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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
 Post Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Thoke wrote:
Hmm... So Cubbins is the only reason why Slately II & Friends aren't shackled? If I remember right, he mentioned something like that before.

I'm assuming only garrison units can hold the city from being captured, and C-Slately and his troops aren't garrison units but field units. Right?

I wonder how Cubbins is going to get out of the city being a garrison unit. I think Slately doesn't even know he's in the sky forwarded towards Tramennis. Tramennis is probably out of the city hex by now. And if the garrison unit rules didn't cross Ace's mind when he "rescued" Cubbins, soon we're going to see a very dramatic page of one specific incapacitated unit falling from the sky...


I don't think it was EVER said that only garrison can hold the city and it was never said that cubbins was a garrison unit. I think any unit can keep the city from falling and that's why cubbins was all that was holding the city because at the time the king and all of his men were sitting outside of the garrison. All enemy units must be croaked or captured to take the garrison... then the city falls and any units in the city but outside the garrison are captured.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:34 pm 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    Thoke wrote:
    Hmm... So Cubbins is the only reason why Slately II & Friends aren't shackled? If I remember right, he mentioned something like that before.

    I'm assuming only garrison units can hold the city from being captured, and C-Slately and his troops aren't garrison units but field units. Right?

    I wonder how Cubbins is going to get out of the city being a garrison unit. I think Slately doesn't even know he's in the sky forwarded towards Tramennis. Tramennis is probably out of the city hex by now. And if the garrison unit rules didn't cross Ace's mind when he "rescued" Cubbins, soon we're going to see a very dramatic page of one specific incapacitated unit falling from the sky...


    I don't think it was EVER said that only garrison can hold the city and it was never said that cubbins was a garrison unit. I think any unit can keep the city from falling and that's why cubbins was all that was holding the city because at the time the king and all of his men were sitting outside of the garrison. All enemy units must be croaked or captured to take the garrison... then the city falls and any units in the city but outside the garrison are captured.

    Cubbins also had Leadership, which meant that the remaining units in the garrison did not HAVE to autoengage. Unlead troops autoengaging against a lead stack of dwagons would end really quickly.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:50 am 
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    No, he was not leading those other units, so those units susceptible to autoengage would have to.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:52 pm 
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    The troops weren't autoengaging because Captain Downer was in the field (and possibly other warlords). We have no idea if Cubbins has leadership.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:02 pm 
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    wrecan wrote:
    The troops weren't autoengaging because Captain Downer was in the field (and possibly other warlords). We have no idea if Cubbins has leadership.

    Actually, I thought that units needed tobe stacked with leadership to not Autoengage, but then I honestlyhave not spent as much effort trying to untwist the rules of Erfworld int heir nuances and situationals as most.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:17 pm 
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    wrecan wrote:
    The troops weren't autoengaging because Captain Downer was in the field (and possibly other warlords). We have no idea if Cubbins has leadership.


    He's a caster and therefore a commander type whether or not he has leadership.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:45 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    wrecan wrote:
    The troops weren't autoengaging because Captain Downer was in the field (and possibly other warlords). We have no idea if Cubbins has leadership.


    He's a caster and therefore a commander type whether or not he has leadership.

    Casters do not have leadership. They are commanders, but, according to Parson, "stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack". We have no idea is a Commander counts as a "leader" for this purpose. For all we know, they count as a Commander only for purposes of their special units, such as Sizemore with his golems, Ace with his golems, and Wanda with her croaked. At any rate, it appears the commander would have to stack with his units to prevent the auto-attack and Cubbins was in no condition to stack with anybody.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:52 am 
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    wrecan wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    wrecan wrote:
    The troops weren't autoengaging because Captain Downer was in the field (and possibly other warlords). We have no idea if Cubbins has leadership.


    He's a caster and therefore a commander type whether or not he has leadership.

    Casters do not have leadership. They are commanders, but, according to Parson, "stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack". We have no idea is a Commander counts as a "leader" for this purpose. For all we know, they count as a Commander only for purposes of their special units, such as Sizemore with his golems, Ace with his golems, and Wanda with her croaked. At any rate, it appears the commander would have to stack with his units to prevent the auto-attack and Cubbins was in no condition to stack with anybody.


    Actually i think they do count as leaders atleast as far as auto engaging goes. Afterall though casters do not have leadership they can still lead stacks. Heck if you recall what Sizemore was basically doing during the battle of GK in the city was popping out of the ground, engaging the enemy and then disengaging and retreating into the ground; if he auto-engaged then he would not be able to retreat. I think what it means that they lack leadership refers to their lack of bonus; They can lead other units, but unlike a warlord or units with leadership, they do not provide their stacks with a bonus, with the exception of certain special types

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:49 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    Actually i think they do count as leaders atleast as far as auto engaging goes. Afterall though casters do not have leadership they can still lead stacks.

    But that was Sizemore stacking with his golems which is specifically mentioned as a special case (much like Wanda with her croaked or Ace with his cloth golems).

    What we don't know is whether a caster's mere presence prevents units from autoengaging. The phrase Parson used was that a stack without a leader autoengages. To me, that implies that the leader has to stack with the units. Cubbins was unconscious -- he couldn't stack. Perhaps he has that ability or not, when awake.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:53 am 
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    Commanders can lead. Leaders give a bonus based on their leadership. Even if they have a leadership of 0, they're still leading the stack.

    I think this is pretty clear. Why even have casters designated as commanders if only caster types that can give a bonus to golems can actually do anything at all with it, even tell their subordinates to hold back?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:12 am 
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    Who knows? There's so much about Erfworld mechanics we still don't know. I do think it would be really odd for unconscious commanders (whether caster or warlord) to prevent unled units from autoattacking.


    Also... were there any JS units other than Cubbins in the Garrison prior to Fakely, Downer, and Ace leading the attack? Who was Cubbins preventing from autoattacking anyway?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:11 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Commanders can lead. Leaders give a bonus based on their leadership. Even if they have a leadership of 0, they're still leading the stack.

    I think this is pretty clear. Why even have casters designated as commanders if only caster types that can give a bonus to golems can actually do anything at all with it, even tell their subordinates to hold back?


    I think the reason casters are designated as commanders is that I believe they are the random result of popping warlords.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:47 am 
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    If gold worms randomly popped as a result of setting production to yellow dwagons, you wouldn't say they were flyers like yellow dwagons unless they also flew.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:16 am 
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    If you ask me, Parson is going to get captured. He'll likely do something altruistic that saves units on both sides from the fire and, in being distracted, Slately will put a knife to his throat. About this time, Charlie will phone in and demand that Slately kill him.

    Slately's last act will be to take Parson prisoner instead and defy Charlie before doing a final jedi-death vanishing act.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:29 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    If gold worms randomly popped as a result of setting production to yellow dwagons, you wouldn't say they were flyers like yellow dwagons unless they also flew.

    no, but if they both are able to command then you would call them both commanders of sorts. Casters appear to be a special type of warlord. They pop with knowledge of their craft rather than warfare and add leadership bonuses only to units related to their craft (if applicable), but they can command/lead any unit.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:42 pm 
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    Okay... my point was that casters can lead arbitrary units for 0 bonus, preventing them from autoattacking. Their being a commander is not simply a linguistic cue that they are derived from something that could lead, yet they themselves cannot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:04 pm 
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    The popping mechanic would make sense. Maybe the size of the city also determine the chance of whether a warlord or a caster will pop, similar to how only cities over a certain level would be able to pop dwagons.

    Or, warlords and casters could just both be classified as a special unit pop. In Warbarons, when the event happens, you can select from which warlord you want to add, while regular production goes on as normal. For Erfworld, you may not be able to select, but you also have a chance of getting a caster.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:30 pm 
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    if theirs leadership in the square / heaxagon whatever.. they don't auto engage.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-19.png

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 100
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:50 am 
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    Thanks for reminding me of that.

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