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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:57 am 
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:10 am 
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    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user got funny with a rodent
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:21 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    Another comic that didn't need to be written. At this point, did we really need a comic that, besides the one comment on the portal, only clarified Wanda's philosophy? This page could have been a text update, and then drawn for the Book release.


    As they say, YMMV. I find this update nice because of the banter, the added info to the Portals-to-Capitals discussion, and a third reason to be expanded below. That said, all of those reasons could have been filled well enough by a Text update. The reason it wasn't, is that Erfworld is a Webcomic and I suspect the authors demand of themselves to not put Text Updates one after the other in quick succession. The Summer of Text being the exception, as there wasn't an illustrator at the time.


    Okay, then I need to correct that. It shouldn't read "Another coomic that didn't need to be written." I should have written...

    Kreistor wrote:
    Another comic that didn't need to be drawn.


    Okay, my point should have been, "Why are we seeing this discussion?" Back a long time ago, I went to movies regularly with friends, but that kind of tailed off. We started having to pick whihc movies not to miss, and what decided for me was, "Since I can see this on the small screen in 6 months, what about being on the Big Screen justifies the expense?" Basically, I decided that the visuals were the primary factor for going to the theatre. If the visual effects were not a significant part of the movie, there was nothing lost seeing it on television.

    So what visually justified drawing this comic vs. writing it as a Text Update? Rob said he was hard up for text updates... so why not Text Update this one? We don't want the Portal Park stuff to be Text, because we'd lose the interesting references in the background. Did Wanda show any exceptional facial expressions? Guffaw. Jack? Normal impishness, nothing more. The Captain is animated wiht emotion, but we dont' really care much about him, so reading that would be fine.

    Yes, we needed all of the info in this comic... all of it. The argument with a new Decrypted tells us that they are not absolute mind-slaves to Wanda. Our previous knowledge was based soolely on Ansom, who is a man of faith and conviction, giving us the illusion of all Decrypted being enslaved. This is not the first time we've seen this info. The Decrypted Archons were not as loyal either. What this suggests is that Ansom can be Turned. Maybe not by Turnamancy, but maybe just by talking with him, and plucking the Love string. But did this need to be Drawn to come across?

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    No, that thing is all-kosher. The problem is not the Tower, per se, but the fact that if the Tower falls, Slately croaks (or so GK units assume) therefore ending Jetstone.


    Not exactly. If you run back to Book 1, we learn in a Klog that GK falls when the enemy captures all three parts of Garrison -- Courtyard, Tower, and Dungeon.

    For Jetstone, Garrison is Atrium (captured), Dungeon (almost captured), and Tower (being destroyed). When Tower falls, regardless of Slately's survival, Tower is no longer a part of Garrison, so GK only has to clean up the rest of Dungeon and they'll hold both Garrison zones completely, and thus possess the City.

    There are loads of Jetsone Units in Mainway, but that's not in Garrison: it would be the equivalent of Outer Walls in GK, or another zone outside Garrison entirely. If Mainway were in Garrison, they obviously wouldn't be as worried about Tower falling resulting in City capture.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:30 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Another comic that didn't need to be drawn.


    In my own convoluted way I was coming to that exact sentiment. Again, I expect one of the reasons why it was drawn is that this is a webcomic and the creators wish to avoid relying too much on Text updates as crutches. Just a hunch, must admit.

    Kreistor wrote:
    Not exactly. If you run back to Book 1, we learn in a Klog that GK falls when the enemy captures all three parts of Garrison -- Courtyard, Tower, and Dungeon.


    Ah, yes, that's correct.

    Ok, then my response to the original question from reignofevil should have been- "since GK was no longer threatened with conquest by a side (seeing as how all enemy units were vaporized, and only a handful of GK rock Golems still survived at the spot), it kept its portal. Spacerock is in danger of losing all relevant areas."

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    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:31 am 
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    In response to the people saying that Jack and Wanda shouldn't have made this mistake, tell me that you've never been playing some kind of strategy game or RPG and do something you should know better to do?

    "Okay I open the door.........OH SHIT I FORGOT TO CHECK FOR TRA-" *squish*

    Thats what Jack and Wanda did, in the heat of the moment they let the easy target of the tower distract them and didn't think about possible what ifs delaying Parson's trip, hence Jack kicking himself over it. Also at the moment getting Parson there is very important, not only would it be difficult to get back to GK now that he's burst into the MK but with Ansom gone and Ossomer having a blue screen moment, Parson is the only compitent strategist and leader they have left. Sylvia, god bless her, is a psychopath, not much for thinking ahead other than what to burn. Wanda has no command experience outside of zombies and Jack is good at lateral thinking but it seems he's still got a bit to learn and he has no leadership. Getting Parson to the frontlines despite his small bonus would make their forces much more organized and efficient than Parson having to relay everything through Maggie while looking at a static board covered in figures, he could see everything happening with his own eyes and adjust accordingly on the fly.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:34 am 
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    Red Piker wrote:
    In response to the people saying that Jack and Wanda shouldn't have made this mistake, tell me that you've never been playing some kind of strategy game or RPG and do something you should know better to do?

    "Okay I open the door.........OH SHIT I FORGOT TO CHECK FOR TRA-" *squish*


    I make mistakes. But if I'm in a team, usually someone else spots them.

    Also, there wasn't a "heat of the moment". They had time to deliberate when they were sitting in the Portal room, waiting for Godot. Arguably there was time for reflection when Jack's suggestion was first aired.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:13 am 
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    I don't see the issue. Antium didn't see the priority. Jack was caught up in the plan. Wanda's a fatalist. They're people in the middle of a war, not gamers playing at one from armchairs.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:23 am 
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    zuche wrote:
    I don't see the issue. Antium didn't see the priority. Jack was caught up in the plan. Wanda's a fatalist. They're people in the middle of a war, not gamers playing at one from armchairs.


    Exactly. It's all very real to them. You do not risk your CWL anymore than he wants to (and getting stranded in the MK was not the risk he wanted to take). You do not sit around in a portal room waiting for someone friendly when there's a chance that portal will close. That YOU don't see the issue is understandable. That THEY don't see the issue is strange.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:27 am 
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    Parson will be fine. If the portal closes he can just walk back to GK. Indeed it might be a good idea for Jack and Wanda to flee when the tower is on its last HP. I mean you normally don't bother to think "So if the enemy screws up really badly, and what annoyances will I have to put up with."
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Exactly. It's all very real to them. You do not risk your CWL anymore than he wants to (and getting stranded in the MK was not the risk he wanted to take). You do not sit around in a portal room waiting for someone friendly when there's a chance that portal will close. That YOU don't see the issue is understandable. That THEY don't see the issue is strange.
    Stranded? He can just walk back to GK. He's not stranded. And Adam is right, its not like much resistance will happen when the tower falls. Dance fight+artifact+Wanda+Leadership>>Leadership. So every decrypted will be able to do more damage than an equivalent Jetstone unit by a huge degree. The exact same thing will happen as happened in the dungeon. No dusting for GK total wipe for Jetstone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:29 am 
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    Big disappointment of this update: the fact that I didn't get to see Jack and Wanda's facial expression when they realized exactly how badly they screwed up.

    As much as I enjoy the exposition in updates like this, I can't help but think the scene would feel more theatrical if we didn't have every single plot point spelled out in detail before it actually happened. This update makes it very very clear that Parson getting trapped in the MK is where this is headed, so by the time it actually happens, it just isn't going to be much of a surprise. The same thing kind of happened with the dragon drop, where we had 30 updates leading up to it, making sure every detail of how it worked and what the consequences were going to be before it ever happened, and it kinda sucked the life out of the comic for the duration.

    As nice as it is to have a grasp of the mechanics of what's going on in the battle, I'd much rather see the action before knowing about it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:35 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Parson will be fine. If the portal closes he can just walk back to GK.

    {snip}

    He's not stranded.


    Cool to know that a double dash through the MK is apparently a kosher thing in these forums. But riddle me this, if Parson does get to Spacerock, which falls, wouldn't he then be stranded there?

    The fact is, a Portal's disappearance once a city is no longer a capital really changes what "you", whoever "you" are, happen to think about this plan and its variation. The deviation threatens to leave Parson in the MK, with hostile casters about. The completion threatens to leave Parson on the frontlines. This is the kind of thing you'd expect a team to be aware of at the start of the plan. And whether they take the risk or not is another matter, but they should be aware that it exists.

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    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:35 am 
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    Sweet. Confirmation on the whole portal discussion. So at this point we can assume: Every side has just one portal. That portal appears at their designated Capitol. A side can have more than one capitol site but only one capitol and thus, only one portal.

    It does beg the question of how portals come into being in the Magic Kingdom. In the diagram scenes for Sizemore's tunnel we saw some sort of device in the ground below the portal. Either they are all fixed or a new one pops when there is a need for one. Also, are capitol sites predetermined or do they sometimes randomly appear in unclaimed area like barbarian troops, etc. For simplicities sake, I would assume that there are a finite amount of capitol sites each with a corresponding portal device in the Magic Kingdom. When a capitol site becomes the main capitol for a side, then the portal becomes active.

    In this case, if Slately escapes and re-activates his old capitol site, then the current portal would be deactivated .. but.. since Jetstone is falling back to their original capitol site, would the portal simply now link up to the new site? or would this one wink out and another one in a different part of the portal park turn on?


    So.. GK takes down the tower and thus controls all three zones of the garrison, thus giving them control of the city (shackles pop on all remaining Jetstone units - even Slately if he is still in the city. Archon units and Ossomer can now move freely). The portal winks out and, if he hasn't made it through, Parson is trapped and can only safely return via GK's portal. Perhaps he stays in the Magic Kingdom and becomes the leader there. He could then create a ragtag group of misfit casters, training them to fight for a world that shuns them in order to gain acceptance and peace for all Erfkind... oh wait.. thats X-Men or is that Doom Patrol? Anywayz.. nice update!


    Last edited by joosy on Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:46 am 
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    kerrik wrote:
    Big disappointment of this update: the fact that I didn't get to see Jack and Wanda's facial expression when they realized exactly how badly they screwed up.

    As much as I enjoy the exposition in updates like this, I can't help but think the scene would feel more theatrical if we didn't have every single plot point spelled out in detail before it actually happened. This update makes it very very clear that Parson getting trapped in the MK is where this is headed, so by the time it actually happens, it just isn't going to be much of a surprise. The same thing kind of happened with the dragon drop, where we had 30 updates leading up to it, making sure every detail of how it worked and what the consequences were going to be before it ever happened, and it kinda sucked the life out of the comic for the duration.

    As nice as it is to have a grasp of the mechanics of what's going on in the battle, I'd much rather see the action before knowing about it.


    Firstly, yes - seeing there faces would have been cool. hey, maybe we'll get it in a text update one day :p

    Secondly, foreshadowing can be kind of cool, though. Especially when the story is coming out in serialised form it can seem heavy handed, but go back and read the comic at normal speed and all the pacing issues that get bemoaned really do seem trivial; in my opinion, the comments on pacing are really little more than manifestations of our frustrated desires for instant gratification. With things being foreshadowed they don't have to happen, the few times when they do can lull you into the trap of expecting it will the next time, and then when the outcome goes against your expectations: instant drama! Speaking of drama, the edge of possibility that this might or might not work certainly adds the tension.

    As to seeing the action before knowing about it, so many people used to whinge endlessly during book 1 each time a new and unexpected strategy was pulled from the hat without knowing enough of the grounds! I really hope that Rob wasn't so burned by the unfounded criticism he got back then that he decided to reverse the style. However, its my belief that Rob knows what he is doing and is telling a well balanced story (not just publishing one of the books from Gobwin Knobs library, which is what it seems like some people want to read).

    Anyway, Kerrik, I've just re-read what I've written and I hope it doesn't come off as me having a go at you per se. My observations here are general not personal!

    Regarding Wanda's philosophical exposition, I find it to be a neat parallel to Parson's discussion of what strategy is at the end of book 1 - but have a horrible fear that if Stanley gets to do it just before the finale of book 3, that we might not survive the horror :p

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:58 am 
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    Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Shiny Red Star Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user posted the comment of the month This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Dr Pepper wrote:
    As Rob throws a double portion of raw meat into the pit, answering questions so thoroughly that even ?beron, Bland, and Associates will be temporarily sated.

    HAHAHA. Quite true lol, I'm definitely glad the portal question was addressed specifically, and there are a few other interesting tidbits to ponder from this update. I applaud your wise use of the word temporarily as well haha.

    elecampane wrote:
    Also, Mysterious-Guy-From-The-Wall-Hanging is back, and we can see him more clearly now. Any ideas on who he is?

    HenningNT wrote:
    The guy on the wall hanging reminds me of one of the Doctor Whos...

    Based on the fact that we can assume the other tapestry was Holly Shortcake, and this is the portal room, it's most likely another former caster. Based on the outfit I'd guess its a Carnymancer, which would fit Doctor Who (who routinely improvises, acts secretly, and rigs the odds to his favor). Luckamancy would also suit Doctor Who, since he often is referred to as being "clever", and Luckamancy is a school of Clevermancy. (so punny)

    Lastly I agree that while slightly anticlimactic, this update is valuable in the fact that it VERY explicitly outlines Wanda's thought process/beliefs, and it also shows that the main characters we have come to trust in some ways are not perfect. This is perhaps another example of Fate influencing luck, which is a theory Balerion posited in the reaction thread to the most recent text update, but I'll examine that in more detail in a later post when I have the time.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:36 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    HenningNT wrote:
    The guy on the wall hanging reminds me of one of the Doctor Whos...

    Based on the fact that we can assume the other tapestry was Holly Shortcake, and this is the portal room, it's most likely another former caster. Based on the outfit I'd guess its a Carnymancer, which would fit Doctor Who (who routinely improvises, acts secretly, and rigs the odds to his favor). Luckamancy would also suit Doctor Who, since he often is referred to as being "clever", and Luckamancy is a school of Clevermancy. (so punny)


    I've watched all of the Doctor WHo (or at least listened ot the ones that the film is lost for), and I can say with certainty that isn't A Doctor. None of them wore a red double breasted coat. Only one wore a cape, but it was an operatic half-cape, not full length. Any chance it's a Final Fantasy character? I really wish he was carrying his staff/wand, which might help identify School.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:18 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    zuche wrote:
    I don't see the issue. Antium didn't see the priority. Jack was caught up in the plan. Wanda's a fatalist. They're people in the middle of a war, not gamers playing at one from armchairs.


    Exactly. It's all very real to them. You do not risk your CWL anymore than he wants to (and getting stranded in the MK was not the risk he wanted to take). You do not sit around in a portal room waiting for someone friendly when there's a chance that portal will close. That YOU don't see the issue is understandable. That THEY don't see the issue is strange.


    No, I do see the issues THEY are having. The issue I don't see is the one YOU have with them acting like people do in the middle of a war. People screw up in the field all the time, often on the basis of plans made months in advance by people who overlooked something ridiculously self-evident in hindsight.

    What we have here is entirely new ground. In Erfworld's history, when has a side endangered one its units by achieving victory -- while that unit isn't even at the battle? Delightfully, the realization only comes about as a result of Antium's confusion.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:49 pm 
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    Here's an odd bit of speculation: Could the image be of PRINCE Slately? He may have been slightly larger before signamancy made him small to reflect his pettiness...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:15 pm 
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    Jack's "Oh... shit." moment was beyond priceless. And Adam is impressing more and more. He's one of the things we've never really had; the "straight man" native to Erfworld. He's a competent, reasoning, officer, and frankly based on his internal monologues one of the most deserving of his position. And it's nice to see someone stand up to Wanda (gleefully aided and abetted by Jack, my favorite caster, no less). Admittedly, he also missed the portal consideration, but remember, nobody has ever done this. The MK is regimentally neutral, and Parson is a totally new factor. He can motherfucking teleport. How do you remember to plan for that? Well, if you're a gamer (where options are life, and almost guaranteed to exist), you really sit down and consider your them. On the other hand, a fairly capable technical specialist (such as some officers) will probably not think that far outside the box. It's like suddenly finding out that cats are an intrinsic part of the battle plan. Do you plan for hairballs? The hell you do!

    And just to clarify, the GK portal didn't disappear because GK won the siege - they still had several units in the battlespace to RCC1's zero. Because the dungeons were never captured, the portal survived. On the other hand, if all three of the central sections of the city (Spacerock here) have been taken/destroyed, then the city would fall and thus ownership would pass to GK. Currently, both the garrison (secured in the Food Fight) and the dungeons (secured by Adam and Wanda) belong to GK. If they topple the tower, that's the last section.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:27 pm 
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    What is Wanda doing with that book in panel 3? Shaking it like an etch-a-sketch?
    She was staring down at it through much of page 68. What IS that thing, anyway? An eye-book?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 70
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:39 pm 
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    holy_dwead wrote:
    What is Wanda doing with that book in panel 3? Shaking it like an etch-a-sketch?
    She was staring down at it through much of page 68. What IS that thing, anyway? An eye-book?


    Yes, an eye-book. Although now I want an eyetch-a-sketch

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