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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:08 am 
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yuffiek wrote:
since C-Slate doesn't realize he's just a copy.


I wouldn't make that assumption -- the Slately-copy may have been aware of his own death, and decided to conceal the fact from both his own troops, and the enemy. There are historical examples of such deceptions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin#The_Final_Battle_and_Admiral_Yi.27s_Death

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:15 am 
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    It's nice to get all that cleared up, it felt like most of the questions of the last comic were just things that would get resolved in the next, and that's mainly true. From this perspective REGEDIT was most probably Lloyds spell because of dramatic timing and Slately just got plain killed by the Archons (this was even all stuff we were pretty sure happened, funny how certainty changes perspective)

    This also means Ace is probably going to live :D because he's got to transport the archon.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:17 am 
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    Quote:
    Perhaps they had an artifact bonus during tBfGK


    I like this theory as to why the Archons were stronger in TBfGK.
    What if the Arkendish lets Charlie (pressumed to be some sort of Epic lvl Thinkamancer) add a leaderhsip bonus to the Archons from anywhere on Erfworld?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:21 am 
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    Messenger wrote:
    Good news for Jetstone: IIRC, Wanda and the Arkenpliers are far, far away without an easy way to get back.

    The portal is still open.. they have an easy way to get back.

    (The closing portal was Jack's illusion)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:47 am 
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    GJC wrote:
    The force they were up against during TBFGK totalled 3 unipegataurs, 3 riders, 1 archon and a caster.


    You're just counting GK's air-force. Raza's point was that those archons were supposed to be able to capture GK flat out (and were about to). The calculation that said as much was done at night while Ansom was stacked outside of the walls, so the bulk of the fighting hadn't happened yet. That means these archons were good for more than every living (and unliving) GK unit minus Stanley and the dwagons.

    To be fair, the calculation was done before Wanda decrypted the bulk of Jetstone's invasion.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:54 am 
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    Raza wrote:
    Still disappointed in the Archons. With Ossomer's leadership bonus gone, it feels like they should be doing much better. What happened to multicolored special effect disintegration rays, to veils and confounding tricks, to 'total battlespace saturation' where (these exact same) ~30 archons concentrated simultaneous shockamancy fire on a single mounted figure from across a capital airspace with 100% accuracy? These same units supposedly had a nigh-certain probability of capturing GK in TBFK, which had at least as much force left then as the JS flying group has now, and they didn't have a leadership bonus then, either.
    There are still 10 archons left at least. And they have very nearly won the battle. Even if they do still lost they destroyed two of Jetstone's key resources, Ossomer and all the cash the bounties could have granted; in addition GK will gain all of the kings knowledge, so where ever they are bolting too is known. Also if they lose either the Healomancer, or Loyd Jetstone simply loses. And this near victory the archons are pulling out against a level 9 warlord and 4 casters. I would say they are doing pretty okay.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:06 am 
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    pabloiv wrote:
    Quote:
    Perhaps they had an artifact bonus during tBfGK


    I like this theory as to why the Archons were stronger in TBfGK.
    What if the Arkendish lets Charlie (pressumed to be some sort of Epic lvl Thinkamancer) add a leaderhsip bonus to the Archons from anywhere on Erfworld?


    Nope. Remember, Parson used the bracer to calculate the number of Archons needed to capture GK. if they also required a leadership bonus from the dish, he would have needed to know that was possible.

    I don't think they're doing badly. I think that when they lost Wanda that it threw them into disarray since more than one Archon has Leadership and didn't agree on the course of action. Once they started getting their act together, they took out a caster, a level 9 warlord, and the ruler. They're not doing too shabby over all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:12 am 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    Quote:
    Perhaps they had an artifact bonus during tBfGK

    Nope. Remember, Parson used the bracer to calculate the number of Archons needed to capture GK. if they also required a leadership bonus from the dish, he would have needed to know that was possible.

    Not necessarily. The bracer is a magic item/artifact so he could just tell it "x number of Charlie's Archons" and it would do the rest.
    Alternatively, remember that all Command Units (including Parson with his glasses) can see unit stats. So even if he didn't know they were receiving some kind of bonus from Charlie, he'd still see their boosted stats and assume that was the norm for them, since you don't see bonuses, you just see final stats. Recall that this is how Parson's leadership score was deduced, Stanley was able to see how much all unit's stats increased by.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:18 am 
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    People think the Archons are doing badly?

    They're up against a stack with a massive leadership bonus (far greater than that of any GK unit when the Archons were considering assaulting the tower, and remember, Erf is a multiplicative system) and two highly potent and fully prepared combat casters. They have no bonus of their own. In the face of all that, they've now put not one, but two of the highest-level and most important enemy units in the battlespace in the ground through quick thinking and ingenuity.

    Had the Dittomancer not had the juice and presence of mind to duplicate Slately, the Archons would have just won the entire battle for Gobwin Knob. They're doing fine. I would like to see not all of them die, as I quite enjoy the Decrypted Archons as characters, but we'll see.

    I imagine the giant rainbow disintegration rays were spells Charlie gave them, since the Archons said "we have what they paid for. Fortunately, they paid a lot."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:58 am 
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    Sorry, guys, but Slately is alive. Side would have ended if the real one died. So either the duplicate became real (that is consistent with some versions of duplication spells) or the real one did not die.

    So far, have we seen a duplicate turn into Dust?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:06 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Sorry, guys, but Slately is alive. Side would have ended if the real one died. So either the duplicate became real (that is consistent with some versions of duplication spells) or the real one did not die.
    So far, have we seen a duplicate turn into Dust?

    We've never seen a Duplicate before at all, that's part of the problem.
    And it's not as clear cut as "the Side didn't end, so the real one couldn't have died", and the use of the word "real" isn't useful in this context. There are multiple possibilities:
    • The "original" didn't die, the Duplicate did
    • the original died, but the Duplicate is good enough to keep the side going
    • both versions are fully real and either one being alive means the side survives
    And I'm probably leaving out like 2 more possibilities that I can't think of right now. Until this battle is over and we (hopefully) learn more, we won't be able to figure out how exactly Dittomancy works in this kind of situation. That being said however, Lloyd's facial expression very strongly suggests that the original died, and that for some reason, this is a bad thing/cause for concern to Lloyd.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:17 am 
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    Raza wrote:
    Still disappointed in the Archons. With Ossomer's leadership bonus gone, it feels like they should be doing much better. What happened to multicolored special effect disintegration rays, to veils and confounding tricks, to 'total battlespace saturation' where (these exact same) ~30 archons concentrated simultaneous shockamancy fire on a single mounted figure from across a capital airspace with 100% accuracy? These same units supposedly had a nigh-certain probability of capturing GK in TBFK, which had at least as much force left then as the JS flying group has now, and they didn't have a leadership bonus then, either.


    The question is do allied units get a leaderhip bonus? as it could have been coming from Ansom, who was very close. Not to mention while some of them were long range, not all of the shots were. Besides archon's are caster-like, that means they probaly have juice, in that case all they needed to do was take out 6 or so units in the entire turn (and fetch a carpet.) So they had no reason to conserve juice whereas in this fight a) they aren't starting on full reserves and b) they need to take out more than a few uncroaked. Not to mention the only high level target in that engagment survived.

    The level of the archon could also come into it, the three at the lake against the dwagons were really impressive, still there is a mention of paying 'alot' as is mentioned and them only recieving 3 units when every other time archons appear they are in greater numbers also Charlie refers to Joclyn by name which probaly means she is reasonably important. Joclyn and the other two 'angels' died when wanda popped the tower defenses, they were uncroaked but never decrypted, that means the present set are limited to the single colured blue variety.

    As a side thought what if Erfworld has some concept of finishing moves, I mean it's fairly common in video games to have the killing blow be more spectacular. Perhaps theres some natural signamancy that comes in on attacks that are going to kill their foe, making them more impressive.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:31 am 
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    On a semi-related note, I feel Jetstone may actually be making a mistake by capturing an Archon. Knowing Charlie, he's not gonna pay for a captured archon until it's in HIS custody...and given Jetstone's current situation, they're not in much of a position to convey that unit to Charlie. I think he knows Jetstone is toast, and is juts using them to dust as many of his former units as possible before they go out in flames.

    EDIT: Jetstone is the lame runner here. Without Charlie's help, they're dead in the water. He helped them just enough with Kingworld to damage GK, but in the long term, we know he won't bet on them...and he'll shoot them if he has the chance.

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    GJC wrote:
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:42 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    Sorry, guys, but Slately is alive. Side would have ended if the real one died. So either the duplicate became real (that is consistent with some versions of duplication spells) or the real one did not die.
    So far, have we seen a duplicate turn into Dust?

    We've never seen a Duplicate before at all, that's part of the problem.
    And it's not as clear cut as "the Side didn't end, so the real one couldn't have died", and the use of the word "real" isn't useful in this context. There are multiple possibilities:
    • The "original" didn't die, the Duplicate did
    • the original died, but the Duplicate is good enough to keep the side going
    • both versions are fully real and either one being alive means the side survives
    And I'm probably leaving out like 2 more possibilities that I can't think of right now. Until this battle is over and we (hopefully) learn more, we won't be able to figure out how exactly Dittomancy works in this kind of situation. That being said however, Lloyd's facial expression very strongly suggests that the original died, and that for some reason, this is a bad thing/cause for concern to Lloyd.

    This comic very strongly implies that the duplicate is "just like [the original] in every respect", so I think a very likely possibility is that the dupe can do everything the ruler can, such as keep the side alive. Also you did forget the fourth possibility: The original died, the dupe can not keep the side going, Ansom is king. (Which is very, very bad for Jetstone, as Ansom can now disband the offending mounts.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:43 am 
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    I generally prefer to lurk, but I wanted to review, once again, all the possibilities we have for the permanence of duplicates:

    1) Duplicates are permanently permanent, forever. I hope I dont have to explain why this would be OP, but just in case I do, keep in mind that Slately- and his duplicate- are wearing tons of magical artifacts that took Ace and Cubbins many turns to make. If things like this can be duplicated, instantly, permanently, by a single Mancer, then Dittomancers may be the most powerful class.

    2) Duplicates are permanent, but are diminished in some way. It's hard to tell if this is the case, but it's possible that this is balanced simply by duplicates being more squishy, or intellectually diminished. Since this is Slately... we'll never know.

    3) Duplicates are permanent, and serve as an "extra man", as in video games. In other words, you summon a duplicate, and IF the original dies, the duplicate becomes the new "real" unit and things continue as normal. Otherwise, the duplicate just... hangs around, being passive. Kind of like how dream selves work in Homestuck.

    4) Duplicates are temporary, and otherwise work as above. If the original doesnt die, the duplicate ceases to exist when the spells ends. This still would mean that this duplicate is now permanent.

    5) Duplicates are temporary, and decay in a manner similar to undead. Slately may cease to exist in a few turns. For all practical purposes, this would be pretty irrelevant. Whatever happens, it seems unlikely that a Slately, any Slately, is gonna survive this turn.

    6) Duplicates are temporary, and cease to exist immediately at the end of turn. This is what most forum people seem to be assuming. It makes sense and is in keeping with Lloyd's bleak expression in panel one.

    7) Duplicates are temporary, and are directly sustained by Juice. Slately is alive now, but it requires that Lloyd maintain a mental connection with him. If Lloyd is croaked, or runs out of juice, or maybe even leaves the hex... the King is gone, and by extention the rest of the side. This is the worst-case scenario for Jetstone. Assuming the archons know how Dittomancy works (but why should they? no one else seems to understand how various obscure disciplines work), Lloyd just became as much of a juicy target as Slately himself.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:47 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    This comic very strongly implies that the duplicate is "just like [the original] in every respect", so I think a very likely possibility is that the dupe can do everything the ruler can, such as keep the side alive.
    Agreed, which just leaves the question of how long he lasts. Does he have a set time limit? An indefinite life? Does he depend on Lloyd's continued supply of juice to live? Ect.
    Lamech wrote:
    Also you did forget the fourth possibility: The original died, the dupe can not keep the side going, Ansom is king. (Which is very, very bad for Jetstone, as Ansom can now disband the offending mounts.)
    Also possible, but I'm not sure it's likely. Because I feel Jetstone would have changed livery then. But with Ansom being on another side, I'm not sure his heir status to Jetstone still exists. (This has been debated before though, and we have no idea, so no use in bringing that up again)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:10 pm 
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    Raza wrote:
    Still disappointed in the Archons. With Ossomer's leadership bonus gone, it feels like they should be doing much better. What happened to multicolored special effect disintegration rays, to veils and confounding tricks, to 'total battlespace saturation' where (these exact same) ~30 archons concentrated simultaneous shockamancy fire on a single mounted figure from across a capital airspace with 100% accuracy? These same units supposedly had a nigh-certain probability of capturing GK in TBFK, which had at least as much force left then as the JS flying group has now, and they didn't have a leadership bonus then, either.

    Seems this round they're reducing to flying archer infantry with a flashy re-skin. They're missing a lot, doing low damage when they hit, and generally dusting at the slightest touch from inferior units.


    Its been pointed out once but bears emphasizing if people are trying to figure things out without it: those same 30 archons before Cubbins popped his cap could have taken GK, but all 30 archons weren't left after he did. We know from Wanda in book 1 that a caster can fire off all a tower's spell defenses at once, and choose her targets when doing so. From the glorious full page spread that has to be what Cubbins did as well, fired off everything at once in a fully spelled-up tower before it fell, and we can assume he chose his targets as best he could. From the archons' confusion afterwards it sure looks like he hit at least their highest level leadership archons. (I'd even wondered if he got all leadership archons but now I think not.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:17 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    Perhaps they had an artifact bonus during tBfGK - at the time they were still Charlie's units, and he's linked to them in some way.


    That's actually possible, but its apparent that the 'hammer and 'pliers both lend artifact bonuses most strongly when they're in the same hex. (Stanley we don't have numbers for, but his artifact bonus was only worth mentioning in conversation when he was in the hex and stacked. Wanda I think gives only a +1 to all decrypted units on her side, which is less than the the third of leadership that chief warlords grant.) My best wild guess is artifact bonuses all work about the same, not that one is super-secret-special.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:21 pm 
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    Saladman wrote:
    That's actually possible, but its apparent that the 'hammer and 'pliers both lend artifact bonuses most strongly when they're in the same hex.

    Not necessarily true, Wanda lends a huge bonus to the Decrypted because they're created with Croakamancy and she's a Master Class, so she has a huge "leadership" bonus to them the same way she does to uncroaked. I'm not sure there's anything to suggest the 'Pliers apply any bonus at all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:23 pm 
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    Didn't notice that Doombat, thanks for pointing it out. ... Predictomancy: Next page will be from the perspective of Transylvito. Don King will grieve his friend's death and explain how the duplicate works.

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