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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:36 pm 
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Kreistor wrote:
Zeku wrote:
I sincerely do not know which one of us is correct, but for the time being, I am not assuming that the universe knows that a conflict will take place, and introduces turn orders as a result. I'm assuming that turn orders are introduced as a consequence of battle being possible.


Possibilities are covered by Mathamancy. Fate by Predictamancy. If you were right, it would be Natural Mathamancy, not Ntaural Predictamancy.

Sorry.


There's no basis at all for this conclusion. We already know how flimsy syntax, and the meaning of words is, in this world.

If a battle is a possibility, then it's possibility is a unavoidable fact, true in 100% of all cases, and provisions must be made for its possible occurrence. This is not a probability, but a definite reality. Or were you trying to imply that turn orders are not assigned by natural predictamancy when battles are possible but not 'fated' to occur? This is not completely unreasonable, but falls under the question already asked, "does natural predictamancy simple partition turn orders, or does it also forsee the inevitability of conflict?'

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She would be spotted by the enemy and allow them an encounter of some sort, all too close to her own territory.


That is hard to argue against, but Im holding out for the possibility that Jillian is just being pessimistic. If I'm wrong, that means that predictamancy is crazy powerful and influential, and drops atomic bombs all over any kind of concealing magic. More specifically, all sides know at the start of every turn about any concealed activity which will later be revealed.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:16 am 
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    I don't understand the reference in the Earl of Tunage's name... Earl Chip Tunage...

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:27 am 
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    No, it isn't that flimsy. It's thematic, and in this case, the theme is very clear. Prediction, not Probability.

    We already know that the system includes the concept of Fate, so the future has some predetermination. Why is it so hard for you to accept that the system can see a few hours into the future, not just thousands of turns?

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:28 am 
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    Azukar wrote:
    I don't understand the reference in the Earl of Tunage's name... Earl Chip Tunage...


    Earl of Otoh. Cheap Tune-age. Music reference.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:53 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    We already know that the system includes the concept of Fate


    Because this (your words, which I quoted) is the part we don't know. Fate's role is something we discuss, we don't know if it actually exists. We don't yet know if predictamancy is real, or simply manipulation by external forces. External manipulation is by far the simplest explanation, because anything else would require a universe that is not alive, and yet still is able to make choices, or unravel causality in incredibly complex ways.

    For the record, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, I'm simply aware that there are logical implications for both possibilities, (predictamancy being real or not, AND this more granular question of whether predictamancy only divides up turns if battle is guaranteed to occur) and making sure those implications are fully understood. One of the implications of predictamancy having full control over turns is that all sides have foreknowledge of events based upon the turn partition that natural predictamancy generates.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:25 am 
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    Zeku wrote:
    More specifically, all sides know at the start of every turn about any concealed activity which will later be revealed.


    I think it's a lot less than that; Jillian can make such sweeping conclusions because FAQ is a tiny side and it's built on secrecy.

    My interpretation is that all that the battlespace info tells her, is that sometime on this turn, someone from her side will share a hex with someone from an un-allied side which goes before them.

    In a typical situation, that's actually nearly no information. Maybe your scout will find some enemy's unit. Maybe an enemy scout will find one of your units. Maybe two scouts will cross paths. In a typical large side, which may have contacts and scouts with different sides next to them, this isn't any sort of news.

    It's only news to FAQ, which so tightly control their borders and their cities that they really want NEVER to be spotted, at all. And it's only because FAQ is surrounded by only one side - Haffaton - that they can conclude that Haffaton is to blame. And Jillian knows that she'll be the one to make contact because the three cities are each covered by their Predictamancer, who would have predicted if contact was to be made at a city.

    This is a lot of speculation, of course, but I think that the ability of the universe to correctly assign battlespaces based on which sides WILL ACTUALLY intersect doesn't give any sides THAT much information, though it is sort of a cute mechanic.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:07 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Possibilities are covered by Mathamancy. Fate by Predictamancy. If you were right, it would be Natural Mathamancy, not Ntaural Predictamancy.


    Mathemancy is about numbers. If you do not get some number how probably it is (at least a rough guess), then it is not Mathamancy.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:15 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    My interpretation is that all that the battlespace info tells her, is that sometime on this turn, someone from her side will share a hex with someone from an un-allied side which goes before them.


    I think the funny part is, that what it actually tells is that no other side shared battlespace with them.
    Remember time is 'relative' in erfworld. If someone decides to enter your hex, they will be early in time and you will come later, otherwise you start at dawn. So it is actually just sides with lower "turn-initiative" being processed first and if you are not effected you do not realise that because of the missing absolute time.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:38 am 
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    onlyme wrote:
    So it is actually just sides with lower "turn-initiative" being processed first and if you are not effected you do not realise that because of the missing absolute time.


    Thinking about that, that opens an interesting question: Assume two sides being too far away to interact physically. Now side A sends a thinkagram while being on-turn to sonone from side B. Assume A comes before B if they encountered, when would that thinkagram arrive? before dawn? after dawn but with B's turn not yet started though there being no encounter possible? or in B's turn?

    I guess against B's turn because otherwise you would get paradoxes if A could reach it but will not without getting the right answer in the thinkagram.

    Sounds like an experiment for Parson to perform, in case they ever get someone they cal talk with without having to distrust them (I'd not believe Charlie there).

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:45 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Maybe the being-in-a-battlespace isn't a particularly good indicator by itself, regardless of whether you go first or second or whatever - all it tells you is that SOMEONE is around. But if you never see who it is, you'll never know whether it was a scout of some side you're in a war with somewhere out in the other half of your empire. It only gives FAQ any useful information because they're such a small side that they know exactly who they might be running in to.


    Or FAQ is just ending its turn instantly? That way a side being afterwards sees its turn starting with dawn while a side being before sees dust instantly when ending turn.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:55 am 
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    Azukar wrote:
    I don't understand the reference in the Earl of Tunage's name... Earl Chip Tunage...

    if you put his last name first you get ETC ^-^
    probably something more meaningful than that... but that's all I got >_>

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:27 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Jillian really is contemptible. This update is a fine example of that fact. The part about stabbing people and honest money... She is vile.
    You must hate the military, with an attitude like that. Erfworld was made for war. Until and unless Parson finds a way to break the system, a Side has only two options: Grow through conquest, or be conquered and die. There doesn't seem to be a point of equilibrium that a Side can hope to attain. FAQ spins the grow through conquest a bit, by hiring out mercenaries to make the smuckers they'd otherwise need to collect as battle spoils or tribute. Or at the very least, FAQ isn't maintaining equilibrium with their three cities, and needs people like Jillian and Hedda in order to survive.

    Holding a person in contempt for providing a desperately needed service to her Side (country)? That's what I find contemptible.
    She may have a lot of character traits one could attack her on, but being eagerly willing to risk her life to bring in the revenues her king needs cannot be one of them. If that job involves stabbing people, well, the job of a soldier is to kill people for their country. And look, even here she prefers to support the underdogs. The fact that this is also advantageous to maintaining FAQs secret doesn't erase the fact that she feels sympathy towards Sides in dire straights and enjoys rescuing them.

    To my knowledge the word 'Soldier' is not a synonym for 'person who thinks stabbing complete strangers to death is the only honest way of earning a living'. I will note that if Faq wasn't supporting all those Warlords and Heavies, the Side's upkeep would be considerably lower.

    Quite, Jillian's perfidious description of those who support their Side, Capital or non-Capital, by mining, farming, fishing, hunting, crafting, casting or negotiating as engaging in dishonest work speaks for itself. As for her raiding habits, she's actively perpetuating the cycle of warfare by propping up failing Sides, preventing wars from ending, prolonging the conflicts, causing more suffering, spreading more grief. And losing a war? It doesn't make a Side virtuous or deserving of aid. Oh and crushing a weak Side would involve fewer battles than saving one, are you surprised she prefers the way of doing things that involves more fighting? Because I'm not. She is after all, a villainous malefactor of the worst sort.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:29 am 
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    Zeku wrote:
    We don't yet know if predictamancy is real


    Yeah, I stopped at this. I have no idea what standard you are using to decide if something is "real". We've met two Predictamnacers. We've seen both of their Predictions come true.We have a full on description of Predictamancy from one of them. We have a description from another class (Clay) that fits it into his own class' view of magic.

    If that's not enough for you, then we're just done. No one can ever meet your standards.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:39 pm 
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    Quote:
    My interpretation is that all that the battlespace info tells her, is that sometime on this turn, someone from her side will share a hex with someone from an un-allied side which goes before them.


    I'd append 'or observe' to that 'share a hex'. If you see them in the next hex over, or two hexes away, you can't have your turns at the same time.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:58 pm 
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    Interesting update, So Jillian captures Wanda who was captured by her enemy's. I see that several members of the RCC 1 are the former pieces of this side and why do I get the feeling that GK was the original capitol or a major part of this empire? So will we see a side split as it grew to big or will some other force cause its downfall, other then Wanda? Will Wanda switch early or at the end? So many questions and a whole new story to tell it.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:32 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    To my knowledge the word 'Soldier' is not a synonym for 'person who thinks stabbing complete strangers to death is the only honest way of earning a living'. I will note that if Faq wasn't supporting all those Warlords and Heavies, the Side's upkeep would be considerably lower.

    Quite, Jillian's perfidious description of those who support their Side, Capital or non-Capital, by mining, farming, fishing, hunting, crafting, casting or negotiating as engaging in dishonest work speaks for itself. As for her raiding habits, she's actively perpetuating the cycle of warfare by propping up failing Sides, preventing wars from ending, prolonging the conflicts, causing more suffering, spreading more grief. And losing a war? It doesn't make a Side virtuous or deserving of aid. Oh and crushing a weak Side would involve fewer battles than saving one, are you surprised she prefers the way of doing things that involves more fighting? Because I'm not. She is after all, a villainous malefactor of the worst sort.


    You aren't putting yourself into their world. Here, yes; someone who wants to get paid for killing other people is generally viewed as unstable and in need of help. In Erfworld, it is the expected function of every unit; the entire purpose of popping units is to defend the side. Faq is an exception in that it has figured a way around the problem, mostly. Jillian's feelings are no more than happiness at fulfilling her intended purpose in the world.

    Does that make the world suck? Somewhat. But that doesn't make Jillian a "villainous malefactor of the worst sort". As to the comment about raiding habits or propping up failing sides: one kingdom cannot change how the world functions. As far as they have to be concerned, the cycle of warfare exists and will always exist. They need to figure out a way to keep their own people as safe as possible within that world. If that means making units in other sides die, then fine; they are not among those they have a duty to protect. Her role in that is to earn Faq the money it needs to have something resembling a defensive force, so that it has a military option if the other protections fail.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:13 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    To my knowledge the word 'Soldier' is not a synonym for 'person who thinks stabbing complete strangers to death is the only honest way of earning a living'.
    As opposed to what? Being a sycophant at the royal court? There's a lot more to be said for Jillian's position than for many others. You attack her, but I'm not hearing anything better from you as a way to earn a living in Erfworld.
    Whispri wrote:
    I will note that if Faq wasn't supporting all those Warlords and Heavies, the Side's upkeep would be considerably lower.
    Jillian's forces must be more than covered by the revenues she brings in, or there would be zero logical reason to use them to make smuckers in the first place. So in the absence of those forces, FAQ would need to contract, and the ability to not contract is the service Jillian and her troop is providing to her country/Side.
    Whispri wrote:
    As for her raiding habits, she's actively perpetuating the cycle of warfare by propping up failing Sides, preventing wars from ending, prolonging the conflicts, causing more suffering, spreading more grief. And losing a war? It doesn't make a Side virtuous or deserving of aid. Oh and crushing a weak Side would involve fewer battles than saving one, are you surprised she prefers the way of doing things that involves more fighting? Because I'm not. She is after all, a villainous malefactor of the worst sort.
    By that logic, anyone who prevents a larger nation from crushing a smaller one is "preventing wars from ending, prolonging the conflicts, causing more suffering, spreading more grief." Really? So now you're arguing that the world should be run by the nation with the ability to militarily conquer all other nations, as this somehow brings about an end to suffering. Hitler would have loved you! Hate to Godwin, but really, you're just too deluded. You're seriously twisting an admirable tendency to prevent genocide into a support for endless war. Remember, any side which is ended has every unit instantly killed. That is genocide. And Jillian prefers to prevent this. And you think it is contemptible. Really?

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:41 pm 
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    Balerion wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    To my knowledge the word 'Soldier' is not a synonym for 'person who thinks stabbing complete strangers to death is the only honest way of earning a living'. I will note that if Faq wasn't supporting all those Warlords and Heavies, the Side's upkeep would be considerably lower.

    Quite, Jillian's perfidious description of those who support their Side, Capital or non-Capital, by mining, farming, fishing, hunting, crafting, casting or negotiating as engaging in dishonest work speaks for itself. As for her raiding habits, she's actively perpetuating the cycle of warfare by propping up failing Sides, preventing wars from ending, prolonging the conflicts, causing more suffering, spreading more grief. And losing a war? It doesn't make a Side virtuous or deserving of aid. Oh and crushing a weak Side would involve fewer battles than saving one, are you surprised she prefers the way of doing things that involves more fighting? Because I'm not. She is after all, a villainous malefactor of the worst sort.


    You aren't putting yourself into their world. Here, yes; someone who wants to get paid for killing other people is generally viewed as unstable and in need of help. In Erfworld, it is the expected function of every unit; the entire purpose of popping units is to defend the side. Faq is an exception in that it has figured a way around the problem, mostly. Jillian's feelings are no more than happiness at fulfilling her intended purpose in the world.

    Does that make the world suck? Somewhat. But that doesn't make Jillian a "villainous malefactor of the worst sort". As to the comment about raiding habits or propping up failing sides: one kingdom cannot change how the world functions. As far as they have to be concerned, the cycle of warfare exists and will always exist. They need to figure out a way to keep their own people as safe as possible within that world. If that means making units in other sides die, then fine; they are not among those they have a duty to protect. Her role in that is to earn Faq the money it needs to have something resembling a defensive force, so that it has a military option if the other protections fail.


    And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Erfworld is pretty damn dark underneath the cutesy trappings....

    (Well, one reason. There's also the fact that there seems to be no concept of art or literature other than the trappings and libraries that pop into being with cities. Units may have some influence over the former (the Glorious Leader iconography of the repopped Gobwin Knob was Sizemore and Maggie's idea for building Stanley's confidence), but there doesn't seem to be any concept of individual creativity -- creation is something the Titans do. Sounds like it would be hell for a writer or artist....)

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:24 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    We've met two Predictamnacers. We've seen both of their Predictions come true.We have a full on description of Predictamancy from one of them. We have a description from another class (Clay) that fits it into his own class' view of magic.


    Why so serious? This is just a fun thing we're talking about. Of course predictamancy can be real in a comic strip.

    It's just not real in the real world, so of course, I'm suspecting that it could work the same way in this comic. Ie: powerful, influential person or god decides, "I'm going to make things turn out a particular way, so I'll make vague statements about it, then pull strings behind the curtain." Even though that's a little more vulgar, it's also more interesting, because it involves drama and intrigue, rather than sparkly fairy magic.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:55 pm 
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    Zeku, this is a world created by a man. You're trying to tell me the author is lying about magic to us.

    Sorry, no, I believe Rob has been honest.

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