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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:46 am 
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Kreistor wrote:
[If Slately does die, then GK] first must clear the Garrison of all enemy (including Barbarian/Neutral) units to re-open the portal.

That is is of course assuming that Stanley allows the Capital to change/doesn't disband anyone important for pulling the wool over his eyes for most of this turn hahahaha. He looked REALLY pissed off in that last panel we saw him...Maggie could be in serious danger.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:22 am 
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    I'm wondering if administration of first aid doesn't prevent HP loss, much as it is with many RPG games. If so, Trem may be stabilized at negative hit points, but not dropping to -10 and final checkout. If that's the case, and his troops can't move him (moving him may start the HP drop again), it may be that his presence in the garrison may be the factor that will keep the portal open long enough for Parson to come through (assuming he can get past TGMTTA). While I have no doubt a decrypted Tramennis would be amusing, a live Tramennis who is being exposed to Parson and his otherworldly strategy & tactics would be even more so.

    Also, if Slately sees Trem down and protected, I can see him sending Pierce down to whup a healing on him tout suite, just as a desperation move. And if they've killed enough Archons to make the promised bounty from Charlie (and I have no idea whether this is so or what the mechanism for payment might be), making Trem Heir before going down in a blaze of portly glory. Ah, the possibilities . . .

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:26 am 
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    I can't look for the reference now, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they need to kill EVERY Archon in the airspace to get enough of a bounty for the Heir promotion. (unless they capture a few instead, cus the bounty for that was higher...but Charlie might require delivery before payment, so Jetstone may need to dust instead)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:48 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    I can't look for the reference now, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they need to kill EVERY Archon in the airspace to get enough of a bounty for the Heir promotion. (unless they capture a few instead, cus the bounty for that was higher...but Charlie might require delivery before payment, so Jetstone may need to dust instead)

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-15.jpg

    The full bounty is enough, but that doesn't preclude a lesser bounty being enough. Also I don't like Charlie's use of the word credit. But really Charlie's just screwing with them. He wants to soften GK up before he sends his forces in.

    Okay knowing Rob this turn around will be followed by a down turn for GK next comic, or at least next time we see the air battle.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:56 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Also I don't like Charlie's use of the word credit. But really Charlie's just screwing with them. He wants to soften GK up before he sends his forces in.

    Second Corollary to Rule #17, Betting on neither runner and getting them to shoot each other is the BEST bet? :p

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:52 am 
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    Infidel wrote:
    zuche wrote:
    Azgrut wrote:
    Bloody finally.

    Stupid traitor!


    You can't betray someone that coerces you into service beyond death.


    That never stopped anyone. People would be drafted the old fashioned way into armies, and they would still be treated as a traitor and a coward if they tried to escape. It is only recently that shanghaiing became illegal. 1920s I think. So very recent.


    So what? Rule of law gets to take an airborne carnal interlude here.

    Ossomer was compelled to turn against his side. When he found a way to choose, he returned to his father just as the hat was about to drop. It doesn't matter that he could have been executed for treason by Jetstone before he came back to them, or that he was killed for betraying Wanda in this strip. His loyalty never changed, even if there was a time he was incapable of expressing it. He might as well have just woken up from a coma to find that Wanda had declared him on her side. Correcting her error is not treason, no matter what her agents might think.

    Facts and truth are not always the same thing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:50 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    That is is of course assuming that Stanley allows the Capital to change/doesn't disband anyone important for pulling the wool over his eyes for most of this turn hahahaha. He looked REALLY pissed off in that last panel we saw him...Maggie could be in serious danger.


    It's just Schmuckers. He can change it back right after. Depends on the goal of the switch.

    In this case, I doubt he would change it. City captured and with no real threat from Haggar (GK turn next. with provision that we don't know Haggar's Natural Turn if Jetstone falls or Alliance ends) means no little worry about an already captured City.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:04 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    coyotenose wrote:
    The only reason I can see that the unit who just Croaked is really Ossomer and not a dupe is that it turned to dust. And Lloyd was present at Exposition Bridge, so he has seen what happens to croaked Decrypted. It all comes down to the details of Dittomancy. I'd bet real money that it's a dupe, though.
    I don't believe that Ossomer still lives. But I do agree with your take on dittomancy. If Lloyd had to know what to make the duplicates do, that would be just like foolamancy. I think that the duplicates will act just as the original would, without any direct guidance from Lloyd.


    Yeah, I'm also inclined to think that while Foolamancers control every motion of their creations, Dittomancers just wind them up and let them go. What has me on this trail of thought is two things really.

    First, I don't want to assume yet that simple art errors are responsible for we are and may be seeing on page 78. I'd rather work with the presumption that the discrepancies exist for a reason in-universe, until we see a little more.

    Second, I kind of like the idea that while a Dittomancer doesn't control his dupes per se, that their functionality after being created is related to what he knows when he creates them. There are lots of interesting games to play with the Discipline either way.

    The thought did occur that if the Croaked Ossomer is a dupe, then page 78 is pointless. But it isn't. If Ossomer was a dupe, then a half-dozen Archons have just been massively set up, including the "Friends" Archons who were starting to get scared about their futures and what Charlie might have in store for them in that one text update.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:01 pm 
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    Couldn't the archons see through that kind of trick? Any attempts to hide them would require foolamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:09 am 
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    Coyotenose: Your arguments are convincing. I agree with you that we just saw the duplicate Ossomer die, not the real Ossomer. If, indeed, he was a "duplicate", he would act like Ossomer would including dusting. And it's not Foolamancy, because the duplicate is real, thereby convincing the archons. The only hitch-up I see is the sword - if the duplicate is a duplicate, then both should have the sword.

    Kreistor: Somewhere back there you stated we hadn't seen Tramennis recently, but didn't we just see him in the last panel of this update? Probably I just misremember what you said. Or that it was even you. It's been a week.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:46 am 
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    Why would the duplicate say "going ... home" as it falls to its death? That's pretty harsh on the duplicate, if its really the target as far as it knows. (Though I suppose, from what we've heard about dittomancers and popping units, maybe that is just how it works and it is that powerful.)

    And if it is a duplicate where is the original Ossomer? Dittomancy isn't Foolamancy, so he can't be veiled. At very best he could be physically screened, but he'd still have to be in the airspace. Moreover he does seem to have the bracer on, and the previous page doesn't give a good look at his left hip where his sword would be sheathed.

    So I think Lloyd was likely following the original plan of doubling the unipegs, where there's no trickery needed cause the point is you get both the clones and originals fighting. I will say you made a persuasive case though Coyotenose, I had to go back and look myself to be sure. But I wonder if we aren't just up against the slow update schedule and over-analyzing. So I'm genuinely curious, did this leap out at you at first read or did it take a while?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:54 am 
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    Keighvin1 wrote:
    Squall83, he didn't charge the archons, they charged him. Ossomer never left Slately's side.

    Really? In Panel 2 he is quite far in the back.

    What happened to the face of the right-most archon in panel 7? Did she get burned? It looks like a graphical error though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:27 am 
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    That's the thing, if you track the movement of the archons, they blow through the front screen and then fly across a pretty large empty space, with units on the sides that show on the background of panel 3. Then you see Ossomer in front of Slately, where he remains until he is de-rugged, though the angle and perspective of panel 6 give the illusion of distance.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:03 am 
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    You seriously think Ossomer is a duplicate? Follow this link.

    viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2815&p=78700#p78700

    I'm offering 2:1 odds! If you don't take that, are you really that convinced? What odds would you lay?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:50 pm 
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    Surfal wrote:
    Kreistor: Somewhere back there you stated we hadn't seen Tramennis recently, but didn't we just see him in the last panel of this update? Probably I just misremember what you said. Or that it was even you. It's been a week.


    Overlooked him. I was paying too much attention to the dust. So, yeah, he's right there in Inner Walls.

    Dittomancers are NOT Foolamancers, folks. The Archons would see both Ossomer and duplicate Ossomer, since they do not have a Foolamancer to hide fake Ossomer. Since they see only one getting dusted and no other to attack, then he's dust, people.

    And, Ossomer would not stop fighting and would blow any Foolamancy cast on him, even if you try to retreat to Foolamancy as a secondary Discipline for the Dittomancer. He is NOT of the mindset to be subtle right now, especially after being ordered to kill Archons for cash reward.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:17 pm 
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    I agree with those suggesting that Dittomancy is afoot, if only because Ossomer's death as it stands is too anticlimactic and we've seen whole pages devoted to one trick before. Take a look at the opening panels of the previous strip - we know they originally had nine Unipegataurs, and there are twice that many visible. Lloyd already doubled them, and now he's done something different. If that something wasn't doubling Ossomer, than it was something that will make the Archons regret rushing in like that.

    Also, kudos to Xin for drawing the most terrifying evil gloating smile ever. :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:51 am 
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    Hmm, Ossomer's double, maybe. But isn't kinda thing that more like foolamancy?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:01 am 
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    Hey just realized something: the leadership loss is doubly bad for Jetstone since Ossomer was probably having the dittomancer double his bonus. So the leadership drop will be in the double digits. O_O

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:24 am 
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    I reiterate my bet offer from 5 posts up.

    As rationalist!Beyonce sings: If you thought it, you should've put a prediction on it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 78
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:15 pm 
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    Heh, the replies have made me rethink my theory. Fingers crossed that it's a Dittomancy thing, however the discipline works. I don't actually mind Ossomer Croaking, though I like him, but this doesn't quite feel like the time.

    But man, how tragic would it be if Ossomer Turned back to Jetstone and was then Dusted while Tramennis was unconscious?

    And then a lovely idea occurred to me... What if Lloyd made a dupe of Ossomer, but that WAS the real Ossomer who was Croaked? They might have him around in, um, spirit, for however long the Juice holds out. Imagine Slately and Tramennis talking to him, knowing that he's already dead.

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