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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:19 am 
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Ninjaed me . . . Doubles fade & vanish when croaked - the Slately body didn't, which leads me to believe that the dupe survived, and that the Dittomancer is now acutely aware of the fact that even if they win this battle, as a side they're screwed as soon as the turn ends. Unless one of the 'mancers can figure out a way to keep the DoppelSlately from ceasing to exist when the turn ends. Expect a major Pathos scene if / when the DoppelSlately discovers his true status and that his doom is unavoidable. When he goes down to extract Trem, sees the real Slately's body lying there, and the realization that the dupe didn't fade away can only mean one thing. A story straight out of the old classic 'Twilight Zone'.

Also, given that we're seen that Royals have an innate awareness of the status of the units under their control, Slately should be very acutely aware that the spark which is Tramennis in his consciousness is flickering weakly. Since his objective is to make Trem his Heir, not getting Pierce down there NOW to lay a heal on him seems odd; it SHOULD be one of his primary objectives. It could be the double does not have that awareness, and is unaware that he lacks that awareness . . . But it's potentially a double whammy - without a heal, even if they raise enough Schmuckers from Charlie to make Trem the Heir, it's a wasted effort if both he and DoppelSlately croak at turns end. But the impression I have is that DoppelSlately is suffering from acute Buck fever, and is caught up in the thrill of the hunt to the exclusion of everything else.

However, if they descend to rescue Trem, that puts them in range of Artemis and the GK units that are now holding the Atrium, and I suspect all the casters are pretty low on juice by now. So extraction could get pretty messy, especially if they're grounded when Parson (one of these days) makes it through the Portal, and the GK forces suddenly get both Parson & Wanda's bonuses.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:39 am 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    Doubles fade & vanish when croaked

    That's an assumption. I see no reason why doubles should depop faster than non-doubles when killed.

    Of course it's possible, and it wouldn't be too unusual if they did, but there's just no evidence one way or the other.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:54 am 
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    Unlike Nnelg, I'm not going to say we don't have the evidence, but I am going to ask for it. Can you cite?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:47 am 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    And unlike the killed doubles at Exposition bridge, the corpse Stanley is not yellowish and fading.


    We only have evidence that the dittomancer doubled arrows at the bridge that I'm aware of... not troops.

    If you're referring to this visual: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-23.jpg
    Consider that drawing the bodies also saved Xin a lot of time. You'll find that ranks of living archers are drawn the same way on the same page... as well as living ranks of troops on previous pages.

    If you're thinking that the doubled troops are just drawn indistinct in life or death, the consider the last panel of: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-14.jpg
    which, using that rubric, implies that Jetstone has no original troops at all except its princes and a battle bear or two. Other panels on that page would also then imply that Gobwin Knob is using doubled dwagons.

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:04 pm 
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    Yeah, that's just an artistic technique; there's no real significance to it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:34 pm 
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    You know what would be the biggest "screw you" to Jetstone? All the archons turn to Charlie. Whoops, not enough cash to promote Tram. After all that, after winning the battle? Their side ends. Because screw you, that's why. (Or Parson could order them to turn.) Then GK holds Slately's body, and is the only hope for the sides survival. Checkmate, Royals.


    Last edited by Lamech on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:37 pm 
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    In that case, I'd think Charlie would be willing to give them a loan. But if Rob intends to have Jetstone fall here, that's certainly one way it could happen.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:11 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    mortissimus wrote:
    And unlike the killed doubles at Exposition bridge, the corpse Stanley is not yellowish and fading.


    We only have evidence that the dittomancer doubled arrows at the bridge that I'm aware of... not troops.

    If you're referring to this visual: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-23.jpg
    Consider that drawing the bodies also saved Xin a lot of time. You'll find that ranks of living archers are drawn the same way on the same page... as well as living ranks of troops on previous pages.

    If you're thinking that the doubled troops are just drawn indistinct in life or death, the consider the last panel of: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-14.jpg
    which, using that rubric, implies that Jetstone has no original troops at all except its princes and a battle bear or two. Other panels on that page would also then imply that Gobwin Knob is using doubled dwagons.


    Right you are.

    Then we are back to impressions of Stanley and the Dittomancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:08 pm 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    However, if they descend to rescue Trem, that puts them in range of Artemis and the GK units that are now holding the Atrium...


    I was under the impression that Tram is outside of the garrison proper now from this update... http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-27.jpg
    ... last panel.

    It's never been 100% clear to me where the garrison ends and the "outer walls" begins, though I think a sensible definition for Spacerock would be the Atrium and surrounding walls as the garriso vs. the city streets and the actual outer walls as the outer walls... this fits with GK shattering the ceiling before landing the dwagons (though that also could have just been to get maximum mileage out of the dwagons). It also fits with this narrative in which Tram mentions the city streets as being not within the garrison:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-20.png

    Anyway, since GK is now trapped within the garrison and (I'm thinking) Tram is in the outer walls, I believe the King's group can safely heal up Tram without fear of GK retribution on their own timetable (once the archons are dead).

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:48 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    ..yeah, a quote MADE by the unit who is possibly a double, while the caster who did the doubling is right behind him looking very sad...that's reliable evidence haha :p


    Its a bit more than that.

    We know, barring some form of motion element to the spell, the original Slately is dead. He attacked before Elliott duped him. He got hit and the dupe appeared behind everyone.

    Its possible the spell allows the clone to become real/permanent but the subsequent comments and view of Slately body give a VERy strong impression that isn't the case.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:42 am 
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    Kyrt wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    ..yeah, a quote MADE by the unit who is possibly a double, while the caster who did the doubling is right behind him looking very sad...that's reliable evidence haha :p


    Its a bit more than that.

    We know, barring some form of motion element to the spell, the original Slately is dead. He attacked before Elliott duped him. He got hit and the dupe appeared behind everyone.

    Its possible the spell allows the clone to become real/permanent but the subsequent comments and view of Slately body give a VERy strong impression that isn't the case.

    Looking at the magic chart in book 1 ( http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038a.jpg ) dittomancy doesn't have a motion element. However, neither does Dirtamancy, and we have seen Dirtamancy perform actions that common sense would dictate falls under motion or life (golems, tunnels, etc) so it's possible Dittomancy can create a double and move the original.

    It's also possible that Sizemore's abilities stem from his study of multiple schools or his level, but since we don't know aforementioned Dittomancer's level that's a moot point to pursue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:19 am 
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    Also considering what with there being a level 11 master class thinkamancer who is multiple kinds of mancers, it's now a bit hard to assume that any mancer is just a mancer. Since he's only refered to as a thinkamancer, not a thinkasuperdupermancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:56 pm 
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    Salem wrote:
    Also considering what with there being a level 11 master class thinkamancer who is multiple kinds of mancers, it's now a bit hard to assume that any mancer is just a mancer. Since he's only refered to as a thinkamancer, not a thinkasuperdupermancer.

    Not quite. It's implied that while casters can cross schools (such as with Wanda's thinkamancy/findamancy spells, or Maggie's Foolamancy veil [which could've come from Wanda's private spell stash]) spells need a thinkamancy link to cross schools.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:00 pm 
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    HalfTangible wrote:
    It's also possible that Sizemore's abilities stem from his study of multiple schools.

    Sizemore is TRYING to learn multiple schools...and it is heavily implied that he is failing.

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    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:09 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    HalfTangible wrote:
    It's also possible that Sizemore's abilities stem from his study of multiple schools.

    Sizemore is TRYING to learn multiple schools...and it is heavily implied that he is failing.

    Outright stated, actually. Sure, he can't CAST in those schools, but in one of the text updates near the start of book 2, he also implies that learning to think from the perspectives of other casting schools (in his case, Croakamancy) can advance you into a new class by changing how you perceive what your own discipline can manipulate.

    Also: I'm rereading the book 1 archive and i think one of these crap golems ( http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F053.jpg )is a dalek >.>

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:16 pm 
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    HalfTangible wrote:
    he also implies that learning to think from the perspectives of other casting schools (in his case, Croakamancy) can advance you into a new class by changing how you perceive what your own discipline can manipulate.

    ehhhhhh, I think that's pushing it. What he experienced in the link gave him a new way to perceive terrain, but I wouldn't say he's "thinking like a Croakamancer".
    But to address the issue that brought this up in the first place, I don't think the Motion element is really needed for Sizemore's abilities. He made crap golems before the link-up, and everything about Dirtamancy technically involves "movement". Golems are just a slightly more complicated application, without being true works of "motion"

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:57 pm 
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    HalfTangible wrote:
    Salem wrote:
    Also considering what with there being a level 11 master class thinkamancer who is multiple kinds of mancers, it's now a bit hard to assume that any mancer is just a mancer. Since he's only refered to as a thinkamancer, not a thinkasuperdupermancer.

    Not quite. It's implied that while casters can cross schools (such as with Wanda's thinkamancy/findamancy spells, or Maggie's Foolamancy veil [which could've come from Wanda's private spell stash]) spells need a thinkamancy link to cross schools.

    We've had a couple example's of spells crossing schools without a link. Wanda's and Olive's rhyme-o-mancy enhanced spells, and the archons' DDR which required both foolamancy and thinkamancy. I think its just that a link makes everything much more effective; instead of one caster working a mix of magicks, you get two super-casters working a mix of magicks. Also most casters don't have the ability to use multiple schools of magic except as a scroll. Indeed the only casters we have seen in action (barring minor magic) who can are Wanda, the archons and Olive.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:40 pm 
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    HalfTangible wrote:
    Looking at the magic chart in book 1 ( http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038a.jpg ) dittomancy doesn't have a motion element. However, neither does Dirtamancy, and we have seen Dirtamancy perform actions that common sense would dictate falls under motion or life (golems, tunnels, etc) so it's possible Dittomancy can create a double and move the original.

    It's also possible that Sizemore's abilities stem from his study of multiple schools or his level, but since we don't know aforementioned Dittomancer's level that's a moot point to pursue.



    I don't actually think that level of thinking is necessary. Dirtamancers creates dirt golems. Golems move as part of their function. Its part of what they do. The magic lies in their creation, not in their moving.

    With Slatelys dupe, what do we know?

    First, Elliott didn't want him to enter battle.
    Second, Elliott cast his spell....which may or may not have been rushed, may or may not be complete,,,while the real Slately was engaged in battle.
    Third, the Slately which was involved in that battle got hit, fell and croaked.
    Fourth, Elliotts spell DID create a duplicate.
    Fifth, Elliott looks VERY unhappy when Slately croaks.

    IF Elliotts spell also had an element which swapped the physical location of original and clone, Slately is alive. We don't know if it did but it is possible.
    If it didn't, but Elliotts spell is such that the duplicate becomes real if the original died, then Slately is "alive".

    At this point in time, however, it is impossible to tell the exact nature of the spell Elliott cast. It may have swapped the clone and Slately....but it may not have. The clone may become real if the original dies, but it may not.

    However...Elliotts unhappy look, Slatelys comments and the view showing Slatelys body do imply, under narrative causality and the Laws of Drama, that Slately is dead, this is the clone, and he's about to die when the spell wears off. As they are apparently about to get enough money to promote Tram, this should provide an interesting confrontation when Parson gets to the city. But, without knowing exactly what the spell does, its only conjecture at this point.


    Last edited by Kyrt on Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:54 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    You know what would be the biggest "screw you" to Jetstone? All the archons turn to Charlie. Whoops, not enough cash to promote Tram. After all that, after winning the battle? Their side ends. Because screw you, that's why. (Or Parson could order them to turn.) Then GK holds Slately's body, and is the only hope for the sides survival. Checkmate, Royals.

    Even if the Archons turned, Charlie's bounty is to kill any Decrypted Archon regardless of alignment. Not to mention, if the Archons turned back to Charlie they'd probably surrender, which would make Jetstone eligible for the "over 9000" smuckers Charlie pays for each Archon released.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 83
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:41 pm 
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    HalfTangible wrote:
    Kyrt wrote:
    We know, barring some form of motion element to the spell, the original Slately is dead.

    Looking at the magic chart in book 1 ( http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038a.jpg ) dittomancy doesn't have a motion element. However, neither does Dirtamancy, and we have seen Dirtamancy perform actions that common sense would dictate falls under motion or life (golems, tunnels, etc) so it's possible Dittomancy can create a double and move the original.

    It's also possible that Sizemore's abilities stem from his study of multiple schools or his level, but since we don't know aforementioned Dittomancer's level that's a moot point to pursue.

    Notice how on the same page Parson points out the given magic chart sounds like Aristotelian (incorrect but unchallenged) theories. The Life/Motion/Matter and Erf/Fate/Numbers divides are more of Erfworlders' best effort to organize the different kinds of magic logically; they should be mostly accurate but by no means are they straightjackets.

    Which is also why I think it's possible to cross-cast like that: magic is magic, regardless of what kind of foomancy it is.

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