    Good spot on that. Potentially, yes. I don't think there's enough one way or another to discount that possibility, at any rate.


    I like that we have gained more insight on why Charlscomm doesn't pop Warlords, too. It seemed like an odd limitation, since they give such a huge leadership bonus, but it seems like Charlie doesn't want any more kids.

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