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 Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:13 pm 
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Whispri wrote:
And in how many of those books would the reluctantly crowned one's subjects literally keel over and die if the ruler perished, hmm? I'm guessing not many...


Exactly. The sorts of units that would just keel over and die if the ruler perished aren't the sorts of units anybody cares about - they're an extension of the ruler's will if anything, but certainly not real people to be worried about.

Now, Parson may disagree with that, but that's a lot more accurate of a representation of Erfworld morality than actually treating units as if they matter. No, Jillian isn't being any more or less irresponsible than any reluctant ruler. (Heck, from her point of view, the worst thing about being croaked isn't what happens to her kingdom - she never wanted that kingdom anyway - it's the fact that she won't be able to get back at Stanley!)

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:21 pm 
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    Eh; I think that the fact that Charley and his Archeons are such an obvious Earth pop-culture reference definatly points to him being an erfworld native. Also, Charley "being" the arkendish dosn't really make any sense based on what we otherwise know about arkentools; seems much more likely that the arkendish either gives someone thinkamancy powers, or enchances the thinkamancy powers of someone who already has them (it's not really clear which is true with the Arkenpliers and croakamancy, but it's pretty clearly either one or the other). The idea that an arkentool by itself might lead a side or whatever seems pretty much completly off from the way we've seen the Hammer and the Pliers behave. Plus, if an arkentool did have a will and all, it still probably wouldn't be mostly concerned with getting money (the way Charley is), nor would I expect it to understand human nature and be able to manipulate it the way Charley can.

    The fact that Charley is a mercenary, very smart, and no one ever sees him, all seem to be entirely explained and based off of the character in Charley's Angels. We never actually saw what Charley looked like at any point during that show, and I think even his Angels didn't know what he looked like.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:23 pm 
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    jnrhayz wrote:
    As for Charlie's location:

    It says in this update - "no Royal side west or south of me will even take my calls, let alone hire me."

    So it makes sense that he has a central location and there are kingdoms east and north of him.

    Which is a great location for a mercenary.


    Right, too many people have tried to take his description of the "Great Western conflict" to mean he's in the east.
    We really don't know enough about the geography of the kingdoms and the distances involved.

    IMHO a more down to earth speculation is that he could be in a similar situation to FAQ. His kingdom is not one that could stand up to an assault if his enemies knew where he was.
    He may protect his access with Archons, but the GK fight might have taken out a sizeable portion of his forces.
    He may be highly worried that the decwyted Archons may be able to lead the way to where his mountain base is, and describe what the defenses are.
    Stanley with a flight of dragons would be a serious threat. And Parson is another feed to his paranoia.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:43 pm 
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    Yosarian wrote:
    Eh; I think that the fact that Charley and his Archeons are such an obvious Earth pop-culture reference definatly points to him being an erfworld native. Also, Charley "being" the arkendish dosn't really make any sense based on what we otherwise know about arkentools; seems much more likely that the arkendish either gives someone thinkamancy powers, or enchances the thinkamancy powers of someone who already has them (it's not really clear which is true with the Arkenpliers and croakamancy, but it's pretty clearly either one or the other). The idea that an arkentool by itself might lead a side or whatever seems pretty much completly off from the way we've seen the Hammer and the Pliers behave. Plus, if an arkentool did have a will and all, it still probably wouldn't be mostly concerned with getting money (the way Charley is), nor would I expect it to understand human nature and be able to manipulate it the way Charley can.

    The fact that Charley is a mercenary, very smart, and no one ever sees him, all seem to be entirely explained and based off of the character in Charley's Angels. We never actually saw what Charley looked like at any point during that show, and I think even his Angels didn't know what he looked like.


    Interesting point.

    The Arkenhammer is currently attuned with a warrior, and so its powers enhance Stanley's ability to do war -- adding the Rock Out bonus, the whole lightning thing, taming powerful direct combat units (Dwagons), etc.

    The Pliers are attuned to a Croakamancer, so it creates a sort of perfect Croakamancy effect -- much more perfect reanimation than ever previously thought possible.

    That would suggest that Charlie was either a Thinkamancer or someone who played a lot of mind games with people, probably both, even before he became a power in his own right.

    My speculation? Thinkamancer-for-hire who struck it INSANELY lucky with the Arkendish and simply took his mercenary tendencies to the next logical step..

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:08 pm 
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    warriortribble wrote:
    Tyris wrote:
    Charlie is one of those gamers who, in massive multiplayer situations, gets his power and jollies from manipulating the other players. His whole strategy isn't to play the game to beat the player, it's to play the PLAYER to beat the game.
    Out of curiosity, what kind of MMO would allow this kind of strategy? It sounds ruthlessly fun, or ruthlessly painful.

    EVE.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:51 pm 
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    Yosarian wrote:
    Eh; I think that the fact that Charley and his Archeons are such an obvious Earth pop-culture reference definatly points to him being an erfworld native. Also, Charley "being" the arkendish dosn't really make any sense based on what we otherwise know about arkentools; seems much more likely that the arkendish either gives someone thinkamancy powers, or enchances the thinkamancy powers of someone who already has them (it's not really clear which is true with the Arkenpliers and croakamancy, but it's pretty clearly either one or the other).


    Personally, It has been my experience that narrowing everything down to one of two options is more a matter of lack of imagination than an increase in certainty. Charley being a pop-culture reference doesn't in any way dispute Charley being the arkendish since the Arkentools are also from erfworld.

    Possibilities from likely to least likely.

    1. Charley is just a secretive ruler with enhanced thinkamancy powers due to the tool.
    2. Charley is the Arkendish.
    3. Charley is the ruler possessed by the Arkendish.
    4. Charley is a hive mind of a 4 caster link. Linking up four turned the hive into a player.
    5. Charley is from Earth
    6. Charley isn't even here. He's in a coma on Earth but he has a telepathic link with the arkendish.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:12 pm 
    Battle Crest Pins Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter E is for Erfworld Supporter IRC Quote of the Moment Here for the 10th Anniversary
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    Infidel wrote:
    Yosarian wrote:
    Eh; I think that the fact that Charley and his Archeons are such an obvious Earth pop-culture reference definatly points to him being an erfworld native. Also, Charley "being" the arkendish dosn't really make any sense based on what we otherwise know about arkentools; seems much more likely that the arkendish either gives someone thinkamancy powers, or enchances the thinkamancy powers of someone who already has them (it's not really clear which is true with the Arkenpliers and croakamancy, but it's pretty clearly either one or the other).


    Personally, It has been my experience that narrowing everything down to one of two options is more a matter of lack of imagination than an increase in certainty. Charley being a pop-culture reference doesn't in any way dispute Charley being the arkendish since the Arkentools are also from erfworld.

    Possibilities from likely to least likely.

    1. Charley is just a secretive ruler with enhanced thinkamancy powers due to the tool.
    2. Charley is the Arkendish.
    3. Charley is the ruler possessed by the Arkendish.
    4. Charley is a hive mind of a 4 caster link. Linking up four turned the hive into a player.
    5. Charley is from Earth
    6. Charley isn't even here. He's in a coma on Earth but he has a telepathic link with the arkendish.


    I'd switch 4 and 5, but otherwise, yeah, I agree with you there.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:54 pm 
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    Pax wrote:
    the_tick_rules wrote:
    When Charlie said Stanley is telling people that Charlie is on Stan's side to scare them into the coalition he didn't mean the RCC II. Why would he scare people into joining an alliance against him?

    Charlie said that SLATELY was claiming Charlie is Stanley's ally.

    Slately != Stanley.

    Either one would croak you for suggesting otherwise.


    I stand corrected.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:15 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Yosarian wrote:
    Eh; I think that the fact that Charley and his Archeons are such an obvious Earth pop-culture reference definatly points to him being an erfworld native. Also, Charley "being" the arkendish dosn't really make any sense based on what we otherwise know about arkentools; seems much more likely that the arkendish either gives someone thinkamancy powers, or enchances the thinkamancy powers of someone who already has them (it's not really clear which is true with the Arkenpliers and croakamancy, but it's pretty clearly either one or the other).


    Personally, It has been my experience that narrowing everything down to one of two options is more a matter of lack of imagination than an increase in certainty. Charley being a pop-culture reference doesn't in any way dispute Charley being the arkendish since the Arkentools are also from erfworld.


    No, but it lowers the possibility of him being from earth.

    Quote:
    Possibilities from likely to least likely.

    1. Charley is just a secretive ruler with enhanced thinkamancy powers due to the tool.
    2. Charley is the Arkendish.
    3. Charley is the ruler possessed by the Arkendish.
    4. Charley is a hive mind of a 4 caster link. Linking up four turned the hive into a player.
    5. Charley is from Earth
    6. Charley isn't even here. He's in a coma on Earth but he has a telepathic link with the arkendish.


    Neah, I'm pretty sure him "being the arkendish" is by far the least likely thing anyone's come up with. It dosn't make any sense, it's completly at odds with everything we know about arkentools, about warlords, and about sides, and it dosn't fit any of his behavior either.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:34 pm 
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    Quote:
    Neah, I'm pretty sure him "being the arkendish" is by far the least likely thing anyone's come up with. It dosn't make any sense, it's completly at odds with everything we know about arkentools, about warlords, and about sides, and it dosn't fit any of his behavior either.


    Yeah, I mean, it's almost like the Arkentools WANT to be found by those who can attune to them. The hammer needed someone willing to use it in direct combat, so it fell to a warrior type who could put it to use. The Arkenpliers needed a Croakamancer, so they exhibited the ability to annihilate uncroaked... so that anyone who WASN'T a Croakamancer would think to use the untuned pliers to DEFEAT Croaks... thus, luring them closer to plier's ultimate goal.

    If Charley WERE the Arkendish, he (I'll use the male pronoun in this case for ease of use) would be almost totally focused on making friends with and luring in the most manipulative, cunning, unusual, and skilled tactician/strategist he could POSSIBLY find. Someone who stands head and shoulders over most other Erfworlders, someone who can think in ways most can't even conceive of to further exploit the hidden powers of its Thinkamancy applications.

    I can't think of ANYONE who would fit such a description, can you? ;)

    ---

    For the record, I'm one in the "I think Charley's either a really cunning Erfworlder or another Earthling" camp, not in the "He's the dish, duh!" camp. But the latter DO have some good points, and if you think about it logically, what with Arkentools WANTING to be tuned for whatever reason, it wouldn't be too farfetched to see the disk wanting to amplify the most cunning, creative mind it can find.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:58 pm 
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    Yosarian wrote:
    Eh; I think that the fact that Charley and his Archeons are such an obvious Earth pop-culture reference defiantly points to him being an erfworld native.

    When in Rome...
    If I were summoned to and Erf-like world and handed the reigns of a nation, I would be happy to go with the puns theme if I were clever enough to come up with something.
    With a name like Charlie and playing in the manner he does, it's only natural that Charlie's Angels would occur to him.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:16 pm 
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    By the way, Jillian says

    "nobody knows where they get their troops but they've got the Arkenpliers, so possibly..."

    What do you think she was going to suggest? Just the bonus?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:36 pm 
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    Tyris wrote:
    Yeah, I mean, it's almost like the Arkentools WANT to be found by those who can attune to them. The hammer needed someone willing to use it in direct combat, so it fell to a warrior type who could put it to use. The Arkenpliers needed a Croakamancer, so they exhibited the ability to annihilate uncroaked... so that anyone who WASN'T a Croakamancer would think to use the untuned pliers to DEFEAT Croaks... thus, luring them closer to plier's ultimate goal.


    Um, except we never saw the hammer or the pliers leading armies on their own. Or doing anything on their own. They are instruments of fate, but it dosn't mean they actually talk to people, or lead armies.

    Neah, I think that basically every other theory ever proposed makes more sense, including the "Charley is a giant tuna" theory.

    Quote:
    If Charley WERE the Arkendish, he (I'll use the male pronoun in this case for ease of use) would be almost totally focused on making friends with and luring in the most manipulative, cunning, unusual, and skilled tactician/strategist he could POSSIBLY find. Someone who stands head and shoulders over most other Erfworlders, someone who can think in ways most can't even conceive of to further exploit the hidden powers of its Thinkamancy applications.


    Ok, but that dosn't actually explain anything ELSE Charley did. And if you think Charley's main goal in book 1 was to befriend Parson, then most of his actions don't make sense; like, for example, when he backstabbed Parson for money.

    Quote:
    For the record, I'm one in the "I think Charley's either a really cunning Erfworlder or another Earthling" camp, not in the "He's the dish, duh!" camp. But the latter DO have some good points, and if you think about it logically, what with Arkentools WANTING to be tuned for whatever reason, it wouldn't be too farfetched to see the disk wanting to amplify the most cunning, creative mind it can find.



    If Fate had decreed that Parson was to end up with the Arkendish, then it would happen, somehow. But that usually seems to work by "The previous holder suddenly dies while standing in front of Parson, due to coincidence", not the dish raising armies of angels to do...stuff, or whatever.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:37 pm 
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    Pax wrote:
    warriortribble wrote:
    Tyris wrote:
    Charlie is one of those gamers who, in massive multiplayer situations, gets his power and jollies from manipulating the other players. His whole strategy isn't to play the game to beat the player, it's to play the PLAYER to beat the game.
    Out of curiosity, what kind of MMO would allow this kind of strategy? It sounds ruthlessly fun, or ruthlessly painful.

    EVE.

    ninja'd by about 2 pages. :D

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:48 pm 
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    Charlie is a person - he wants Parson's bracer, and how else would he be able to use the mathamancy bracer? He needs an arm to use a bracer...

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:08 pm 
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    frenetic wrote:
    Charlie is a person - he wants Parson's bracer, and how else would he be able to use the mathamancy bracer? He needs an arm to use a bracer...


    No, he just needs somebody with an arm to use the bracer; it doesn't have to be his arm.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:27 am 
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    warriortribble wrote:
    Tyris wrote:
    Charlie is one of those gamers who, in massive multiplayer situations, gets his power and jollies from manipulating the other players. His whole strategy isn't to play the game to beat the player, it's to play the PLAYER to beat the game.
    Out of curiosity, what kind of MMO would allow this kind of strategy? It sounds ruthlessly fun, or ruthlessly painful.



    All of them.

    I've played countless text-based MUDs, as well as Asheron's Call, Everquest, Vendetta Online, EVE, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Online, and World of Warcraft... ...and every single one had players matching the type that Tyris has described.

    From hard-core full-time PvP games (AC's Darktide) to games where there is no combat of any kind at all, not even against NPCs (A Tale in the Desert), there are *always* "play-the-players-not-the-game" folks to be found.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:37 am 
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    Justyn wrote:
    frenetic wrote:
    Charlie is a person - he wants Parson's bracer, and how else would he be able to use the mathamancy bracer? He needs an arm to use a bracer...


    No, he just needs somebody with an arm to use the bracer; it doesn't have to be his arm.


    Not to mention that more than half of what Charlie says may be a pretense anyway.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:41 am 
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    imgran wrote:
    The Arkenhammer is currently attuned with a warrior, and so its powers enhance Stanley's ability to do war -- adding the Rock Out bonus, the whole lightning thing, taming powerful direct combat units (Dwagons), etc.

    The Pliers are attuned to a Croakamancer, so it creates a sort of perfect Croakamancy effect -- much more perfect reanimation than ever previously thought possible.

    That would suggest that Charlie was either a Thinkamancer or someone who played a lot of mind games with people, probably both, even before he became a power in his own right.

    My speculation? Thinkamancer-for-hire who struck it INSANELY lucky with the Arkendish and simply took his mercenary tendencies to the next logical step..


    I was thinking along these lines. The Arkenpliers already showed that it had something to do with uncroaked even when Anson wielded them unattuned, so this might show that the tools can only attune with someone who's natural abilities fit the arkentool. The Pliers powers will manifest to different people in different ways, but it will always be something about uncroaked, and it will always be beneficial to the wielders natural talents. Attuned users would get an even larger benefit because their natural talents match the "theme" of the tool. So Ansom gets a weapon for killing uncroaked because he's the warrior type, and so presumably would other warrior types. If a Foolamancer wielded it, he'd be able to do great illusions of the uncroaked, or maybe a bonus to fool uncroaked with illusions, or something like that.
    Similarly, the Hammer would make anyone a better warrior, but it could only attune with someone who was naturally a warrior. It would give much lower combat bonuses to any unattuned wielder.

    But yeah, this does seem to suggest that Charlie was a Thinkamancer or something of that nature to become attuned to a thinkamancy related arkendish.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 041
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:29 am 
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    nerf-dweller wrote:
    Tyris wrote:
    Slately may have figured him out and spread the lie about him being on the other side to drive another nail in the coffin that contains Charlie's powerbase. .


    Although Slately's conclusion is wrong, that doesn't mean that he's deliberately spreading false information. Apparently survivors from GK's assaults have relayed that they have seen Charlie's Archons fighting under GK colors. With not even Charlie knowing why, noone else has any conceivable reason to not to conclude that Charlie and Stanley are now allied. So Slately is simply telling what he believes to be the true. Despite any denials from Charlie to the contrary. His Archons are undoubtly fighting with GK forces.


    That could be, which I why I thought Charlie might be going down this path. Once it gets out that Jetstone's Ansom is also undoubtedly fighting with GK forces Charlie can point to that and say "See? Archons being there doesn't mean I'm with GK any more then Ansom being there means Jetstone is. But for the right price I can certainly help the RCII with this situation".

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