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 Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:45 pm 
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no upkeep is free on decrypted. and apparantly gk is loaded up with so many upkeep reducing bonuses it seems to be producing schmukers.

gk seems to be becoming the usa. which 350 million people will say whats wrong with that, and 5.6 billion will groan and change the subject. i'm among the latter and have no interest in elaborating.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:19 pm 
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    But unless you elaborate, the few of us that are part of that 350 million (and probably a lot of those in the billion category) are going to be wondering what you mean.

    GK is becomeing the usa...because we have upkeep bonuses that result in producing schmuckers...? Uh......

    Unless you mean something about the usa printing so much money that we're very shortly going to cascade ourselves and those following our example into hyperinflation and the resulting world conflagration that will result in. Which you might mean, but I don't know, and I don't see how that has anything to do with GK or this thread. Since we don't have upkeep bonuses. Or schmuckers.


    On an actually GK related note, when you state that decrypted units have no upkeep, did you actually see that somewhere or is that your opinion? Curious if I missed that.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:51 pm 
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    Yeah, my thoughts exactly... I will admit that I don't pour over everything Erfworld as well as I'd like to, but I don't remember seeing it actually stated that decrypted units have no upkeep.

    Would be sort of a gamebreaker... while Tools of the Titans SHOULD be very powerful, the ability to reanimate all your defeated enemies, have them on YOUR side with a good chunk (if not all) of their intelligence and abilities intact for zero upkeep would be "broken" in the true gaming sense of the word.

    Also... just gotta say, there was no real reason to insert a "USA vs World" comment into the thread. Saying what you said is pretty much like punching somebody lightly in the nose, then stepping back and insisting that you don't want to fight, and they shouldn't throw a punch at you in retaliation. No reason to even HINT at inflammatory, possibly flame-war starting comments if there is really no purpose behind it.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:14 pm 
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    When Parson and Wanda examine Ansom right after he is decrypted, it is mentioned that he has zero upkeep. It seems to be a safe assumption that if a level ten warlord doesn't have an upkeep, then other decrypted units won't either.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:38 pm 
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    Oh, dear, let us bemoan the fact that, at least for the moment, someone is winning.

    By the way, there's always been a clear connection between upkeep and shmuckers; this is clear when Stanley complains about Parson's upkeep.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:41 pm 
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    Justin Miller wrote:
    Also... just gotta say, there was no real reason to insert a "USA vs World" comment into the thread. Saying what you said is pretty much like punching somebody lightly in the nose, then stepping back and insisting that you don't want to fight, and they shouldn't throw a punch at you in retaliation. No reason to even HINT at inflammatory, possibly flame-war starting comments if there is really no purpose behind it.


    it's more about their methods than the upkeep angle. using their schmukers to steamroll anyone who isn't them. assimilate or die. etc etc. some people don't want to be part of gobwin knob. but they don't get a choice. it's more brutal than the earth equivalent. but it's still happening.is that enough to not descend the thread into a political debate/flamewar?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:58 pm 
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    moose o death wrote:
    Justin Miller wrote:
    Also... just gotta say, there was no real reason to insert a "USA vs World" comment into the thread. Saying what you said is pretty much like punching somebody lightly in the nose, then stepping back and insisting that you don't want to fight, and they shouldn't throw a punch at you in retaliation. No reason to even HINT at inflammatory, possibly flame-war starting comments if there is really no purpose behind it.


    it's more about their methods than the upkeep angle. using their schmukers to steamroll anyone who isn't them. assimilate or die. etc etc. some people don't want to be part of gobwin knob. but they don't get a choice. it's more brutal than the earth equivalent. but it's still happening.is that enough to not descend the thread into a political debate/flamewar?


    *Shrugs* I wasn't going to start a flamewar/political debate no matter what, and your points are valid-ish.

    I'm just saying that the offhand "GK is sorta like USA" didn't really ADD much to the thread, and if a rabidly pro-America forum-goer was browsing, he/she probably would have instantly turned this thread into flame city, best to just let such comments go unwritten unless they really serve a point, in my opinion.

    Yes... I did just go back and read the comic... Zero Upkeep on a Level 10 Decrypted Warlord... there has to be some downside they haven't shown yet, because that's broken as all boop.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:15 am 
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    Eh, upkeep so far has been a "handwave" mechanism.

    We know that Parson cost a 1,000 schmukers a turn in upkeep, and thats the only upkeep we know about. We don't know how much many a city produces in income. We don't know many schmuckers the mines below GK are producing. Long story short, unless the authors want to create dramatic tension at a particular point in plot and make upkeep an issue... upkeep will never be an issue.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:32 am 
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    Justin Miller wrote:
    Yes... I did just go back and read the comic... Zero Upkeep on a Level 10 Decrypted Warlord... there has to be some downside they haven't shown yet, because that's broken as all boop.


    I think the primary downside is how hard it is to get one of those; I suspect Erfworld doesn't allow intentional friendly fire, so you can't level a warlord up to 10 (a feat in and of itself) then deliberately croak and decrypt him. You'd have to lose him in battle if he started off one of yours; if he's the enemy, you have to take down an enemy level 10 warlord!

    Plus, I suspect decrypted can't level (so no, you can't just level up a level 1 decrypted warlord), so he'll never be level 11.

    Lastly, we don't know how decrypted are affected by other schools; Ansom may now be immune to healomancy, for example, which could be a major downside for some army builds.

    But clearly, since he's free, in a one on one fight, I'd rather field him than a nondecrypted equivalent any day. Levelling is for the future, I get to handwave getting the guy, and one on one I don't have to worry about healomancy headaches.

    Speaking of healomancy, we know decrypted don't rot, but do we know that they heal on turn start like normal units?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:25 am 
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    quindraco[quote="quindraco wrote:


    Lastly, we don't know how decrypted are affected by other schools; Ansom may now be immune to healomancy, for example, which could be a major downside for some army builds.


    Crap. I hope units can only be decrypted once. Imagine if Wanda could decrypt anyone that was down on a battlefield, no matter how many times they fell......

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:00 am 
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    Justin Miller wrote:
    Yes... I did just go back and read the comic... Zero Upkeep on a Level 10 Decrypted Warlord... there has to be some downside they haven't shown yet, because that's broken as all boop.


    i don't think the arkentools where intended as gamebreakers, i don't think they were meant to be weapons at all. using them is the equivalant of a cheat code, or going in and rewriting the physics of a game.

    they are tools, possibly used by the titans to make the world, then accidentaly left behind or something. maybe left on purpose to be used to restart the game, or remake the game, or install patch 1.5.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:58 am 
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    i agree with all but the mistakenly left behind aspect. only sme units can use them so their is more to it than just "crap i left my pliers on that mountain when i installed it's waterfall"

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:09 am 
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    quindraco wrote:
    Plus, I suspect decrypted can't level (so no, you can't just level up a level 1 decrypted warlord), so he'll never be level 11.


    Uncroaked can level. Stanley complained when Parson pulled out of all the fights in the attack to destroy the siege units. Parson countered that the uncroaked would decay in a few turns anyway, so there was no point in leveling them.

    Quote:
    Lastly, we don't know how decrypted are affected by other schools; Ansom may now be immune to healomancy, for example, which could be a major downside for some army builds.


    That is a good question. In fact, in some games undead are damaged by healing spells.

    That could be the decrypted army's achilles heel.

    Quote:
    Speaking of healomancy, we know decrypted don't rot, but do we know that they heal on turn start like normal units?


    It is probably the same rule as uncroaked. If they don't heal then Ansom isn't going to live very long and I think that would be a big enough detail to be noticed.

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Crap. I hope units can only be decrypted once. Imagine if Wanda could decrypt anyone that was down on a battlefield, no matter how many times they fell......


    Well, it is possible to destroy the bodies of units so they can't be decrypted. Once word got out, anyone attacking GK would be well advised to bring body destroying units to kill their own (and GK's) dead.

    quindraco wrote:
    I think the primary downside is how hard it is to get one of those; I suspect Erfworld doesn't allow intentional friendly fire, so you can't level a warlord up to 10 (a feat in and of itself) then deliberately croak and decrypt him. You'd have to lose him in battle if he started off one of yours; if he's the enemy, you have to take down an enemy level 10 warlord!


    One option would be for GK to have a vassal ally. They could produce units and then attack GK, so that GK outnumbered them by 10-1.

    If unit trading is allowed, GK could even trade its units and then kill them that way.

    It might also be possible to turn a unit into a barbarian (in much the same way that a Ruler can disband a unit).

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:59 am 
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    raphfrk wrote:

    One option would be for GK to have a vassal ally. They could produce units and then attack GK, so that GK outnumbered them by 10-1.

    If unit trading is allowed, GK could even trade its units and then kill them that way.

    It might also be possible to turn a unit into a barbarian (in much the same way that a Ruler can disband a unit).


    Boop... hadn't thought it of it that way at all. Could be some very powerful comics or additional "Fall Updates" (Summer is over, after all!) from the point of view of the soldiers from such an "ally", being ordered to their deaths, just so they can be decrypted the next turn. Imagine popping into existence only to be told that you're going to be killed next turn without even fighting back... and all of it is intentional.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:33 am 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    It might also be possible to turn a unit into a barbarian (in much the same way that a Ruler can disband a unit).

    I think 'barbarian' is the state of being a side without a capital. We haven't seen any evidence that a unit can be released, and it would make no sense whatsoever to turn a unit loose after paying it's upkeep and popping cost, only to have it fight against you - disbanding would be the only logical way of dealing with such a unit.

    Justin Miller wrote:
    Imagine popping into existence only to be told that you're going to be killed next turn without even fighting back... and all of it is intentional.

    I get the impression that allied units don't take orders the same way units on your own side would. It's likely that, if they were ordered to do so, they'd break the alliance instead. The Gobwins broke their alliance and attacked Saline IV, after all.

    The Arkenpliers are not broken - they only have access to units that have already been created. The Arkenpliers make a horrible defensive weapon. You either go on the attack, risking your own hide every time, or you sit and wait, building up just the normal troops you've got access to.

    The Arkenhammer, on the other hand, can be used to pop new dwagons and tame feral dwagons. As Stanley is now demonstrating, this makes a defensive position even better.

    The 'Hammer and the 'Pliers together make a fantastic combination, but then, having two artifacts on one side is bound to be fantastic, no matter what they are.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:01 pm 
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    Remember, the downside of the Arkenpliers is that they don't give the side that is attuned to them a way to pop a hugely powerful flying unit. The Arkendish gets archons, the Arkenhammer gets dwagons. Yes, the Arkenpliers can get those too, but keep in mind you have to have to find and kill those units first.

    If Wanda had been the one to find the Arkenpliers in the wild, she would have had a very small force of Decrypted to start with (probably just the feral guardians of the macguffin, plus any of the troops on her side that cwoaked while defeating same). That would make them seem a lot weaker than an item that could pop dwagons or archons. The only thing that made the Arkenpliers seem broken is that Wanda became attuned to them in a hex with thousands of corpses. That pile included high level warlords, heavies, and a truly mind-boggling stack of over thirty archons. Given that it takes multiple turns to pop a Dwagon, and that Charlie probably wasn't taming wild archons, it is entirely likely that stack may have taken Charlie 60 turns or more to pop.

    But then, it wouldn't be the first time that a strategy game designer has found their creations exploited.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:07 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    raphfrk wrote:
    It might also be possible to turn a unit into a barbarian (in much the same way that a Ruler can disband a unit).

    I think 'barbarian' is the state of being a side without a capital. We haven't seen any evidence that a unit can be released, and it would make no sense whatsoever to turn a unit loose after paying it's upkeep and popping cost, only to have it fight against you - disbanding would be the only logical way of dealing with such a unit.


    Well, it might be how new sides are created. A Ruler decides converts a Royal (and presumably some cities) into a "barbarian" and then the Royal creates a new side.

    Quote:
    The Arkenpliers are not broken - they only have access to units that have already been created. The Arkenpliers make a horrible defensive weapon. You either go on the attack, risking your own hide every time, or you sit and wait, building up just the normal troops you've got access to.

    The Arkenhammer, on the other hand, can be used to pop new dwagons and tame feral dwagons. As Stanley is now demonstrating, this makes a defensive position even better.

    The 'Hammer and the 'Pliers together make a fantastic combination, but then, having two artifacts on one side is bound to be fantastic, no matter what they are.


    That is a good point. If you are not at war the pliers (and croakamancy generally) is much less useful. Also, a retreating side has less chance of capturing corpses.

    Wanda wouldn't have been very useful in Faq. Wanda had a skull hair clip when in Faq, so she was still probably a croakamancer.

    Given that casters can have skills in all domains, I wonder if the caster type title is just honorary. A caster's type is basically just the skill that they are best at.

    Another option would be that the caster's skill level in all other domains is capped at the same level as their primary.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:22 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    I get the impression that allied units don't take orders the same way units on your own side would. It's likely that, if they were ordered to do so, they'd break the alliance instead. The Gobwins broke their alliance and attacked Saline IV, after all.


    I wasn't referring to the "neutral" allied units like the Marbits or Gobwins... I was referring to an "undeclared ally".

    For example... let's say the Kingdom of Faq still existed... they see the writing on the wall, that Lord Stanley is going to conquer all, so they broker an "under the table" deal... Faq isn't officially allied with GK, but then send a stack of units (easily croaked) to GK every turn so that GK can croak and then decrypt them, adding to their forces.

    In return, GK would leave Faq alone and when the rest of the opposition is gone, Faq and GK ally officially. GK gets to run the entire world, except a little tiny hex or three that Faq gets to call their own. End of the conflict. Game over.

    Of course, we all know that Stanley likely wouldn't agree to such an arrangement and would just go on and conquer Faq last... and thus have control of 100% of the world. However, sometimes little nations/sides would choose to believe in the "goodness" and "fair play" of the dominating side when faced with their own destruction, and assume that any agreement would be honored. We have both fictional stories and real life examples to examine that show this behavior.

    Germany's expansion right before WW2... many nations just didn't want to fight, and figured that if they gave into Germany's demands for extra territory, that Germany would be satisfied and everything would be fine after that. Of course... the constantly continued expansion of Germany eventually forced the Allies' hands, and WW2 happened.

    Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. Lando betrays one of his best friends so that the "dominating side" of the Empire would leave him alone. "I'm altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further.", happened.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:42 pm 
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    You know whats come in my mind. lets put parson to macro lol he kills a unit than wanda raise it than he kills it again again billion times :P than become a titan and rule the world all can be hapy after that (escape from the topic :D)

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 036
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:46 pm 
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    yay wrote:
    they are tools, possibly used by the titans to make the world, then accidentaly left behind or something. maybe left on purpose to be used to restart the game, or remake the game, or install patch 1.5.



    Hmm, that's very interesting. I don't know if it's correct -- there seem to be rules for the Arkentools just like everything else -- but it's good out of box thinking.

    I think the tools themselves are just fobs for the powers they represent. Like when you get a game, and it doesn't have a token for some player advantage, you just grab something off your shelf of toys and say "Here, this represents the power. Whoever has this has that power." It's a one of kind token that has to be passed around, something only one player or side can have at a time. A Lego dish, a spiky hammer bit from a miniature, somebody's hobby pliers, etc. They're just fobs.

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