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 Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:55 pm 
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OneHugeTuck wrote:
Well, Stanely's a bit delusional, as we know.

Maybe it's not what you meant, but her attuning doesn't give her any rights to GW itself, though certainly she could use it's power to topple Stanley

Claim, as opposed to ability to depose, is what I was referring to.


I wonder was Parson's comment that the dwagons were loyal to the hammer designed to emphasise that Wanda could be disloyal. Stanley seems to already be thinking it, and it would seem out of character for Parson to stab someone in the back, but he is in theory supposed to be loyal to Stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:00 pm 
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    Regarding Wanda's expected treason:

    Wanda may not be loyal to Stanley, but she's still on Stanley's side.
    According to Klog #9, only Royals actually split to create a new side.
    Unless Wanda is royal, she has to remain obedient to him, else she disbands, and if Stanley believes she is a threat, he can disband her instantly.
    I don't think the threat from Wanda is that she will revolt. I think she's firmly on the GK side.

    My fear for Wanda is that she'll follow her heart rather than use her head.
    She may waste resources to punish or torment Jillian instead of cleanly capturing the city, or stay her hand from attacking to avoid hurting Jillian.
    She may lose her head and attack foolishly when taunted by Jillian, possibly getting captured in the process.

    That's the threat from Wanda as I see it: that she is such a critical component of the GK strategy, but ends up easily neutralized by non-military means, turning the tide against GK at a critical point.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:04 pm 
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    Stanley better start popping some units he can upgrade to warlords, since (I think) he only has twolls and decrypted.

    Oh, and a couple knights. Can the knights be warlords?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:16 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Wanda may not be loyal to Stanley, but she's still on Stanley's side.
    According to Klog #9, only Royals actually split to create a new side.

    It's not as absolute a statement as you would make it sound, in my opinion: "Royal empires split off sometimes into new sides."

    MarbitChow wrote:
    Unless Wanda is royal, she has to remain obedient to him, else she disbands, and if Stanley believes she is a threat, he can disband her instantly.

    We don't know the full story of Wanda's relationship with Stanley or with the GK side." We do know that she is staying with Stanley of her own free will, which suggests that she could somehow change her mind...

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:56 pm 
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    I really enjoyed this update.

    So now we know units get instantly disbanded for disobeying orders. Except for Parson - as long as he doesn't understand the order.

    If Parson can come up with some more good ideas like he did on this turn, he may gain a bit of respect from Stanley. And a bit of respect from Stanley would be a big improvement.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:20 pm 
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    Quote:
    Oh, and a couple knights. Can the knights be warlords?


    The knights are the yellow gobwins, I believe. Seeing as how they are part of the Gobwins, who are natural ally of Gobwin Knob and not actually a part of Gobwin Knob, no, I do not believe they can be upgraded to warlords.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:21 pm 
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    I don't want to like Stanley. He's a piker, literally and figuratively. He's a mediocre human being who lucked into greatness he doesn't deserve. And the fact that one of the Arkenhammer's abilities is rocking out is no strength of Stanley's; it's all the hardware, none of the human.

    But with all that said, I can no longer find it in me to completely dislike a guy who can rock out like that. Stanley has cool points from this update which no amount of uncool points can take off the board.

    By the way- just because Wanda can't (we hypothesize) start a new side, doesn't mean she can't take her decrypted over to a new side that offers her a better deal. The loyalty stat has to have meaning for non-royals too. Of course, she may not have any desire to; Stanley's letting her do everything she's always wanted to do... but Stanley has to be aware that the more she does the more he has to lose in a single stroke if her loyalty fails. And we already know that GK is Wanda's third side so far, with loyalty drops after each change...

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:23 pm 
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    Dwagon_Cwoaker wrote:
    The knights are the yellow gobwins, I believe. Seeing as how they are part of the Gobwins, who are natural ally of Gobwin Knob and not actually a part of Gobwin Knob, no, I do not believe they can be upgraded to warlords.

    We've seen what is presumably a marbit warlord, so there's at least some reason to believe that there can be gobwin warlords and by extension hobgowin warlords.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:08 am 
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    Guurzak wrote:
    And we already know that GK is Wanda's third side so far, with loyalty drops after each change...


    third side? i thought it was Faq to Gobwin Knob? did i miss something?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:11 am 
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    The one thing that both Stanley and Wanda have in common with attunement to the 'chosen' tool is that they have or had visions either before or after obtaining said tool. Wanda knew she was going to gain a tool, didn't know which one. Stanley claims to know 'things' that most of the other units have no clue about (Titanic mandate) the one key sentence that Wanda stated in this whole situation was that fate was involved. Jillian is probably the one to attune to the last one given the balance so far displayed in the writings.

    Notice that the number turns have jumped from 4 to 8 in this update and Stanley ended the turn and not one mention of if the 'conquering army' was completed with their actions. Stanley took control and ended it, just as Parson was always afraid of during the siege. This validates why Wanda had Parson make his move with the dwagons donut of doom prior to Stanley finding out and suddenly ending turn before the order was initiated. Good thing you can not end a turn in the middle of 'hostile action' or that could get quite messy. The strat of attacking the moment you get a chance could set up for a ambush of epic proportions that even the biggest army couldn't survive.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:35 am 
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    @yay
    Guurzak's probably referring to Wanda's bio on GITP. It says she's "from the lost Croatan tribe" which people have interpreted as another faction she used to belong to.

    Is Maggie a master class thinkamancer? If so, is it possible to use her thinkamancy to make certain units more loyal to Stanley?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:54 am 
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    random_guy wrote:
    @yay
    Guurzak's probably referring to Wanda's bio on GITP. It says she's "from the lost Croatan tribe" which people have interpreted as another faction she used to belong to.


    I always interpreted that as the tribe that was holding Faq.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:12 am 
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    Quote:
    third side? i thought it was Faq to Gobwin Knob? did i miss something?


    Depends on how you count King Saline IV.

    Saline IV was still King when Stanley sacked Faq. Wanda joined Stanley, but would have counted as a unit under King Saline IV for the purposes of a general overview of His Majesty's forces.

    "third side" is a fair description.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:04 am 
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    Even if Wanda can't start her own side, not being a Royal, I imagine that she can still defect to another, already existing side if her Loyalty is low enough. And if Jillian should decide to become Queen of Faq, well...

    - Doug S.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:05 am 
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    Do I remember right thinking that barbarian warlords can start their own sides...if they come across ruins or some such? maybe that was speculation on the wiki.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:13 am 
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    So im not totaly sure but im pretty sure a side can't be started by a caster. They are powerful units, and follow rules like a warlord, but i dont think they can make there own side and control more then say just golems or uncroked/decyrpted. But i must point out Ansom is a Chief Warlord and totaly infatuated with Wanda. Perhaps if there was a split he would be in charge, but only on paper as it were, while Wanda really calls the shots telling him what to do. I think thatd be a very interesting scene, Wanda/Ansom vs. Parson/Stanley. Not to mention perhaps a third side of Jillian/Vinny vs them all, Jillian mad at Wanda for turning her boyfriend, Vinny having to face his old buddy, and all of them fighting Stanley. All in all there seems to be many sides forming all rather powerful making for a bunch of good fight scenes and tension. :D

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:31 am 
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    yay wrote:
    Guurzak wrote:
    And we already know that GK is Wanda's third side so far, with loyalty drops after each change...


    third side? i thought it was Faq to Gobwin Knob? did i miss something?


    There#s more than that. It is never explicitly stated that Wanda was popped in Faq. Twice the term "served" is used, so it is possible that she originally was from somewhere else.

    raphfrk wrote:
    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    On a side note, Stanley should order a bunch of new warlords and send them levelling with the dwagons. A number of level 2 or 3s that can lead dwagon stacks increases the power of his loyal forces and they can rule the new cities. A level 5 in his capital would be a good replacement for Ansom, just in case. And some new hobgobwins with dance fight abilities would be a good thing, too.


    Right, unlike Archons (and to a less extent decrypted), dwagons aren't self leading. That is a weakness of the hammer's special unit.

    Stanley managed to tame 2 dwagons in the turn. Thus he would need one warlord every 4 turns or so, assuming he is aiming for 8 unit stacks.

    However, for leadership purposes, he could get away with fewer than that. The donut attack only used 3 warlords.

    Popped units would have to do something to level up, they probably can only be popped as level 1. The dwagons could be used to cycle them to the front. It would depend on how exp works. Units might gain exp just by being present when a city is taken. OTOH, moving a level 1 unit with a dwagon seems like overkill.

    Another advantage of having some warlords is that it allows the dwagons to be used as scouts to cover more hexes. That assumes that the archons can't cover all the hexes that Stanley can reach and return.


    I was thinking of 1 warlord + 3 knights + 4 dwagons a stack. That way he can produce every 3 days a new stack, train them in dance fight and then send them out to level. With the direct order to watch out for their live and ignore stupid orders from Wanda "decrypt-'em-all" Firebough or her toy Ansom. In the same hex as Asnom they get a formidable boost to their attack; and maybe additional bonus when they wear special armour and magic weapons like manpower had.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:37 am 
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    I'm pretty sure that a lot of the speculation here is provoked by recognition that the story is devolving into David Eddings' Syndrome. You know, where the protagonist's side is too powerful compared to the antagonist's, draining dramatic tension and causing the story to devolve into a glorified piece of fanfiction where all the favorite characters go on picnic together and hang out. With two attuned arkentools, a warlord capable of brilliant strategic maneuvers (and getting that extra "player character" bonus), and what is probably the strongest defensive position, Stanley and Parson appear to be better poised than any other faction or even combination of factions in the world. And now, not only are Parson and Stanley getting along but they are getting bonus dwagons! Oh golly gee, where will the drama come from now!

    Well the most obvious and most discussed source for renewed dramatic tension would be Stanley's side falling apart, which could happen in a number of ways. Wanda could perhaps engineer a coup if her loyalty dropped sufficiently low -- after all she was the one that prompted Stanley to attack, and consequently to destroy, FAQ. Stanley could get croaked, after which Parson says "the whole side would go Barbarian, which was as good as being conquered." Parson might find a way around duty, either by denying the rules of Erfworld through the same unique abilities that allowed him to swear, abusing Thinkamancy, turning barbarian, or some other less apparent mechanic.

    But another source of renewed dramatic tension would come from a more pronounced shift in perspective. Like in Iain M. Banks Culture novels, the conflict can remain interesting if perspective shifts away from the side with all the power and a new protagonist is found among one of the other factions -- even if that side ultimately loses. E.g., telling the story of war against a belligerent Stanley/GK faction from the point of view of Jillian and King Don as Wanda's army swells and they get increasingly desperate. Sure, we've seen Jillian and Don King in action, but the story has not yet been told through their eyes the way it has through Parson's. Here's a storytelling technique that I have never seen in webcomics, and rarely in genre literature, and if this is what we will be getting in Book 2 then hats off in advance.

    Ronfar wrote:
    Even if Wanda can't start her own side, not being a Royal, I imagine that she can still defect to another, already existing side if her Loyalty is low enough. And if Jillian should decide to become Queen of Faq, well...


    Ansom may still count as a Royal despite being decrypted. What a twist!

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:41 am 
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    Quote:
    I was thinking of 1 warlord + 3 knights + 4 dwagons a stack. That way he can produce every 3 days a new stack, train them in dance fight and then send them out to level. With the direct order to watch out for their live and ignore stupid orders from Wanda "decrypt-'em-all" Firebough or her toy Ansom. In the same hex as Asnom they get a formidable boost to their attack; and maybe additional bonus when they wear special armour and magic weapons like manpower had.


    that seems like a total waste of resources, the stack bonus stops at 8, there isn't anything to lose or gain in making 8 unit stacks to run around levelling. just put all the dwagons in onestack and spam every target the archons find. zero chance of losing, all dwagons earn exp. having less srack bonus might earn them more experience all things
    considered

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Update - 035
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:25 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Sokrotes wrote:
    But i must point out Ansom is a Chief Warlord and totaly infatuated with Wanda. Perhaps if there was a split he would be in charge, but only on paper as it were, while Wanda really calls the shots telling him what to do.


    That is an interesting idea. Ansom counts as a Royal, so assuming Royals are required for side creation, he should be able to do it. It would be an improvement from Wanda's perspective, as Ansom would be easier to manipulate than Stanley.

    Presumably, the mechanism for new side creation must have some way of shielding units from being disbanded. Otherwise, the coup could be ended very quickly.

    The other option is that Royal splits were voluntary. A Ruler decided to give some cities to an Heir and then promote him to Ruler of those cities.

    However, there seems little reason for them to do that.

    The process could be something like a Royal challenges the Ruler and then each city does a loyalty check. If the city that the Royal is in switches, then the Royal becomes Ruler of that city and all other cities where he won the loyalty check vs the old Ruler. The Capital is probably immune to being switched, so after a switch, the old Ruler would still have 1 city. If the city the Royal is in fails to switch, then the Royal is either disbanded directly or is attacked by the units in the city.

    In that context, I wonder if Caesar is a threat to Don King. He is said to have the respect of lots of the units in the side.

    Quote:
    I think thatd be a very interesting scene, Wanda/Ansom vs. Parson/Stanley. Not to mention perhaps a third side of Jillian/Vinny vs them all, Jillian mad at Wanda for turning her boyfriend, Vinny having to face his old buddy, and all of them fighting Stanley. All in all there seems to be many sides forming all rather powerful making for a bunch of good fight scenes and tension. :D


    Yeah, could be interesting. However, Parson "changing the world" kind of requires that he is going to forge a new order. Maybe he establishes a new coalition that has peace as its objective (probably involving stopping Wanda).

    Wanda's fate was to act as the reason for the other sides to work together.


    Last edited by raphfrk on Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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