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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:56 pm 
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bladestorm wrote:
If you ask Wanda what the Pliers do, she would be able to tell you, based upon what she has used them for in the past. It doesn't mean she knew what the previously attuned wielder did with them.

The thing is, these are characters in a carefully crafted work of fiction, not real people. Judy explicitly asserted that the Shoes give unlimited move to anyone who attunes to them. She may have no way of knowing that, but it doesn't look like there's going to be an opportunity for the reader to learn that she is prone to such fallacies.


I can't put my finger on it, but I'm getting the impression that Olive didn't purposely introduce her Ruler to a disabling addiction. I suspect that Olive didn't realize what the full impact of the heroine buds would be when she allowed Judy to start using them, and that Olive's controlling behavior (ankle monitor, etc.) is partly a reaction to the effect of the buds on Judy - and the ankle monitor isn't very useful if the person you're monitoring has unlimited move. So when she said, "they're dangerous", she meant, "they allow you to cause chaos".

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:09 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    If you ask Wanda what the Pliers do, she would be able to tell you, based upon what she has used them for in the past. It doesn't mean she knew what the previously attuned wielder did with them.

    The thing is, these are characters in a carefully crafted work of fiction, not real people. Judy explicitly asserted that the Shoes give unlimited move to anyone who attunes to them. She may have no way of knowing that, but it doesn't look like there's going to be an opportunity for the reader to learn that she is prone to such fallacies.


    I can't put my finger on it, but I'm getting the impression that Olive didn't purposely introduce her Ruler to a disabling addiction. I suspect that Olive didn't realize what the full impact of the heroine buds would be when she allowed Judy to start using them, and that Olive's controlling behavior (ankle monitor, etc.) is partly a reaction to the effect of the buds on Judy - and the ankle monitor isn't very useful if the person you're monitoring has unlimited move. So when she said, "they're dangerous", she meant, "they allow you to cause chaos".


    Maybe the ankle monitor was to be able to keep track of where the Ruler of the Side went off to. The most important unit on your Side, and she can go to any point in erfworld in a single turn, mainly because she determines when the Side's turn ends. She can go 3000 hexes away across terrain that eats up 35 move per hex. Even with flight and the highest move we have seen yet, it would take anyone else on the Side many many turns to catch up to that. What happens when she goes somewhere and gets into trouble?

    Like maybe she wandered off one day 40,000 hexes away, found a strange, but pretty flower, and decided to put it in her hair. BAM! Heroine buds are discovered. Ruler is strung out, and it is going to take about 80 turns to get to her. That Unlimited Move is wasted when the attuned is wasted and not moving anywhere. And the situation gets worse when the attuned is wasted, and wandering. Do erfworld units drown? What happens when they come out of the bud haze and ave no idea where they are? Just keep moving until they find something familiar?

    So on a Ruler, those things are dangerous. On CWL Jillian, they'd be just as dangerous, but in a different way. On Piker Stanley, not so much -- just let him roam around all over and eventually he will get croaked at almost no loss to his Side, especially if his Ruler didn't even know he had attuned yet.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:47 am 
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    I admit I didn't read all 8 pages of forumizing too closely, but didn't see this idea brought up here yet. Using these quotes:

    Quote:
    “Yes, but...back then, there were people here I loved, people who loved me,” said the Overlady. She turned away from the Florist and looked at the metal golem, standing impassive and motionless behind her. She touched its cheek, looking sad. “I think that the ’Shoes send you where you belong, is what it is. That’s how the Wizard put it, at least. And he'd know. Charlie knows everything, doesn’t he?”

    Quote:
    But I don’t regret it. He was a lovely man.” Her eyes glistened as she blinked in the gleam of sunshine and sparkling towers.

    “I kept his city just as he liked it,” she said, her voice growing even more frail and sad, “but I’m told he prefers blue now.”

    Quote:
    She clicked the heels of the Arkenshoes together, and red sparks flew. “There’s no place like...eugh, Kansas.” She shouted, and clicked again. “There’s no place like flat, windy, pig-boop smellin’ rural Kansas!” She clicked once more.

    “There’s no place like home!”
    ... a clever conspiracy theorist could make the case that Judy might have been teleported to the person she loves... Charlie. Still think Kansas is more likely, but I'm calling that door left open.

    Also yes, Banhammer is either dumb or playing at it.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:07 am 
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    That would be an odd pairing. Two Arkentools together, yet one grants Unlimited Move while the other is stationary. At least with the Hammer and Pliers, both are mobile.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:10 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    I admit I didn't read all 8 pages of forumizing too closely, but didn't see this idea brought up here yet. Using these quotes:

    Quote:
    “Yes, but...back then, there were people here I loved, people who loved me,” said the Overlady. She turned away from the Florist and looked at the metal golem, standing impassive and motionless behind her. She touched its cheek, looking sad. “I think that the ’Shoes send you where you belong, is what it is. That’s how the Wizard put it, at least. And he'd know. Charlie knows everything, doesn’t he?”

    Quote:
    But I don’t regret it. He was a lovely man.” Her eyes glistened as she blinked in the gleam of sunshine and sparkling towers.

    “I kept his city just as he liked it,” she said, her voice growing even more frail and sad, “but I’m told he prefers blue now.”

    Quote:
    She clicked the heels of the Arkenshoes together, and red sparks flew. “There’s no place like...eugh, Kansas.” She shouted, and clicked again. “There’s no place like flat, windy, pig-boop smellin’ rural Kansas!” She clicked once more.

    “There’s no place like home!”
    ... a clever conspiracy theorist could make the case that Judy might have been teleported to the person she loves... Charlie. Still think Kansas is more likely, but I'm calling that door left open.

    Also yes, Banhammer is either dumb or playing at it.



    I think she would have remained overlord if we were still somewhere in Erfworld.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:30 pm 
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    Finwe wrote:
    I think she would have remained overlord if we were still somewhere in Erfworld.
    Mostly: good point, I didn't think of that.

    However, this raises a different question... what happens to overlord status when the overlord is captured? It seems like it should default to heir, or else it would be a fun abusive mechanic to not kill a captured overlord.

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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:36 am 
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    I think I was first to call that Jillian kills Olive but not Judy. Hooray for being right!

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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:52 pm 
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    Hmm, that "don't remember me fondly" speech Judy makes feels like a quote. Is she quoting someone there?

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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:00 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    If you ask Wanda what the Pliers do, she would be able to tell you, based upon what she has used them for in the past. It doesn't mean she knew what the previously attuned wielder did with them.

    The thing is, these are characters in a carefully crafted work of fiction, not real people. Judy explicitly asserted that the Shoes give unlimited move to anyone who attunes to them. She may have no way of knowing that, but it doesn't look like there's going to be an opportunity for the reader to learn that she is prone to such fallacies.


    I can't put my finger on it, but I'm getting the impression that Olive didn't purposely introduce her Ruler to a disabling addiction. I suspect that Olive didn't realize what the full impact of the heroine buds would be when she allowed Judy to start using them, and that Olive's controlling behavior (ankle monitor, etc.) is partly a reaction to the effect of the buds on Judy - and the ankle monitor isn't very useful if the person you're monitoring has unlimited move. So when she said, "they're dangerous", she meant, "they allow you to cause chaos".


    Maybe the ankle monitor was to be able to keep track of where the Ruler of the Side went off to. The most important unit on your Side, and she can go to any point in erfworld in a single turn, mainly because she determines when the Side's turn ends. She can go 3000 hexes away across terrain that eats up 35 move per hex. Even with flight and the highest move we have seen yet, it would take anyone else on the Side many many turns to catch up to that. What happens when she goes somewhere and gets into trouble?

    Like maybe she wandered off one day 40,000 hexes away, found a strange, but pretty flower, and decided to put it in her hair. BAM! Heroine buds are discovered. Ruler is strung out, and it is going to take about 80 turns to get to her. That Unlimited Move is wasted when the attuned is wasted and not moving anywhere. And the situation gets worse when the attuned is wasted, and wandering. Do erfworld units drown? What happens when they come out of the bud haze and ave no idea where they are? Just keep moving until they find something familiar?

    So on a Ruler, those things are dangerous. On CWL Jillian, they'd be just as dangerous, but in a different way. On Piker Stanley, not so much -- just let him roam around all over and eventually he will get croaked at almost no loss to his Side, especially if his Ruler didn't even know he had attuned yet.


    Yes they can drown. Count Two Potato drowned. But no, the flowers were made by Olive and the Thinkamancer, while they were under the effects of some other flower. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

    I don't think Judy Gale got strung out on Heroin buds while exploring. But it is extremely chaotic to have your ruler disappearing at random to have adventures on the other side of Erf. Actually, what Olive should have done is to give Judy the slippers back and hope she encountered Jillian Banhammer out in the wild, thus fulfilling the Prediction. Not that it would have worked, for as we saw Jillian was strangely reluctant to croak Judy, even though part of her--the heroin-inspired jester--very much wanted to.

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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:34 pm 
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    An epileptic tree of my own:

    The Arkentools are all objects from Earth, or facsimiles thereof. Toy hammer, common pliers, satellite dish, red shoes. What's the only other object from Earth known to exist in Erfworld?



    ...the clothes Parson was wearing when he was teleported in.

    At first, I thought it would be neat if Parson used Jeff's scroll to teleport to Earth, and then realize that all Arkentools may have come from Earth. Then he might suppose the converse is true, that any object brought from Earth into Erfworld becomes an Arkentool. Suddenly Parson picks up his dice and finds a way back to Erfworld (perhaps by meeting Judy or a descendant and using the Arkenshoes as mentioned earlier in this thread, because Parson probably considers Erfworld "home" by now), now armed with his own (presumably attuned) Arkentool: the Arkendice. It would at least provide unmatched Luckamancy, I would think.

    However, there's an easier way for Parson to get a hold of an object of Earth origin: go back to GW and dig up his old, funky, stale, smelly Hamstard shirt and jeans and see if they have any powers heretofore unknown. Yeah, I know, they're just clothes, and who would ever think to try and use them for something? But if you had a hammer, and didn't know what it was or how to use it, you'd probably think it was kind of useless too.

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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:00 pm 
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    Umm, could this have something to do with Charlie's uncanny ability to always have an archon in just the right place?

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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:18 pm 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    Umm, could this have something to do with Charlie's uncanny ability to always have an archon in just the right place?

    I doubt it. A unit like an Archon doesn't seem likely to attune to a 'Tool, and there are too many of them for that to be a plausible explanation anyway. I think it's just that he's a tactical mastermind for one, and also I'm sure there are plenty of archon just laying around in certain spots doing nothing. We just never hear about that, because they're not important.

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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:47 pm 
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    Manic Oppressive wrote:
    Well, I suspect we're about to see the end of Haffaton. Good riddance to Olive.

    And as a Kansas resident, allow me to state my opinion on all of these horrible, base, vile and disgusting accusations of the nature of Kansas.

    They are completely true. Carry on.


    The weird thing is that L. Frank Baum was describing North Dakota. He never visited Kansas in his life.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:29 pm 
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    zbeeblebrox wrote:
    Hmm, that "don't remember me fondly" speech Judy makes feels like a quote. Is she quoting someone there?


    Possibly the Phantom of the Opera, there's a song with similar lyrics.
    http://www.elyrics.net/read/p/phantom-o ... yrics.html

    Think of me
    think of me fondly,
    when we've said
    goodbye.
    Remember me
    once in a while -
    please promise me
    you'll try.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:08 pm 
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    zbeeblebrox wrote:
    Hmm, that "don't remember me fondly" speech Judy makes feels like a quote. Is she quoting someone there?


    It could be Iron and Wine, guy had a song with that bit in the lyrics...

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:55 am 
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    Charlie does keep his archons throughout Erf.

    Quote:
    Decrypted Archon (paraphrased by Parson):
    How many units? At the time they had been decrypted, a little over six hundred Archons. About eighty percent of these were out in the field, either serving clients or standing by to be hired near hotspots. They ranged farther out into Erfworld than most sides imagined the world existed. Another 700 or so golems of various types (mostly cloth) guarded the city.


    Plus, with the Arkendish, it wouldn't be that hard to guess where major battles are brewing and which sides could afford his services.

    http://www.erfworld.com/2009/10/summer- ... 80%93-046/

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:22 pm 
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    Going back to an earlier topic, yes, I too am disappointed in Banhammer. Apparently he's the kind of wise fool I have seen all to often among some of my fellow academics. High intelligence, vast learning, but low wisdom. Those three qualities don't always align.

    But a prediction made my many readers a couple of threads back is still coming true. By inviting the court of FAQ to visit, Olive was getting in over her head with a vicious and subtle band of experienced courtiers. (She had no choice, anyway.) The only difference is that Marie and Jack are outmaneuvering her, not Banhammer.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:56 pm 
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    I knew something was going to happen to presevre FAQ, as we all did. The tool couldn't conquer a side that wasn't around.

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:25 pm 
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    Goshen wrote:
    Going back to an earlier topic, yes, I too am disappointed in Banhammer. Apparently he's the kind of wise fool I have seen all to often among some of my fellow academics. High intelligence, vast learning, but low wisdom. Those three qualities don't always align.


    We also know that Olive is a fantastically charismatic person who goes around half dressed, and she knows how to flatter him. He could have lots half of his IQ to her wiles.

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:13 pm 
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    Wender wrote:
    Goshen wrote:
    Going back to an earlier topic, yes, I too am disappointed in Banhammer. Apparently he's the kind of wise fool I have seen all to often among some of my fellow academics. High intelligence, vast learning, but low wisdom. Those three qualities don't always align.


    We also know that Olive is a fantastically charismatic person who goes around half dressed, and she knows how to flatter him. He could have lots half of his IQ to her wiles.

    So basically Banhammer bore the curse of most men -- popped with a brain and a penis, but only enough blood supply to use one at a time.

    Also

    Whpshh

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