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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Tachyon wrote:
3. What I would be interested to know is, how did Charlie know that GK had specifically promoted Parson to Chief Warlord that turn, and so soon after it happened (he made a point of mentioning it to Tram almost immediately after it happened)? Was he just guessing when he informed Jetstone of it? He seems to have his facts sorted well in advance of having given the information away... and this seems to be another conclusion he reached somehow where we're not sure how he came by the information, just as when he eventually figured out there was a volcano uncroaking event, and not just a random eruption (he could just have really thoroughly have researched the topic of hex-sized Dirtamantic traps, but even with all of Erfworld's rules, he'd be betting on a 50% chance that he was right - and Charlie prefers to play games that have no losing outcomes, so it's unlikely he's just making boop up). But he also seems to specifically know that Parson is "the more than perfect Warlord", which speaks to him having knowledge of the summon spell and its relation to Parson's existence... so maybe Charlie has more connections than we know about, after all.


Page 38. First, we know the Thinkamancers believe Charlie's tapping all regular thinkagrams, so he knows anything communicated over them as well as anything else he can reasonably infer. On page 38, Jillian and Trammennis both call Charlie, get put on hold as "Charlie is on another call at the moment," and we see Parson briefing Wanda on "the plan" by Thingagram. So... that's not a big mystery how Charlie knows.

Even if no-one used the words "Parson, Chief Warlord again," he's giving direct orders again, and Charlie has always considered Parson the real threat and the real brains of GK's operation.

The only thing Charlie wouldn't get from that is Parson going through the MK, since Maggie was surprised by it and Sizemore was briefed in person. I still lean towards Jojo working for or just being tipped by Charlie on the spur of the moment, but I'm not wedded to it. He could be more or less a free agent, tipped by the Turnamancer, and either got lucky or have hired a Predictomancer himself.

Except that it's not necessary to explain everything, it is a fair point that Charlie, if he's smart, won't rely only on his 'dish, and engage spies when he can. And he'd be well positioned to if he's hiring casters anyway. They wouldn't all have to think of themselves as agents, just doing the neighborly thing of sharing the MK gossip with a well-paying employer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:56 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    No, she was informing him he was banned. She didn't ban him, the casters in MK did. What on earth is so hard to understand about who bans whom?
    So you can point to part of the book where the casters in the MK say something to the affect of "Get out and don't come back!"?
    Kreistor wrote:
    That doesn't make one ounce of sense. He states to TWO casters in the room that he is not allowed to go, and NEITHER corrects him, or tells him that he is a Hippiemancer, after he ripped Wanda a huge hole for not telling him about her scrolls in Book 1 right in front of both of them. They know to tell him everything of relevance (that at least is not the secret of another Side).
    One Parson is arguably technically correct, if the MK is caster only. Two for Parson's plan he is correct. The casters will almost certainly glare at him, yell at him, and watch him, which will make slipping into Spacerock impossible.
    Quote:
    Quote:
    Other than Maggie, (who as we can see recently is supporting his entrance into the MK) not one caster has told Parson to get out of the MK.

    No, they only screamed, "WArlord!" and "Stop!" No, they don't care he's a Warlord in the least.

    Sorry, lamech, but you're tearing down, but you're not building up. If you do not think that statements say what I think they say, then you need to tell me what they DO mean. "They mean something else" si *NOT* satisfactory to me. I'm fine with criticism, but when the criticsm fails to provide an acceptable alternate explanation for what is fairly obvious.
    Okay one, they still aren't forcibly confronting him. Two, what do you think "stop" and "warlord" mean? I think "Warlord" means "That person there is a warlord." And I think "stop" means "You there stay there!". First off neither of those are saying, "get out of the MK", and in fact "stop" would preclude leaving. If your walking out of a store and someone tells you to "stop"? They don't mean "get out".
    Quote:
    Ah, right. Well, it might be true. But Sizemore always had a self-esteem problem. He says he was liked, but that might be his low self-esteem explaining what is far more likely merely an extension of people's fear of Wanda. It's not that they don't like him, it's that he reminds them of Wanda and they don't want that. But, hey, all those casters may be completely selfish gits that blame a very kind guy for the faults of someone he is forced to work with. Could happen.
    That is kind of exactly what the link says. Nor is Sizemore forced to work with anyone he could simply turn to the MK. (Or another side if need be.)

    Quote:
    Royals are exceptional. Royal sides do split off to create new Sides. Non-Royal sides appear not to. And while Stanley is suspected of regicide, now that we know how active the MK was in ensuring the Summon spell was cast, I personally look towards the conspiracy for setting up Saline. They would explain how Stanley encountered so many dwagons on teh way to FAQ, too. Janis doesn't know everything Marie did.
    And your reference for royals being immune to duty is where? Also it doesn't matter if Stanley was responsible or not. What matters is that people thought him capable of doing it. Erfworlder's believe that even for non-royals treachery is possible. Which means that duty is not infallible.
    Quote:
    Some have pointed out the Summon scroll glowed, and Jojo's did not, implying it wasn't nearly as powerful. Sizemore stated that it "pulses", which indicates that it did something atypical of other scrolls. If it had that level of power, it should be obvious.

    Why wasn't it Carnymancy? Because if it was, Jojo wouldn't need a scroll and could cast the spell himself. Unless it really was a link-up scroll, of course.
    Most of the panels with the SPW scroll it was not pulsing actually. Not how Sizemore walked a good ways with Wanda before he noticed the pulse? And there are numerous reasons why Jojo might have had to use the scroll. One it could have been assembled by multiple casters, we know from Ace and Cubbins non-linked casters can work together on items. Two, Jojo could be juiceless. Its possible he was included in the link up for kingworld. Three a stronger Carnymancer made it. Four it was a link up scroll. So again it is very possible Jojo was chosen because a Carnymancer is needed.
    Quote:
    And we'll know fairly soon, won't we? When Parson pops up out of the tunnel and finds Casters spraying spells around, we'll know for certain that some want to kill Parson and some are willing to hurt Casters to prevent that.
    I suppose we will. I do note that we just saw above ground with a distinct lack of casters shooting.

    Quote:
    Given the looks Sizemore gets, Wanda may not survive such an attempt. Now that the Decryption trick is out of the bag, she is, effectively, worse than Parson. If she kills a caster and decrypts him, GK gets a new unit, and maybe a caster, who would be far more loyal than whatever Parson as a Warlord could do.
    Note I am not implying that Wanda kill anyone. That would probably start a fight. (Which would either end in the destruction of GK or the magic kingdom in all likelihood. The MK casters certainly could screw-up the fight against decryption.) I am saying that if a caster gets killed by one of Parson's defenders Wanda could decrypt the caster.
    Quote:
    Only Thinkamancers can create Link-ups. YES, a Thinkamancer had to be in the Link. WOw, man, that's basic Book 1 stuff.

    The above poster pointed out Wanda describing the spell to Jillian. "Findamancy/Lookamancy thing". Yes, a Findamancer had to be in it too.
    And... they can only create 3-person links tops. So if we are going by what we were told in book one then there wasn't a four or more link-up. Oh. And actually that isn't true that only thinkamancers can create link-ups. There is at least one magic item that can do it as well. For example the arkendish. Presumably in this case it was a thinkamancer though.
    We don't know the exact mechanics of the link-up spell. We don't know who was all included. We do know casters can work together with out an actual link, such as Ace and Cubbins, or the unraveling of the volcano link. It could be that there was one link-up and a bunch of castings working together outside of the link. Maybe the link-up was three casters, but it didn't include a thinkamancer. Maybe, Wanda was lying about either Findamancy or Predictamancy being involved. If findamancy, predictamancy, and lookamancy were all directly included in the link then a rule had to get busted somewhere. Or its possible that the casters found some other way to work together. Most importantly a link-up is NOT the only way for more than one caster to work together.

    Oh and the important detail is not that the Jojo scroll is equal in power to the SPW scroll. It is that it might share one specific similarity: that it is best cast by a specific flavor of caster, and therefore a Carnymancer is the best to cast it.
    Kreistor wrote:
    Nope. But you're not explaining why, when secrecy was specifically mentioned as key, that a whole lot of uninvolved people were aware of the plan, while not being in the Link-up. If it was only a three-person link, why couldn't it have been done in a small little corner of the MK?

    I would contend that the reason it was hard to conceal was that it was a larger number of people necessary for the link-up, and a link-up of more than three people would attract significant unwanted attention. A three--person link wiht a couple members of the GMTTA around to unravle it wouldn't have been that concerning.
    The GMtTA are might all share their thoughts on the scroll even if just one was involved. Indeed its in the name. If predictamancers hatched the scheme together they might know. Maybe they all worked together to predict the best way to change things. It would certainly be beneficial if all the Predictamancers were working together to warn Parson of any major dangers he might face and fail to overcome. Or there really could be any number of reasons.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:05 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Tachyon wrote:
    More likely, Charlie can feel it the way a ruler normally feels their own sides' changes, like units being promoted, the treasury being spent, units being ordered to pop, units moving through portals, etc. Either that or he has an informant inside GK. I'd say "or GK's allied sides", but they don't have any... unless you count the Hobgobwins. Hobgobwin betrayal? Not the most unlikely thing ever, but pretty unlikely, unless the Gobwin races are simply treacherous by nature and can't help themselves when tempted with resources and a free visit to carnageville (or otherwise brainwashed... I bet Charlie could do that kind of thing, considering the Giants were so easy to turn, and that was his idea).


    He couldn't tell that his Archons were decrypted until he spotted them in battle. No, this is readily explained by Parson's change of attitude in his Thinkagrams. That theory uses a known power Charlie already has, and requires little intuition. It's pretty obvious that Parson is issuing orders without consulting anyone else For instance, he finds out that Wanda isn't Veiled, so he orders Jack to hide them, but he does nt consult with anyone about that decision, which puts Parson in charge. Sorry, but I'm not going to give Charlie a bunch of powers that no one else has when a perfectly plausible explanation is available that doesn't make him a demigod.

    Hey, I'm not interested in being right. Believe me, if thought I had all the answers, I wouldn't be sittin' around on a forum talkin' about them - it's a hassle, especially when you consider the details of the task. I'm just talking to get people's brains cranking out plausible theories and relevant facts, and to test the validity of my own observations - which, it would seem, has had the desired effect on you. And at any rate, I came up with that theory on sleep deprivation time; it shouldn't be surprising it looks like swiss cheese. But at least you've got that theory sorted out for me.

    So, we can agree it's pretty ridiculous that Charlie has super-senses bordering on prescience - and at any rate, that was a dysfunctional theory to begin with, or he wouldn't need Archons to do his spying for him. Instead, Charlie has just been spying on all Thinkagrams going in and out of GK, and indeed most Thinkamancy-style direct communications (wouldn't be surprised if he was spying on Transylvito and Jetstone, too, which at any rate would explain why he assumed it was a losing scenario for them as early as he did).

    I would still be surprised if Charlie couldn't easily influence Natural Allies, though - but that's just a theory I'm entertaining for my own entertainment. Also, this talk of Charlie's ability to monitor Thinkagrams and such brings to mind a question of dubious relevancy: could Charlie have spied on the Eyemancer Table before Misty croaked? Hypothetical and kind of pointless, at that, but it's a fun notion. Like trying to figure out if Charlie could decode what Parson was saying if he suddenly started speaking Spanish during a Thinkagram.

    Saladman wrote:
    Tachyon wrote:
    3. What I would be interested to know is, how did Charlie know that GK had specifically promoted Parson to Chief Warlord that turn, and so soon after it happened (he made a point of mentioning it to Tram almost immediately after it happened)? Was he just guessing when he informed Jetstone of it? He seems to have his facts sorted well in advance of having given the information away... and this seems to be another conclusion he reached somehow where we're not sure how he came by the information, just as when he eventually figured out there was a volcano uncroaking event, and not just a random eruption (he could just have really thoroughly have researched the topic of hex-sized Dirtamantic traps, but even with all of Erfworld's rules, he'd be betting on a 50% chance that he was right - and Charlie prefers to play games that have no losing outcomes, so it's unlikely he's just making boop up). But he also seems to specifically know that Parson is "the more than perfect Warlord", which speaks to him having knowledge of the summon spell and its relation to Parson's existence... so maybe Charlie has more connections than we know about, after all.


    Page 38. First, we know the Thinkamancers believe Charlie's tapping all regular thinkagrams, so he knows anything communicated over them as well as anything else he can reasonably infer. On page 38, Jillian and Trammennis both call Charlie, get put on hold as "Charlie is on another call at the moment," and we see Parson briefing Wanda on "the plan" by Thingagram. So... that's not a big mystery how Charlie knows.

    Even if no-one used the words "Parson, Chief Warlord again," he's giving direct orders again, and Charlie has always considered Parson the real threat and the real brains of GK's operation.

    The only thing Charlie wouldn't get from that is Parson going through the MK, since Maggie was surprised by it and Sizemore was briefed in person. I still lean towards Jojo working for or just being tipped by Charlie on the spur of the moment, but I'm not wedded to it. He could be more or less a free agent, tipped by the Turnamancer, and either got lucky or have hired a Predictomancer himself.

    Except that it's not necessary to explain everything, it is a fair point that Charlie, if he's smart, won't rely only on his 'dish, and engage spies when he can. And he'd be well positioned to if he's hiring casters anyway. They wouldn't all have to think of themselves as agents, just doing the neighborly thing of sharing the MK gossip with a well-paying employer.

    There you go. Speaks to the idea that Charlie isn't behind Jojo, even if it doesn't prove that idea. Me? I like that idea.

    My specific remaining questions are, in order of importance:

    1. How did Charlie know it was a volcano uncroaking? No one communicated this fact via Thinkagram, as far as we've seen, before or after the fact. Charlie still figured it out somehow (which we see in a text update before Book 2, no less). There's plausible theories for this, but not worth debating at the moment, as actual proof is absent.

    2. Charlie specifically calls Parson "the more than perfect Warlord" when referring to him. I like the idea of Charlie having hired a Predictamancer or some other form of caster from outside his own discipline to have deduced that that's what Parson actually is, but again, we haven't seen it - and I'm specifically against the idea that such a Titan ex Machina would occur, given the history of well-written foreshadowing and plot architecture thus far. So, while it's still up in the air as to how he knows, the fact it likely involves a mysterious mechanics exploit of some sort or subterfuge is an appealing idea.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:24 pm 
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    Tachyon wrote:
    I'm just talking to get people's brains cranking out plausible theories and relevant facts, and to test the validity of my own observations - which, it would seem, has had the desired effect on you.


    This isn't my first kick at the can around here, Tachyon. I've been around since comic 5, Book 1, and posting theories even when this was all back on the GitP site. I paused long enough to ensure that someone that took a disliking to me to leave the site entirely, and now I am merely back. You inspired nothing. I have *ALWAYS* been like this. You may have directed me in one direction instead of another, but that's not creation, only diversion. You're the canal convincing itself it created the river because the water passed through it. No, the river was always there.

    Quote:
    And at any rate, I came up with that theory on sleep deprivation time; it shouldn't be surprising it looks like swiss cheese. But at least you've got that theory sorted out for me.


    And with that, you lose me. This won't happen again. I am not here to amuse you, or be controlled by you, or solve the problems you choose. From this point, i shall merely dismiss you, because your motives are self-centered.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:42 pm 
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    @Kreistor: Another question. For the sake of argument suppose that the casters would forcibly attack Parson to keep him out of the MK. If Charlie told them that Parson was headed to the MK and that was reason enough for them to stop Parson, why would these casters choose to confront Parson, instead of say... sticking a brick wall in front of the GK portal? It would be a much safer choice, and it wouldn't require any fighting on MK soil. If Charlie were to tell other casters about Parson he would not only need these casters to not want Parson in the MK he would need to find casters that would be willing to let Parson into the MK. See the problem? Your arguing that the casters want Parson out of the MK. While they might do that it won't help Charlie. They didn't kill Parson last time, why would they this time?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:07 pm 
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    Tachyon wrote:
    1. How did Charlie know it was a volcano uncroaking? No one communicated this fact via Thinkagram, as far as we've seen, before or after the fact. Charlie still figured it out somehow (which we see in a text update before Book 2, no less). There's plausible theories for this, but not worth debating at the moment, as actual proof is absent.

    2. Charlie specifically calls Parson "the more than perfect Warlord" when referring to him. I like the idea of Charlie having hired a Predictamancer or some other form of caster from outside his own discipline to have deduced that that's what Parson actually is, but again, we haven't seen it - and I'm specifically against the idea that such a Titan ex Machina would occur, given the history of well-written foreshadowing and plot architecture thus far. So, while it's still up in the air as to how he knows, the fact it likely involves a mysterious mechanics exploit of some sort or subterfuge is an appealing idea.



    summer update 22 wrote:
    CharlsNChrg: And none of them really have a clue what you did.
    LordHamster: Do you?
    CharlsNChrg: Well, I imagine it must have been a three-caster link.
    CharlsNChrg: Croakamancer applied motion/matter principles through the Dirtamancer, but to animate terrain instead of bodies.
    CharlsNChrg: Correct?
    LordHamster: Something like that.


    IF Charlie's on the level here, it sounds like he just sat down and reasoned it out. "Eliminate the impossible, and the remaining, however improbable..." When you consider casters already do think about this kind of stuff in a theoretical sense (though many are tied to their disciplines), it's reasonable that a caster confronted with an unprecedented spell would sit down and eliminate theoretical possibilities until he's left with one (correct) possible explanation.

    Question #2 you're right about, that sounds like inside information. It might have been only something Parson or Wanda said by thinkagram, but I can't remember anything like that on-screen, so yeah, Charlie likely, somehow, got an informer or a very good spy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:10 pm 
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    Whoa... I missed most of that exchange between Kriestor and Tachyon because those posts were 6's and my attention span is a 2 on a good day. That said, don't be too put out by any acrimony witnessed here on the forum, Tacyhon. I appreciated the thoughts you brought up and the measured way you phrased them... even if I didn't agree with the idea I read before my mind wandered.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:23 pm 
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    Saladman wrote:
    Tachyon wrote:
    2. Charlie specifically calls Parson "the more than perfect Warlord" when referring to him.

    Question #2 you're right about, that sounds like inside information. It might have been only something Parson or Wanda said by thinkagram, but I can't remember anything like that on-screen, so yeah, Charlie likely, somehow, got an informer or a very good spy.

    We know that thinkamancers (plural) were involved in the creation of the spell. We know that thinkamancers communicate through thinkagrams. We know that Charlie can eavesdrop on thinkagrams (otherwise there would be no need for encrypted thinkagrams). The only thing required for Charlie to have found out about the spell is for 2 casters involved in it to have discussed it via thinkagrams in an unencrypted manner.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:25 pm 
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    King Don was in his council chamber, sprawled at the table with only his moroseness for company. He had had some red wine as wll, but that was long gone. He stared at the empty bottle as if it were an incompetent underling.

    The door burst open. Bunny ran in so fast, she almost bumped into Don before she could stop. Don snapped out of his lassitude and raised a hand to smack her for the affront to his dignity. But he mastered his anger and steadied her instead. "Sire" she said, breathlessly, "i've got a thinkagram from my bff, Paris the Blonde." She made a handframe. "There's something happening in the Magic Kingdom!"

    A pink edged image formed. "That's Portal Park" explained Bunny. "And that glowing rectangle is the portal to Gobwin Knob. And that hole that everyone is looking at wasn't there before."

    It was clear from the expressions of the casters gathering around that they were completely mystified. A blue clad figure emerged from the hole and ran away. Don wasn't sure, but it looked like one of Queen Bea's former casters.

    Was the hole associated with Gobwin Knob? Don wasn't quite ready to bet his last schmucker on it, but maybe his second to last. "Bunny, ask Paris to get closer, show us what's in the hole." "Yes, Sire."

    The image grew larger. They could see the top of the hole intermittently as Bunny's correspondent tried to work her way through the crowd. She said "Excuse me." and "Ouch!" a lot.

    Suddenly a hand holding a bucket reached towards them from between two casters. A pale greenish liquid was flung. The thinkagram dissolved and Bunny stumbled to her knees, clutching her head.

    "What was that", Don asked, anxiously. "Brain bleach!" gasped Bunny. "Paris will be incapacitated until next day. And she won't be able to tell us what she saw because she won't remember anything!" "Brain bleach?" asked Don. "I thought that was something Healers carried." "It is. Normally it's used to help speed recovery from Shockamancy. But we Thinkamancers have other uses for it." Bunny squelched the thought that her own school of magic might be involved in this.

    "Get Caesar" snapped Don, his previous dark mood forgotten. "We're going to need some of his tactical common sense!"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:53 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    You know, since the possibility that Charlie can read Parson's Klogs is being discussed, it's not such a far stretch to reflect on the implications of him having access to the internet. As in, this one... as I'm sure has been done somewhere in these forums.


    My god... It all makes sense, now.

    The ultimate bad guy? The final boss? The titanic enemy Parson must overcome?

    It's *US*.
    :shock:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:02 pm 
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    nth wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    You know, since the possibility that Charlie can read Parson's Klogs is being discussed, it's not such a far stretch to reflect on the implications of him having access to the internet. As in, this one... as I'm sure has been done somewhere in these forums.


    My god... It all makes sense, now.

    The ultimate bad guy? The final boss? The titanic enemy Parson must overcome?

    It's *US*.
    :shock:


    We are so booped.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:13 pm 
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    nth wrote:
    The ultimate bad guy? The final boss? The titanic enemy Parson must overcome?
    It's *US*.
    :shock:

    It can't be us. We've already established that we are unseen inhabitants of the Magic Kingdom, arguing our pet theories while Parson figures out how things work.

    However, he might be hiring a few of us, in secret...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:43 pm 
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    A quick question -- have we determined the nature of Predictamancy in Erfworld? Usually, it comes in one of two flavors:

    1. That which is predicted is not set in stone. Actions can be taken to either alter the course of the future, or to confirm it.
    2. That which is predicted is irrefutable and unchangeable. Those who struggle against the foreseen will do so in vain.

    If Erfworldian Predictamancy is of the former variety, then it may be much more useful in combat, and may have allowed Marie to see the effects of the scroll that was almost(?) cast on Parson, yet still prevent its casting. If the latter, then it is still useful . . . but in a much more "big" picture sort of way. You may predict that Wanda will attune to an Arkentool, for instance, and then ensure that you are in a position to control the situation by the time it actually occurs.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:59 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Tachyon wrote:
    I'm just talking to get people's brains cranking out plausible theories and relevant facts, and to test the validity of my own observations - which, it would seem, has had the desired effect on you.


    This isn't my first kick at the can around here, Tachyon. I've been around since comic 5, Book 1, and posting theories even when this was all back on the GitP site. I paused long enough to ensure that someone that took a disliking to me to leave the site entirely, and now I am merely back. You inspired nothing. I have *ALWAYS* been like this. You may have directed me in one direction instead of another, but that's not creation, only diversion. You're the canal convincing itself it created the river because the water passed through it. No, the river was always there.

    Quote:
    And at any rate, I came up with that theory on sleep deprivation time; it shouldn't be surprising it looks like swiss cheese. But at least you've got that theory sorted out for me.


    And with that, you lose me. This won't happen again. I am not here to amuse you, or be controlled by you, or solve the problems you choose. From this point, i shall merely dismiss you, because your motives are self-centered.

    Wow. I wasn't aware you thought things were all about you *sarcasm*. But you know what? No skin off my back, man. I never claimed to create anything but my own theories, and if I were to claim responsibility for anything you said, I'd just be taking ownership of effectively nothing (for the record, it seems that when someone attempts to illicit a response from you - "have an effect on you", as I phrased it - you automatically interpret it as hostile or controlling... what's that about? Try rereading what I said without assuming that, maybe you'll see your aggression is misdirected.) I'm posting on a forum, not sending you e-mail - the desired effect is for anyone to respond, not just you. I'm not interested in you or anyone's opinions of me, either, I'm interested in ideas, and as I said, testing the validity of my own theories. This is what I prefer for us to focus on, and rather than enjoyment, I take (a very small amount of) umbrage at you singling me out.

    You'll note my join date - despite that this account is new, I've been following the comic from the start as well. If I were interested in drawing attention to myself, I'd have done so much sooner (and I would not have been so quick to present potentially flawed theories, either, as I take no pride in them). Drawing attention to oneself doesn't exactly take a lot of effort with people like you around, I expect; even before you started getting hostile with me, you seemed to enjoy sniping subtly (or not so subtly) at others, who while their theories may have contained flaws were no less valid than your own - and I doubt seriously that anyone has trouble seeing it, save for those who are oblivious to utter nonsense. On top of that, the fact you take such pride in the length and veracity of your term at these forums tells me that for you, it is all about you - when in fact, all I am here for (as any sensible person would be) is the comic, and discussion of it.

    So, everything you've said insofar as not wanting anything to do with me? That's perfectly acceptable. I've dealt with plenty of self-assured people like you before, all in all, and I want no part of it, so I've done all I care to do in the way of expending effort attending to your apparent self-esteem issues. If you want no attention from me, I am happy to oblige. I hope the next newcomer you greet has the sense to stay away from you, as well - or at least take everything you say with a large grain of salt. For the record, though - before your last post, I thought we were getting on alright, but it would seem friendly conversation is apparently not a hobby of yours.

    effataigus wrote:
    Whoa... I missed most of that exchange between Kriestor and Tachyon because those posts were 6's and my attention span is a 2 on a good day. That said, don't be too put out by any acrimony witnessed here on the forum, Tacyhon. I appreciated the thoughts you brought up and the measured way you phrased them... even if I didn't agree with the idea I read before my mind wandered.

    Thanks, glad to hear it. I'm new here, but I've been around on plenty of other forums for years and years (not to mention IRC), so I'm about as accustomed to acrimony as I am to breathing air ;P

    I will have more to say after the next update, I'm sure.

    Saladman wrote:
    Tachyon wrote:
    1. How did Charlie know it was a volcano uncroaking? No one communicated this fact via Thinkagram, as far as we've seen, before or after the fact. Charlie still figured it out somehow (which we see in a text update before Book 2, no less). There's plausible theories for this, but not worth debating at the moment, as actual proof is absent.

    2. Charlie specifically calls Parson "the more than perfect Warlord" when referring to him. I like the idea of Charlie having hired a Predictamancer or some other form of caster from outside his own discipline to have deduced that that's what Parson actually is, but again, we haven't seen it - and I'm specifically against the idea that such a Titan ex Machina would occur, given the history of well-written foreshadowing and plot architecture thus far. So, while it's still up in the air as to how he knows, the fact it likely involves a mysterious mechanics exploit of some sort or subterfuge is an appealing idea.



    summer update 22 wrote:
    CharlsNChrg: And none of them really have a clue what you did.
    LordHamster: Do you?
    CharlsNChrg: Well, I imagine it must have been a three-caster link.
    CharlsNChrg: Croakamancer applied motion/matter principles through the Dirtamancer, but to animate terrain instead of bodies.
    CharlsNChrg: Correct?
    LordHamster: Something like that.


    IF Charlie's on the level here, it sounds like he just sat down and reasoned it out. "Eliminate the impossible, and the remaining, however improbable..." When you consider casters already do think about this kind of stuff in a theoretical sense (though many are tied to their disciplines), it's reasonable that a caster confronted with an unprecedented spell would sit down and eliminate theoretical possibilities until he's left with one (correct) possible explanation.

    Question #2 you're right about, that sounds like inside information. It might have been only something Parson or Wanda said by thinkagram, but I can't remember anything like that on-screen, so yeah, Charlie likely, somehow, got an informer or a very good spy.

    Yep, and I don't think I'd say anything you haven't. I was tempted to quote Spock myself :3

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:16 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    @Kreistor: Another question. For the sake of argument suppose that the casters would forcibly attack Parson to keep him out of the MK. If Charlie told them that Parson was headed to the MK and that was reason enough for them to stop Parson, why would these casters choose to confront Parson, instead of say... sticking a brick wall in front of the GK portal?


    Well, to keep him out permanently comes to mind. No matter what they think of GK, putting a brick wall in front of the portal would prevent all casters from coming through, which would be taking Sides by cutting GK casters off from training. This could divide the Casters, with those on Sides taking issue with the Free casters' interfering despite the MK's neutrality to all. And if they were to tell their Rulers about the event, even if it were GK, the precedent might make them cut off their portals. That beggars the question: how do the Casters in MK pay upkeep? Cna they survive on summoned food, or do they need schmuckers from selling scrolls and services in order to maintain the MK? Rands are a local currency only, and unlikely to be usable as upkeep.

    Quote:
    If Charlie were to tell other casters about Parson


    My point included the fact that everything about Parson is known to Janis, Marie, and the other Conspirators, and after they insisted on Parson living, they would have had a lot of explaining to do about who and what he was. Besides that, with all 23 types of casters available, they may have been able to divine much about Parson, with the starting knowledge that he existed.

    Quote:
    Your arguing that the casters want Parson out of the MK. While they might do that it won't help Charlie.


    [edit Sentence here made no sense, and I have no ida what I was intending...] GK captured Unaroyal's Capital. There may well be a portal there that needs to be covered, without foreknowledge that Parson is coming from one place at one time, so you'd have to block two portals. And in a moment, three with Spacerock.

    Quote:
    They didn't kill Parson last time, why would they this time?


    Last time, he was expecting to go back to Erf, and so has a defense that it was unintended, and that the casters do not know what exactly he was, and it's not smart to poke a really big guy that you can't identify, because you can't be certain that what you've got will work on him. Attacking an unknown that isn't actually doing something aggressive is risky.

    That said, now they know that Thinkamancy Vulcan Nerve pinch works, so Parson is vulnerable. Further, he now knows that he isn't permitted to return, and can't expect the same mercy. Review how real world Security develops. We continue as we are, until we discover a new threat vector, then we act to close that vector. Parson was a new threat vector, with no definition or planned security countermeasure. Now they have had time to develop the countermeasure (anyone who wants cast whatever they want, probably), and the Security situation is defined.

    Think of Parson as a computer worm (a type of malicious software that gets into your computer while it's connected to the internet, but does not store itself on your hard drive). He gets in, and you can't do anything right away, because your anti-virus software doesn't have information on him yet. So, you sht the computer down and disconnect the Internet, and bring it back up. (The equivalent is stuning Parson, and putting him in aposition where you have overwhelming force and force him back to GK.) A IT friend had better intrusion software, and so gets a new update for you, and installs it on your computer. You restart and connect the Internet, and now the intrusion softwre sees the Worm as it tries to invade, and rejects it. (MK now informs everyone about Parson as a threat and tells them what they can do to deal with his next intrusion.)

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    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".


    Last edited by Kreistor on Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:38 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Oh, c'mon... a Carnymancer has a spell to cancel a 500000 schmucker spell? Riiiight. Why spend huge cash when all you need is a shockamancy spell to kill him and a little subterfuge to get him to take the spell willingly?

    I can't believe anyone thinks that spell was going to do what Jojo claimed, except in the loosest, most market spun sense of the words.


    The original spell was a work of art, and incredibly complicated- something to summon the best, most perfect warlord from ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE.

    Cost to simply banish him back to home base? Somewhat less, I would guess.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:42 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    @Kreistor: Another question. For the sake of argument suppose that the casters would forcibly attack Parson to keep him out of the MK. If Charlie told them that Parson was headed to the MK and that was reason enough for them to stop Parson, why would these casters choose to confront Parson, instead of say... sticking a brick wall in front of the GK portal?


    Well, to keep him out permanently comes to mind. No matter what they think of GK, putting a brick wall in front of the portal would prevent all casters from coming through, which would be taking Sides by cutting GK casters off from training. This could divide the Casters, with those on Sides taking issue with the Free casters' interfering despite the MK's neutrality to all. And if they were to tell their Rulers about the event, even if it were GK, the precedent might make them cut off their portals. That beggars the question: how do the Casters in MK pay upkeep? Cna they survive on summoned food, or do they need schmuckers from selling scrolls and services in order to maintain the MK? Rands are a local currency only, and unlikely to be usable as upkeep.
    And killing GK's Hippiemancer* wouldn't be taking sides? So, keeping one of GK's casters out of the MK isn't taking sides, killing one of GK's casters isn't taking sides, denying GK services isn't taking sides but as soon as we kick more than one of GK's casters out of the MK we've taken sides? Fine, make it a big door that can only be opened from the MK. If GK casters want training they can call ahead.
    *As far as the MK casters know Parson is a Hippiemancer and we are talking about their actions.
    Quote:
    Quote:
    If Charlie were to tell other casters about Parson


    My point included the fact that everything about Parson is known to Janis, Marie, and the other Conspirators, and after they insisted on Parson living, they would have had a lot of explaining to do about who and what he was. Besides that, with all 23 types of casters available, they may have been able to divine much about Parson, with the starting knowledge that he existed.
    What exactly could they divine about Parson? A lookamancer could see what he does all day long I suppose. What could the other ones do? And if you include predictamancers or Thinkamancers they won't be helpful. Even the lookamancy is suspect because Hubble is in the conspiracy. He could volunteer to watch Parson and lie about it.
    Quote:
    Quote:
    Your arguing that the casters want Parson out of the MK. While they might do that it won't help Charlie.


    The problem is taht not just Parson is banned from the MK, and if you notice, GK captured Unaroyal's Capital. There may well be a portal there that needs to be covered, without foreknowledge that Parson is coming from one place at one time.
    What? Your saying GK has a bunch of portals right? (Or at least two?) And this makes it impossible to seal of the portal why? Just put two seals up.
    Quote:
    Quote:
    They didn't kill Parson last time, why would they this time?


    Last time, he was expecting to go back to Erf, and so has a defense that it was unintended, and that the casters do not know what exactly he was, and it's not smart to poke a really big guy that you can't identify, because you can't be certain that what you've got will work on him. Attacking an unknown that isn't actually doing something aggressive is risky.

    That said, now they know that Thinkamancy Vulcan Nerve pinch works, so Parson is vulnerable. Further, he now knows that he isn't permitted to return, and can't expect the same mercy. Review how real world Security develops. We continue as we are, until we discover a new threat vector, then we act to close that vector. Parson was a new threat vector, with no definition or planned security countermeasure. Now they have had time to develop the countermeasure (anyone who wants cast whatever they want, probably), and the Security situation is defined.
    And you think the whole MK agreed that the best way to deal with Parson was attacking him with any spell you want? That would a) presumably quite useless due to the staff of suckage (although they might indirectly get to him somehow) and b) not be agreed to by the Thinkamancers, Predictamancers or Hippiemancers. They would probably recommend something like "Call the thinkamancers and they can cast a few suggestions to keep Parson from attacking. His rationalization will be if he attacks the backlash will get him." or even "Dude he's a caster, he's allowed in the MK."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 pm 
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    Lamech, my answer is simple: please tell me how you interpret the following exchange:

    Quote:
    "Sizemore: "It's forbidden by convention, You don't attack through portals. You can't - You don't send a caster from the Magic Kingdom to enter a city you don't control!"

    Parson: "And I'm not a caster. I'm a warlord."

    Sizemore: "The same principle applies!"

    Parson: "Who says? I don't think it does. They don't recognize my Right to even go into the Magic Kingdom. So why do I have to play by their rules? Anyway, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission."


    It has to mean something. And so far, you haven't explained what else it could possibly mean. If "they" is not the caster of MK, then who are "they"? Why are Sizemore and Maggie not correcting Parson's claim that he is not a caster?

    I don't want to hear what it doesn't say. Iwant to hear what it does say, and how it adds to the plot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:22 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Lamech, my answer is simple: please tell me how you interpret the following exchange:

    Quote:
    "Sizemore: "It's forbidden by convention, You don't attack through portals. You can't - You don't send a caster from the Magic Kingdom to enter a city you don't control!"

    Parson: "And I'm not a caster. I'm a warlord."

    Sizemore: "The same principle applies!"

    Parson: "Who says? I don't think it does. They don't recognize my Right to even go into the Magic Kingdom. So why do I have to play by their rules? Anyway, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission."


    It has to mean something. And so far, you haven't explained what else it could possibly mean. If "they" is not the caster of MK, then who are "they"? Why are Sizemore and Maggie not correcting Parson's claim that he is not a caster?

    I don't want to hear what it doesn't say. Iwant to hear what it does say, and how it adds to the plot.
    First and foremost Sizemore is saying that Parson isn't allowed into Spacerock. Next Parson believes he isn't a caster, and apparently neither does Sizemore nor Maggie. But they are not casters of the MK. Janice declared in front of a bunch of MK casters Parson was indeed a caster. Why would they think her a liar? Then Parson says they don't believe in his right to enter the MK, this could mean either
    a) Parson, Maggie, and Sizemore don't believe non-casters are allowed into the MK and since Parson is not a caster he is not allowed. Of course only a handful of people would think that. So that doesn't imply a ban that would get enforced. Hence an army would not work.
    b) Parson interpreted the response he got last time as those casters not believing Parson is allowed in, but that doesn't mean there is any sort of agreed upon response, or that they have officially declared him banned. If I go to a public park, and decide to have a pik-nick were some people were about to play soccer, they could be very pissed, but they wouldn't escalate to violence. Again the casters might, be very very angry at Parson, but that still doesn't mean they would kick him out.
    c) The casters in the MK actually agreed not to let Parson in, and told someone from GK about it. Of course, that would require a unified response and the conspiracy wouldn't agree to one that kills Parson. Also then the MK-casters are willing to block off casters from the MK which takes us right back to the question of: If informed that Parson was going to enter, why not seal off the portal? They never have to fight Parson.

    And suppose this went really well somehow and Charlie (or whoever) convinced the casters it was a good idea to assemble to defend the MK. Then the army gets to the portal ready to croak Parson the second he comes out. Aanndd immediately gets stabbed in the back by the conspiracy. Remember how devastating caster link ups are? Best case scenario the back-stab is non-lethal and the army accomplishes jack-squat, or Parson is warned.
    Or if Charlie (or whoever) gets really, really, lucky, the army assembles with out including any conspiracy members. And... Sizemore tells Parson that there is an army of armed casters outside the portal and its a no-go.

    Sending an army to get Parson would not be a useful tactic for someone wanting to kill him. You are arguing that the casters want Parson kept out. Yet, for the plan to work Parson would need to be let in. You are arguing that there response would be more forceful, and they would kill Parson. Yet, less forceful; since if they got there weapons at the ready like last time, Sizemore would have said no-go.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 65
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:17 am 
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    Yeah, Lamech, I could poke a thousand holes in that. Massive conspiracies of liars, opinion and speculation presented as fact, Straw Men... it's a non-starter, We'd just go round and around like we have been, sorry.

    BTW, since you'll protest the :Strawa Man" claim: the Straw Man is the "Army" bit. It doesn't go "One, Army", it goes, "one, two, three, [snip], 999, Army." There are far more than two possible solutions to that problem. try "thousands".

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