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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:52 am 
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BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Infidel wrote:
"I'm not taking orders from a turncoat." or anything like that.


Not even a turncoat. An unholy abomination, a Thing That Should Not Be.


exactly.

No we aren't sock puppets :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:44 am 
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    Yep, but... really, are you or are you not?

    e.g. can Jetstone units actually refuse orders from turned decrypted unit, as long as he is Jetstone again, and a commander by rank?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:58 am 
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    Fabo wrote:
    Yep, but... really, are you or are you not?

    e.g. can Jetstone units actually refuse orders from turned decrypted unit, as long as he is Jetstone again, and a commander by rank?


    Commanders can refuse an order if they believe it goes against the interests of the side. I don't think non-commanders can refuse even then (or maybe they don't think about it at all). As I see it all authority flows from Slately so if he accepts Ossomer back into service (in effect, do not disband him), then Ossomer is a Warlord (and a prince, former CW, former heir and possibly current heir) and is to be obeyed. Besides it is an action-packed situation, the King is about to be attacked and Ossomer flies as the only Warlord in the King's stack. Unless the King says otherwise, I guess all units take their orders as coming from the King.

    Might be interesting discussions afterwards but right now Ossomer has stepped right in and taken charge in a situation that called for someone to do so.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:55 pm 
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    Atomic wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    We need Parson to arrive...

    The biggest question is, can he?
    I believe that it is inevitable. Parson wants to go there, and he usually gets what he wants unless ordered otherwise by Stanley. Yes, Stanley seems to know where Parson is, but that doesn't mean he'll recall him. After all, Parson is CWL, and no matter how low his Leadership it'll help, and this is a very key battle. If GK loses it, they may be done for (no matter Tram's musings to the contrary). I don't see Wanda dying, her fate has not come to any kind of conclusion. Parson is a master of using the tactic needed to acomplish the objective, so he will either fight, bluff, or misdirect his way past the GMWTA and get through the portal to Jetstone.

    All speculation, of course.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:05 pm 
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    I, an extremely infrequent poster, nonetheless compelled to log in and say ..

    ... welcome back! It's nice to see Erfworld getting back on it's feet again!

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:37 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    Fabo wrote:
    Yep, but... really, are you or are you not?

    e.g. can Jetstone units actually refuse orders from turned decrypted unit, as long as he is Jetstone again, and a commander by rank?


    Commanders can refuse an order if they believe it goes against the interests of the side. I don't think non-commanders can refuse even then (or maybe they don't think about it at all). As I see it all authority flows from Slately so if he accepts Ossomer back into service (in effect, do not disband him), then Ossomer is a Warlord (and a prince, former CW, former heir and possibly current heir) and is to be obeyed. Besides it is an action-packed situation, the King is about to be attacked and Ossomer flies as the only Warlord in the King's stack. Unless the King says otherwise, I guess all units take their orders as coming from the King.

    Might be interesting discussions afterwards but right now Ossomer has stepped right in and taken charge in a situation that called for someone to do so.


    The bold alone seems correct. Klog: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg. All units are compelled to obey orders, some* may disobey if orders conflict with higher orders or ruler's interest, and only commanders are affected by Duty, compelling them to exercise initiative in their ruler's interest. Ossomer is a Jetstone commander from the moment he turned back, therefore non-commander Jetstone units, and even lower ranked commanders, will by default obey him.

    You're very right about the "interesting discussions" later. Its an article of faith to Erfworlders that turned units have notoriously low loyalty scores.

    *We could maybe argue whether "some" is exactly equal to "commanders" since that isn't spelled out, but even if a few high-functioning non-commanders can choose between orders, its still going to be rare given the other clear differences between regular units and commanders.

    So yes, free will's just another way it sucks to be a unit in a war-game.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:47 pm 
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    Saladman wrote:
    You're very right about the "interesting discussions" later. Its an article of faith to Erfworlders that turned units have notoriously low loyalty scores.
    Yes, but this situation may be quite unprecedented. The low Loyalty (not a visible score) may have been referring only to units turned to a Side they did not pop under, and not at all to a unit returned to his natural side.

    Notwithstanding the whole "popped again" references...

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    How using capslock wins arguments:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:16 pm 
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    Hmm, I wonder if the doombat in the airspace is going to do anything...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:21 pm 
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    Saladman wrote:
    You're very right about the "interesting discussions" later. Its an article of faith to Erfworlders that turned units have notoriously low loyalty scores.


    Hum in this case, Ossomer turned back to Jetstone out of loyalty for his family and his original side as well as disgust for his new side. I really highly doubt his loyalty is any lower then back when he was alive.

    Now of course, that doesnt mean his father will believe him on that and there will probably be some very interesting discussion after the fighting is over but right now, hes the highest level Warlord they got and they would have had a really hard time winning if he had not turned. So his father really doesnt have any other choice but to accept the situation until he get rid of the archons (which, unless Parson can pull off something good, they should be able to do easely now. They have no commander anymore and they lost half of their group thanks to the last Hat-trick of Cubbins.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:58 pm 
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    querzis wrote:

    Hum in this case, Ossomer turned back to Jetstone out of loyalty for his family and his original side as well as disgust for his new side. I really highly doubt his loyalty is any lower then back when he was alive.


    Well he probably has lots of loyalty and little Loyalty. Big L can force, little L can choose; either one seems to work well enough, though I think that little would work better with the other mental subjugation scores.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:06 am 
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    An Ossomer chooses, a decrypted obeys!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:50 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    querzis wrote:

    Hum in this case, Ossomer turned back to Jetstone out of loyalty for his family and his original side as well as disgust for his new side. I really highly doubt his loyalty is any lower then back when he was alive.


    Well he probably has lots of loyalty and little Loyalty. Big L can force, little L can choose; either one seems to work well enough, though I think that little would work better with the other mental subjugation scores.



    I am more inclined to believe that Ossomer has a very high Loyalty to his side, exactly because he turned. He may feel some pity for other decrypted units, having stood in their shoes, but it does not look like he is above commanding decrypted Archons dusted, rather than, for example, having them captured and turned in to Charlie (which, while probably impossible to do, would help boost the Jetstone treasury quite a bit, although he may not even realize the extent of monetary problems of his side)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:33 am 
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    Normally, turning is a dragging-over process, led by external factors. This was an internal one.

    I'd bet that if loyalty is a stat, he has extremely high value of it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 75
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:56 am 
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    I would guess that a turnamancer would have a honey of a time returning Ossomer to GK, seeing as he just willingly turned back to Jetstone, overcoming—defying, if you will—the titanic power of the pliers.

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