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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:23 am 
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Lamech wrote:
Quote:
- Pigeons to walnuts
Pretty sure it was Jack's illusion at that point.


I don't think so. It seems like a very odd detail to throw in. You'd think he'd want Jillian to be minimally confused about what she's seeing so she doesn't suspect anything.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:41 am 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    Housellama wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    So what did we all learn today?

    4) Dwagons can survive off eating talking units.


    4. Again, I think this can be extended to feral units in general.


    Are all feral units predators or are you suggesting feral sheeps can also eat elves?

    Well of course feral sheep eat elves, do you think those bloodthirsty creatures would stop at eating birds?

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:04 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Quote:
    - Pigeons to walnuts
    Pretty sure it was Jack's illusion at that point.


    I don't think so. It seems like a very odd detail to throw in. You'd think he'd want Jillian to be minimally confused about what she's seeing so she doesn't suspect anything.


    Agreed. Also, considering the Arkenhammer has the - demonstrated elsewhere - ability to convert walnuts to pigeons, I'm thinking orlies to walnuts isn't much of a stretch.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:11 am 
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    effataigus wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Pretty sure it was Jack's illusion at that point.


    I don't think so. It seems like a very odd detail to throw in. You'd think he'd want Jillian to be minimally confused about what she's seeing so she doesn't suspect anything.


    Agreed. Also, considering the Arkenhammer has the - demonstrated elsewhere - ability to convert walnuts to pigeons, I'm thinking orlies to walnuts isn't much of a stretch.


    and it wouldn't surprise me that the side of the Arkenhammer decide that.
    red side turn walnut to pigeon
    green side turns birds to walnut

    yes yes he said it work.. 1 in 4 or 5 timeshttp://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F004.jpg

    but it's Stanley, really expect him to try 3 times one side, 3 times the other side to see this?

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:04 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    - Pigeons to walnuts
    Pretty sure it was Jack's illusion at that point. (Also it was on orly) Of course, it could very well do exactly that. Or even a wider spectrum of change-a-mancy.
    Hmmm, I was thinking more along the lines of the pigeon pie Bogroll baked which had walnuts. But he didn't use any walnuts to make it. So add:
    - Orlys to walnuts

    There was no indication that Jack had anything to do with the change.
    Lamech wrote:
    It also makes things disappear, though Stanley does not yet control it.
    It shoots other sorts lighting than the Van de graff.
    It is a epically powerful weapon.
    I suspect it "tames" people too. Quite possibly what blocked Vanna's turnamancy on Ansom.
    It seems to have done something to Stanly's personal dwagon.
    "Epically powerful" is accounted for under "artifact bonus in combat". What has it made disappear? I don't recall that. "Tames people" I would like to see a verifiable example of before I'd accept, since Vanna was quite uncertain of her ability to turn anything (she said something like "Pfff, I can try", not showing much confidence at all), and then was confused by Ansom being decrypted (she said something like "I'm not sure what I'm looking at"), and was at the very end of her juice and rapidly ran out. Plus it's been clearly established that the decrypted are Wanda's, and Stanley isn't too happy about that. If anything is protecting the decrypted from being turned, not that I'm saying there is, it'd more likely be the 'pliers than the 'hammer.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:50 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    There was no indication that Jack had anything to do with the change.

    Jack was very clearly running illusions at that point. You can see at the same time the orly is turned into a walnut, the bats have also appeared. (Which is what the dwagon was veiled into.)

    Oberon wrote:
    "Epically powerful" is accounted for under "artifact bonus in combat".
    Not even close. The staff of dealing no damage could have a artifact bonus of 100, yet be totally ineffective as a weapon. On a similar note, the tongs of death could instantly croak anything they hit but provide no bonus. Its mentioned on the cast page it is good at cracking things IIRC.
    Quote:
    What has it made disappear? I don't recall that.
    The text update were Stanley is thinking about the hammer?

    Quote:
    "Tames people" I would like to see a verifiable example of before I'd accept, since Vanna was quite uncertain of her ability to turn anything (she said something like "Pfff, I can try", not showing much confidence at all), and then was confused by Ansom being decrypted (she said something like "I'm not sure what I'm looking at"), and was at the very end of her juice and rapidly ran out.
    She said nothing of the sort about being confused by Ansom being decrypted. She was confused by something. It could have been an artifact grade protection, love, or an annoyingly high level. Or it might not have even been protection of any kind. Decrypted might just look different from normal units to turnamancer senses.

    Quote:
    Plus it's been clearly established that the decrypted are Wanda's, and Stanley isn't too happy about that. If anything is protecting the decrypted from being turned, not that I'm saying there is, it'd more likely be the 'pliers than the 'hammer.
    Its been very clearly established that the decrypted are not Wanda's and they are not protected from turning actually. People thought the decrypted were 100% loyal to Wanda, which is very clearly not the case.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:04 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    "Tames people" I would like to see a verifiable example of before I'd accept, since Vanna was quite uncertain of her ability to turn anything (she said something like "Pfff, I can try", not showing much confidence at all).

    Not sure where you're taking this from, one of a Turnamancers functions IS to turn people to their side. The only time Vanna expressed apprehension was when she was asked whether she could turn Ansom, because of his decrypted status. So if you're doubting that Vanna could turn people under normal circumstances, you're not reading the same comic we are...

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:31 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    There was no indication that Jack had anything to do with the change.

    Jack was very clearly running illusions at that point. You can see at the same time the orly is turned into a walnut, the bats have also appeared. (Which is what the dwagon was veiled into.)
    Sure, but it changed when Stanley hit it. Why spend juice changing a dead Orly into a walnut? That makes little sense. The sensible conclusion is that the 'hammer changed it.
    Lamech wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    "Epically powerful" is accounted for under "artifact bonus in combat".
    Not even close. The staff of dealing no damage could have a artifact bonus of 100, yet be totally ineffective as a weapon. On a similar note, the tongs of death could instantly croak anything they hit but provide no bonus.
    I guess what I was trying to convey is that I don't recall any reference to any given artifact being better in combat than any other. Neither "The staff of dealing no damage" nor "the tongs of death" appear to exist in this comic. But Parson referred to a part of the reason for the lake top dwagons having been killed as being an "artifact bonus." So, for now, all we know is that artifacts give an artifact bonus in combat. Speculations about which is better are just that, speculations with no supporting evidence.
    Lamech wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    What has it made disappear? I don't recall that.
    The text update were Stanley is thinking about the hammer?
    Ahhh, the old noodle story. No wonder I didn't remember that, it never happened on-screen.
    Lamech wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    "Tames people" I would like to see a verifiable example of before I'd accept, since Vanna was quite uncertain of her ability to turn anything (she said something like "Pfff, I can try", not showing much confidence at all), and then was confused by Ansom being decrypted (she said something like "I'm not sure what I'm looking at"), and was at the very end of her juice and rapidly ran out.
    She said nothing of the sort about being confused by Ansom being decrypted. She was confused by something. It could have been an artifact grade protection, love, or an annoyingly high level. Or it might not have even been protection of any kind. Decrypted might just look different from normal units to turnamancer senses.
    If you're going to argue against what I have laid out from the comic, it'd make your position a lot stronger if you matched my on-panel references with something other than idle speculation. And also didn't cherry pick one point to argue against while ignoring the other two. While "I'm not sure what I'm looking at" could possibly mean some wiggum artifact protection that's never been referenced anywhere, the decrypted are known to be strange to the typical Erfworlder. Again the simplest and most logical conclusion is that she was not sure if she had the juice for a ranged unit turn, was confused by the fact of Ansom being a decrypted, and then ran completely out of juice. That was what the comic conveyed to me, at least. There's no need to invent new powers and capabilities for artifacts to describe what happened in that scene.
    Lamech wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Plus it's been clearly established that the decrypted are Wanda's, and Stanley isn't too happy about that. If anything is protecting the decrypted from being turned, not that I'm saying there is, it'd more likely be the 'pliers than the 'hammer.
    Its been very clearly established that the decrypted are not Wanda's and they are not protected from turning actually. People thought the decrypted were 100% loyal to Wanda, which is very clearly not the case.
    Logic seems to escape you. If I say that the decrypted belong to Wanda, and cite Stanley's discontent about that situation as supporting evidence, you pointing out that a decrypted unit can turn or be turned is in no way a counter to my position. All other GK units belong to Stanley, and they can also turn or be turned. All FAQ units belonged to Banhammer, but Wanda turned. Followed after his capture by Jack also being turned. Your point has no meaning and no value: Units being able to be turned is a complete non-sequitur in a discussion of who owns them. So again: It's been clearly established that the decrypted are Wanda's units. Period.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:36 pm 
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    Zeroberon wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    "Tames people" I would like to see a verifiable example of before I'd accept, since Vanna was quite uncertain of her ability to turn anything (she said something like "Pfff, I can try", not showing much confidence at all).

    Not sure where you're taking this from, one of a Turnamancers functions IS to turn people to their side. The only time Vanna expressed apprehension was when she was asked whether she could turn Ansom, because of his decrypted status. So if you're doubting that Vanna could turn people under normal circumstances, you're not reading the same comic we are...
    I believe you have completely misread or misunderstood what I wrote. You appear to be agreeing with me while also disagreeing with me.

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    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:40 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    I believe you have completely misread or misunderstood what I wrote. You appear to be agreeing with me while also disagreeing with me.

    Okay I thought that might be the case. It seemed like you were saying that you required proof that Turnamancers could turn units at all, because you didn't believe they could (ignoring Decryption).

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:09 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    All FAQ units belonged to Banhammer, but Wanda turned. Followed after his capture by Jack also being turned.


    I agree with your argument, though I'm beginning to wonder if Wanda and jack DID turn. Yes, Wanda killed Banhammer, or at least reanimated him, but I wouldn't put it past Banhammer to have put that plan into motion solely to get the ball rolling on erfworld-peace.

    I also find it interesting that there is a carnymancer cooking up a scheme about 50 yards from the arkenhammer. The only thing between the two? Two guys that look like they came straight from a circus.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:06 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    All FAQ units belonged to Banhammer, but Wanda turned. Followed after his capture by Jack also being turned.


    I agree with your argument, though I'm beginning to wonder if Wanda and jack DID turn. Yes, Wanda killed Banhammer, or at least reanimated him, but I wouldn't put it past Banhammer to have put that plan into motion solely to get the ball rolling on erfworld-peace.

    I also find it interesting that there is a carnymancer cooking up a scheme about 50 yards from the arkenhammer. The only thing between the two? Two guys that look like they came straight from a circus.

    When did a Carnymancer enter GK?

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:09 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    I also find it interesting that there is a carnymancer cooking up a scheme about 50 yards from the arkenhammer. The only thing between the two? Two guys that look like they came straight from a circus.
    When did a Carnymancer enter GK?

    He didn't, Oberon is just referring to the actual walking distance (through portal) between Stanley and JoJo.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:28 pm 
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    Kyrt wrote:
    Now...we know its been prophesised that Haffaton would be the agent of Faqs destruction.


    Citation please? I never took this to read that Haffaton was the agent. I took this to mean that Wanda was the agent. I don't remember Marie ever directly saying that Haffaton was the agent. And if she did, I would take that to be her mistakenly assuming that since Wanda was on Haffaton's Side, that Haffaton would be the agent. Remember, just because a Predictamancer says it, doesn't make it true.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:29 pm 
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    That's been debated endlessly, about whether Marie was wrong, or the phrasing is misleading. But Marie does indeed specifically say "Haffaton"

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Kyrt wrote:
    Now...we know its been prophesised that Haffaton would be the agent of Faqs destruction.


    Citation please? I never took this to read that Haffaton was the agent. I took this to mean that Wanda was the agent. I don't remember Marie ever directly saying that Haffaton was the agent. And if she did, I would take that to be her mistakenly assuming that since Wanda was on Haffaton's Side, that Haffaton would be the agent. Remember, just because a Predictamancer says it, doesn't make it true.


    That was my reading of it as well Housellama, based on Marie's reaction to Wanda's name.

    zeroberon wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Really? Really? How can somebody mess up quoting?
    Now now, Oberon, don't be so hard on him... it was clearly an honest mistake, and it's not like we've never misquoted, intentionally or otherwise
    OK, fine, I misquoted, but making up entire conversations about it is pretty lame. Don't you have something better to do?


    No.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:36 pm 
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    At first I :?:'d, and then I :lol:'d

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:47 pm 
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    Re: Marie's Prediction

    This is all from IPTSF 33.
    First, Marie says:
    Quote:
    "Because he knows his Fate,” said Marie. “He will fall, and this coppital will fall. I so Predict it.

    Then she clarifies:
    Quote:
    "I’ve felt for a long time thot we wah safe. I didn’t believe Haffaton would be the agent of our distroction. It still does not feel as if this city will fall very soon. But Predictamancy does motch bettah with events than particulahs. How Fate plays out is up to us. Haffaton could be the one to conquah us. I don’t know.

    It's only when Jillian mentions that Haffaton has a Croakamancer named Firebaugh that Marie changes it to:
    Quote:
    "I would like to amend my Prediction, Your Highness,” she said to the King. “Haffaton will be the agent of your destroction, and of the fall of Faq as well. I think soon."


    What I'm taking away from this is that Marie doesn't count on Jillian taking the Very Hard Way, and managing to either capture or turn Wanda. Marie thinks Wanda will destroy Faq, and she'll be with Haffaton when she does.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:36 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Re: Marie's Prediction

    This is all from IPTSF 33.
    First, Marie says:
    Quote:
    "Because he knows his Fate,” said Marie. “He will fall, and this coppital will fall. I so Predict it.

    Then she clarifies:
    Quote:
    "I’ve felt for a long time thot we wah safe. I didn’t believe Haffaton would be the agent of our distroction. It still does not feel as if this city will fall very soon. But Predictamancy does motch bettah with events than particulahs. How Fate plays out is up to us. Haffaton could be the one to conquah us. I don’t know.

    It's only when Jillian mentions that Haffaton has a Croakamancer named Firebaugh that Marie changes it to:
    Quote:
    "I would like to amend my Prediction, Your Highness,” she said to the King. “Haffaton will be the agent of your destroction, and of the fall of Faq as well. I think soon."


    What I'm taking away from this is that Marie doesn't count on Jillian taking the Very Hard Way, and managing to either capture or turn Wanda. Marie thinks Wanda will destroy Faq, and she'll be with Haffaton when she does.

    Marie knows that Wanda will destroy Faq, but not what Side she is on when she does it. It's not an unreasonable assumption for her to make when she hears of Wanda with Haffaton. What's more likely, a huge Side that's a known enemy causing the destruction of Faq, or Faq being betrayed from the inside by a caster who isn't even part of the Side yet?

    The curse of incomplete information. Predictamancers have talked about this before. Marie is filling in the blanks with her own, not at all unreasonable suppositions. They just happened to be wrong.

    Edit for clarification: I'm agreeing with you completely . Merely expounding on your conclusion a bit.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:23 pm 
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    Something I just noticed… Marie didn't say the magic phrase when she specified that Haffaton would destroy Faq.

    There was no "I Predict it!"

    Maybe unless a Predictamancer actually declares that something is a capital-P Prediction, there's no guarantee of accuracy?

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