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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:22 am 
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oslecamo2_temp wrote:
Findmancers? What findmancers? They're never mentioned here.

These findamancers:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F005.jpg

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:38 am 
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    Took me a minute to realize that was a groundhog, lol.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:10 am 
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    I am not excited about this storyline development. A bunch of characters with no development just stepped into the story very late into the game and want to influence the plot in a major way.

    I'm also of the opinion that Janis is currently the only character that seems to be acting at all rationally at the moment. Sizemore isn't offering Parson his trusted viewpoint on the situation. Parson isn't asking the crucial questions he should be asking by now. (Questions like "Why do you want to help me?") The Marie and the predictamancers' plan for world peace seems to be nothing more than just another 'tear everything down and rebuild' type of plan. In the process, they are seriously jeopardizing the reputation of the one place in Erfworld that looks like it could be called neutral territory. As such, I'm left with several questions / angry rants: Just what the hell do these people think they are doing? Are they so discontent with the world that they are willing to just throw it away and hope for a better one next time? Just what did the world do to them to earn their ire like this? And what guarantee do they have that the world that they create will somehow be better?

    Also, this type of open Magic Kingdom warfare that the predictamancers seem to be planning looks like the sort of thing that could get them all executed. Could Jojo simply have been sent by a yet to be seen predictamancer, possibly an unshamed one who still has a side, because they don't want the rest of the predicamancers to croak? Could that predictamancer be one of the ones just introduced?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:12 am 
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    For those wondering about top hat caster: Of course a predictamancer from Gobbler's Knob would come to the defense!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:33 am 
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    I agree with Swodaems main point if not his specific arguments.

    Swodaems wrote:
    A bunch of characters with no development just stepped into the story very late into the game and want to influence the plot in a major way.


    Yes, these are new characters, but these characters might as well just be faceless nameless members of a mob. They only aren't since Erfworld never passes up an opportunity to be referential (though 100% of these went over my head). The important detail is just that two sides are gathering in force to wage what is being portrayed as the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny.

    My beef is that, like the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny, this battle is being fought over a non-issue. People have yet to give compelling reasons why this battle matters. What is wrong with Parson going through? Thinkamancers are overruling Maggie and risking a conflict because "oh, we changed our minds and we want to speak with him now rather than later." What is wrong with Parson staying to chat with the thinkamancers in their temple? Predictamancers aren't showing their cards on that one, assuming they have any. What is wrong with Parson going back to GK? He's got mucho troops and leadership already in JS and a thinkamancer in GK to boss them around with. None of these options seem particularly bad for any of the three sides.

    I've already posted at length on how I don't understand Parson's need to be in JS right now. I hope he has a reason he's not saying.

    This would be an awesome scene for me if I understood the characters motivations. However, I don't.

    Swodaems wrote:
    Are they so discontent with the world that they are willing to just throw it away and hope for a better one next time? Just what did the world do to them to earn their ire like this?


    Most of the permanent residents of TMK have supposedly lost their sides, and therefore have some reason to be bitter. However, why they would want to start breaking the world with TMK is beyond me. It seems it would be easier just to help GK's world conquest or Wanda's unite the tools plan.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:39 am 
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    Swodaems wrote:
    I'm also of the opinion that Janis is currently the only character that seems to be acting at all rationally at the moment. Sizemore isn't offering Parson his trusted viewpoint on the situation. Parson isn't asking the crucial questions he should be asking by now. (Questions like "Why do you want to help me?")


    I'm not sure I'm convinced Parson's totally with Marie at this point. I think he may have just caught a glimpse of what exactly she's all about - "That helps a lot, actually. Thanks, Marie." is open to interpretation, IMHO.

    I think he does realize that the Thinkamancers stand in his way, and that Marie's providing options that help him circumvent that. But I think also, as a previous poster pointed out, the super warlord move here would then be to present the Thinkamancers with unarguable evidence of their predestined success in a fight, and then just stroll on past. How likely are the Thinkamancers to accept a civil war knowing it was futile to try to resist him from passing through?

    Which is probably the calculation he's running on the bracer right now...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:21 am 
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    Swodaems wrote:
    I am not excited about this storyline development. A bunch of characters with no development just stepped into the story very late into the game and want to influence the plot in a major way.


    The same unknown characters that began the plot. We have known that they existed for some time, just haven't had their faces.

    Quote:
    I'm also of the opinion that Janis is currently the only character that seems to be acting at all rationally at the moment.


    There is more than one form of rationality. This comes down to a matter of priority. Marie's priority is Peace for the World. Janis' is Peace in her immediate vicinity. If Parson is held by the Thinkamancers, they may implant long term Suggestions that prevent her long term goals. To her, it is vital that Parson act without manipulation. Why? It's obvious.

    Because she Has PrRedicted it.

    Quote:
    Sizemore isn't offering Parson his trusted viewpoint on the situation.


    Sizmoe has been a source of knowledge, not advice, except on a personal level in how to deal with individuals. Sizemore does not understand strategy at Parson's level.

    Quote:
    Parson isn't asking the crucial questions he should be asking by now. (Questions like "Why do you want to help me?") The Marie and the predictamancers' plan for world peace seems to be nothing more than just another 'tear everything down and rebuild' type of plan.


    Has Parson actually heard any of that from Marie? All he knows about Marie is that she is a Predictamancer, she helped him wiht Jojo, and that she knows things... and that she is helping him with his goal without question or manipulation. That their goals align is not a sign that Parson should doubt his own analysis of his own goals. While he should not assume that she is his ally over the long term, there is no danger in the immediate term, or else she would have betrayed him to the immediate threat of the Thinkamancers.

    Quote:
    In the process, they are seriously jeopardizing the reputation of the one place in Erfworld that looks like it could be called neutral territory.


    So he is breaking the world? PLease re-read Marie and Sizemore's conversation at the end of Book 1.

    Quote:
    As such, I'm left with several questions / angry rants: Just what the hell do these people think they are doing?


    Breaking the world. ALL of it.

    Quote:
    Are they so discontent with the world that they are willing to just throw it away and hope for a better one next time?


    I can imagine no world worse than one that suffers Eternal War.

    Quote:
    Just what did the world do to them to earn their ire like this?


    Force them to suffer permanent PTSD? Force them to kill at others' instructions, regardless of their personal philosophy. Force them to murder just to survive? Create a world from which there is no retirement for services rendered, only oblivion?

    Quote:
    And what guarantee do they have that the world that they create will somehow be better?


    While breaking the world is harsh, it does not imply that the world will disintegrate. Marie seeks a method of making this world Peaceful, not re-created.

    Broken bones mend, tougher... better... than before. A broken world can mend, potentially better than before.

    Quote:
    Also, this type of open Magic Kingdom warfare that the predictamancers seem to be planning looks like the sort of thing that could get them all executed.


    By whom? While the Predictamancers are about to interfere with the Thinkamancer;s arbitrary claim to Parson, all other schools could make similar demands. The Predictamancers can contend that they are preventing the Thinkamancers' arbitrary demand that they are solely responsible for Parson, and as such, fighting a move by the Thinkamancers to enforce its will on all schools. They can argue that Parson's punishment, as an exceptional individual, should be the choice of all schools, not one.

    That's outside the Conspiracy. Inside, it comes to this: W have predicted that your insterference with Parson will not have the result that you desire. Your doubts are unfounded, because we have Predicted it. We needed to act against you to ensure your goals are achieved. Please consult wiht those that know the future before attempting to enforce your will upon it.

    pquote]Could Jojo simply have been sent by a yet to be seen predictamancer, possibly an unshamed one who still has a side, because they don't want the rest of the predicamancers to croak? Could that predictamancer be one of the ones just introduced?[/quote]

    It's also possible he got his hands on a powerful Predictamancy scroll.

    Or that he just hoped that Wanda or Parson would go through sometime in the future, and was hanging out there for weeks.Carny's read people... profiling, if you will, to determine who is a potential mark. When he saw Sizemore leave and return depressed, he could fvery well have decided something extraordinary was about to happen. While he may not have known Parson was coming through, it may have been Wanda, he could choose to approach or not based on what happened, ensuring he used the correct tactic on the correct person.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:43 am 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Findmancers? What findmancers?


    These findamancers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:59 am 
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    What I've been wondering is just what sort of attack would come from a Predictomancer? Can they make things come true, sort of like forcing their will on the future? I can just imagine the whole stack of Predictamancers pulling a stunt similar to what Janice did to Jojo. Something like zapping them with an "It Will Happen" spell and the Thinkamancers are forced to comply?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:42 pm 
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    And the caster war begins, awesome. I dunno what kinda offense they would have. But aside from mental stuns it's hard to think of what a thinkamancer could do. Guess we're about to find out.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:25 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Excellent! The plot advances, and we have new knowledge. Predictamancers can predict battlefield actions in order to alter the outcome. This tells us two things:
    1) They have a combat use
    2) Their predictions are not absolute and can be influenced


    I think you're right on both counts, in particular, #1 is given after this update.
    On the other hand #2 is not necessarily true. It's likely enough that it's probably the case but I don't want to ignore an alternative possibility here.

    It could be that predictamancers share the same fatalistic viewpoint as Wanda but more directly so with being able to see the future. They may have seen themselves partake in this battle and win and are participating (whether or not they actually want to) because they know they will.

    In which case all we could really say is that predictamancers can predict battlefield actions. So while they would still have a combat use for those who can't see the future, we don't know for certain whether or not the outcomes of those actions are alterable.

    I think the best way to confirm this one way or the other depends on what predictamancers actually "see" when they peer into the future. For each event they see do they see one certain outcome or multiple possible outcomes?

    I'd prefer it to be the latter even if just because it's less depressing.

    So assuming the latter what separates predictamancers from Parson's bracer? Parson's bracer can predict possible outcomes with a degree of probability. Do predictamancers work this way? Or is more sophisticated than that?

    Do predictamancers instead see possible outcomes and also see the decision trees that lead to those outcomes?
    That seems most likely to me which would then support your conclusions Kreistor.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:45 pm 
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    As usual, Rob's command of subtle dialogue is brilliant. Notice how Janis switches from subjunctive to future tense in the last panel.

    "Would we?"
    "... Marie!"
    "Will we?"

    Imagine hanging around with a predictamancer. It would probably take some getting used to.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:27 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    I agree with Swodaems main point if not his specific arguments.


    And while I don't see a big resemblance between effataigus' and Swodaems' points, I'd throw my agreement 2cents for effataigus, who is spot on.

    A big part of that is me being contrarian, but ... I just don't get why stringing references together is supposed to make an awesome page, and garner all that *squee* from the fanbase. Don't get me wrong, Erfworld is great for many reasons, but the ref-*squee* is just something I can't get behind. You wouldn't see me *squee* even if Blake, Borges and Feynman waltzed together towards some faction in the battle.

    Well ok, I might *squee* then. But anyway.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:46 pm 
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    I think that the Thinkamancer's stated motives are not the same as their real motives. They may say that they need to talk to Penson, and they want to bring down Charlie, but I think that, like Janis, they're terrified of war coming to their home, and are coming up with any excuse to prevent it. Parson stepping foot over that threshold - using the MK to invade another side's capital, even with a single unit - destroys their Swiss-like neutrality. It's not a non-issue; it's just that the stated issue isn't the same as the real issue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:00 pm 
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    We do not have much of an idea of the purposes of either side. One Xanados pile-up coming up.

    I think this is a part of the story that will work better as a book. To keep wondering about what the different sides are really doing works well when one can turn the pages at will. Though it detracts that the one side we have an idea of - that would be Parson - seems to be doing something rather pointless as his troops appear to be winning easily without him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:08 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    One Xanados pile-up coming up.


    A Xanados pile-up?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:18 pm 
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    Angband wrote:
    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Findmancers? What findmancers?


    These findamancers.


    Because Wanda clearly is a beacon of honestity and she never before lied to her rulers in order to advance her own agenda. :roll:

    Anyway things are geting quite messy. Predictmancers vs thinkmancers, doesn't matter who wins,the Magic Kingdom will be greatly destablized. And since every side seems to have a connection to the Magic Kingdom, that destabilization will spread when news of a side that sends their warlords and mancers to assault other's capitals spread.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:39 pm 
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    kagato23 wrote:
    Image

    For those wondering about top hat caster: Of course a predictamancer from Gobbler's Knob would come to the defense!


    Hmm, let's see if i can [img="http://www.groundhog.org/uploads/pics/fullgroup.jpg"]fix that[/img]

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:44 pm 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Because Wanda clearly is a beacon of honestity


    Freudian slip? :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 71
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:44 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    mortissimus wrote:
    One Xanados pile-up coming up.


    A Xanados pile-up?


    Indeed, and let it be known that I predicted it.

    Xanatos pile-ups being so mundane that they even lost their own article on TV-tropes, it clearly needs more music, in particular in a webcomic so obsessed with contemporary references. So when the subtly hinted reference to Olivia Newton-John comes along, remember that I predicted it f1rst!!11!!

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