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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Fate is an interesting thing. I wonder if it will be the next book that Lord Hamster will finally split with GK and the united Erf will be the new enemy? Also, let's not forget the final unmentioned arkentool. I would love to see the fight between Hamster in his wargear and Artemis! :geek:

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:29 pm 
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    Well, now we see how little we can trust Artemis' internal narrative. She chided Sylvia for not covering her flanks but did nothing to protect her knights flanks should they have to try and engage. She charged in with incomplete knowledge while belittling Tremenis and Sylvia for inferior tactics only to show that her own were actually flawed worse then those she was criticizing. Yes, she had 3 shots knocked astray, but we do not know that any one of them would have even hit, much less incapacitated or killed Lady Lazarus, other then Artemis' self promoting beliefs.

    So in the end the score ends up, 7 dwagons and one hobgobwin knight lost for GK, 12 knights and a lvl 8 warlord with archery special lost for Jetstone and gained for GK. One (at most two) volley(s) and one siege engine lost by GK in the attempt to collapse the tower. Epic fail for Artemis who once again was led astray by her arrogance and self-promotion instead of trying to do her duty as given to her by her superiors or to take the safe path and stealth up the stairs to escort Slately back out of the tower before it falls.

    Michael

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:33 pm 
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    Boy artemis had some bad luck with stuff getting in her way.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:34 pm 
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    The lesson here is:

    Don't spend pages arguing about who is using good tactics or bad...when you have no idea what the full tactical situation is.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:36 pm 
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    *Both* sides were absurdly lucky. Jetstone had extreme luck against the greens and reds. The two arrows colliding helped both sides. (We don't know the full bonuses... Wanda is in same zone as decrypted, Jetstone chief warlord is incapacitated, does a King/ruler in same hex give a bonus?)

    It felt like both sides had some luckomancy help. Artemis given average luck would only have had 1 or 2 ok chances, perhaps only 50% odds.


    I have had lucky days sort of like this in an online game, where I slaughtered massive enemy forces... tends to breed overconfidence, you take more and more chances and finally something goes wrong and you lose your entire army. (Winning in long term when vastly outnumbered by less active/skilled players is often about scouting and taking your time to weaken them)


    Last edited by multilis on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:37 pm 
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    Crazy.

    I feel like Rob is trying to kill Erfworld so he can kick Webcomic-Death in the nuts and steal his scythe when He shows up for Erfworld's soul. Normally I'd warn Rob that Webcomic-Death is a nut-less skeleton, but he sure seems to look like he knows what he is doing.

    How exciting!

    Indeed, this really does seem to be reversal of roles from the last story. Fate is cheating the other side now. I love that Artemis is calling the titans out on it.

    Hmmm, I wonder if all trimancer links are "balanced" by having a set amount of impact on the story. Summoning Parson was too ineffectual so the spell kept shoving items at Parson to make up the difference (remember that even with those items, it took another trimancer link and a crazy amount of luck to put GK on top). Kingworld was too good because of the situation in which it was used, so the spell has been cheating the side that benefited from it since. I don't believe this... just thinking out loud.

    Regarding the differentials in luck... Jetstone was lucky when they were killing doods. GK was lucky when people tried to kill Sylvia only. I wonder if this is differentials in luck, or if Sylvia has honest-to-god story-sanctioned plotarmor :o

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.


    Last edited by effataigus on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:40 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    I feel like Rob is trying to kill Erfworld so he can kick Webcomic-Death in the nuts and steal his scythe when He shows up for Erfworld's soul. Normally I'd warn Rob that Webcomic-Death is a nut-less skeleton, but he sure seems to look like he knows what he is doing.


    Now it's my turn to say that there's something funny in there that I'm not getting. Can anyone neatly dissect it for me thus removing all traces of mirth?

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:44 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Now it's my turn to say that there's something funny in there that I'm not getting. Can anyone neatly dissect it for me thus removing all traces of mirth?


    "Analyzing humor is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it." E.B. White

    Nothing terribly funny about it... just using metaphor to relate the idea that Rob is using narrative heavy-handedness heavy-handedly. Also that I think and hope he's doing this quite intentionally to make a point.

    Although I should point out that someone got kicked in the nuts in the metaphor, and THAT is hilarious (when it is not me).

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    Last edited by effataigus on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:49 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Nothing terribly funny about it... just using metaphor to relate the idea that Rob is using narrative heavy-handedness heavy-handedly. Also that I think and hope he's doing this quite intentionally to make a point.


    Well, certainly could be the case. Why, I need to unbury an old pet peeve of mine (that Jillian is the Titan's favourite) and eat its maggot ridden rotten corpse (**mmm, putrilicious**) whilst loudly declaring nope, in all appearance, it is Sylvia who has that favour.

    And I thought the Titans were ready to dunk her in a piranha pool or magically feed her to Dwagons. (You'll have to visit the Erfworld Fanart group to get this)

    Anyway, Sylivia is apparently the fav, for now, seemingly. Because, still, she's among the few characters that could just die and not make one dent in the story. Some characters are de facto immortal (Parson) while others, if croaked, would signal big drama. Scarlett though? Why she could get killed by a falling bat poopie just so that Parson sitting next to her could turn to Jack and say "watch out for bat poopies from above".

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    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:52 pm 
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    There are walruses on ErfWrold?!? :o

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:54 pm 
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    That was awesome.

    I don't know if its the Titans specifically looking out for Sylvia. I personally think they may be absent or uninterested, and even if they are looking on, they built Erfworld as it is in the first place, so its not clear to me they would want it changed. But yeah, there's some kind of Fate magic going on, even (or especially) with this turn being a turning point according to Marie. I'm reminded of Wanda's comment to Parson that "you didn't wish for this world. It wished for you." Its looking like Stanley and Wanda are turning out to be very roughly correct in their sense of being tools of Fate, so she may be correct about that also. It may be the Erf itself cries out to be "fixed" and have its endless wars ended.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:07 pm 
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    Slightly tinfoil hat theory, (and stealing from another poster). The arrows didn't miss because they both collided. The collided because they both missed. Same thing with Artemis's arrows colliding into stuff. They didn't miss because stuff was in the way, they stuff was in the way because they missed. Hmm... now that I type it out I'm not as fond of it.

    But Lady Lazarus did have plot armor there, it was a text update, and the story isn't effected during the text updates, so while we could learn cool things about tactical analysis's learn cool things about Artemis's past, learn about why units are lazy bums who don't train nearly enough ect. we can't have important units from the illustrated panels dying.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:11 pm 
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    Oh, and excellent picture for this update. It fit so well with my imagination that I barely noticed it!

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:16 pm 
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    I usually don't post in the reaction pages, but this page had my eyes glued to the screen. For a minute I really thought Sylvia was done.

    Question: What major action has Lazarus done outside of text updates? I know she's a favorite, but I don't think she's any more important than the newly decripted in the portal room, she's not much more than a face if you only read the comics. If that is true it would acutally make sense to have her demise be in a text update, since thats where all her character development is.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:17 pm 
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    This update was almost . . . lyrical. In the best (updated to 21st century literary conventions) traditions of Sassoon or Graves. Exceptionally well done!

    Sylvia has Plotarmor because she has total and unshakeable faith in Fate and the Will of the Titans. Parson is a manifestation of this, and she believes in him without reservation. If and when she loses this faith, she'll be dusted, and not before. I do look forward to seeing how Sylvia and Artemis bond when Artemis is decrypted, I think we'll gain some valuable insights into the root nature of Erfworld from that.

    <sigh> So many threads being woven, and so few updates remaining . . .

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:20 pm 
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    Also worth stating, even if its obvious: it sounds like tactical combat is also turn-based in nature. Artemis' stack had initiative, so they struck first, then the GK stack hit, then Jetstone again, etc. Its complex enough it approximates real-time combat, but the structure is still there. Not sure we had canonical info on that before.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:21 pm 
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    Wow. Awesome update. I bought a new chair just to sit down and read it, and it turns out I only needed the edge.

    Also, Captain Archer is awesome. :)

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:31 pm 
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    MichaelR138 wrote:
    So in the end the score ends up, 7 dwagons and one hobgobwin knight lost for GK, 12 knights and a lvl 8 warlord with archery special lost for Jetstone and gained for GK. One (at most two) volley(s) and one siege engine lost by GK in the attempt to collapse the tower.
    Michael


    I think it's premature to call the score. As it stands, GK has lost 3 red, 3green dwagons, 1 purple, and 1 live hobgob heavy (remember, this is not a decrypted unit), vs. Jetstone losing 12 knights and a lv 8 warlord. If dwagons cost twice what knights do, that's GK came out on top. If dwagons cost 3x what knights do, then maybe not.

    If Wanda ever comes out and starts decrypting, GK will gain 12 knights, 1 hobgob heavy, and a lvl 8 warlord archer. And if any of these dwagons were alive (most dusted, but 2 of the reds exploded--is that a difference?), them too.


    Last edited by dirocyn on Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:32 pm 
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    MichaelR138 wrote:
    Well, now we see how little we can trust Artemis' internal narrative. She chided Sylvia for not covering her flanks but did nothing to protect her knights flanks should they have to try and engage. She charged in with incomplete knowledge while belittling Tremenis and Sylvia for inferior tactics only to show that her own were actually flawed worse then those she was criticizing. Yes, she had 3 shots knocked astray, but we do not know that any one of them would have even hit, much less incapacitated or killed Lady Lazarus, other then Artemis' self promoting beliefs.

    So in the end the score ends up, 7 dwagons and one hobgobwin knight lost for GK, 12 knights and a lvl 8 warlord with archery special lost for Jetstone and gained for GK. One (at most two) volley(s) and one siege engine lost by GK in the attempt to collapse the tower. Epic fail for Artemis who once again was led astray by her arrogance and self-promotion instead of trying to do her duty as given to her by her superiors or to take the safe path and stealth up the stairs to escort Slately back out of the tower before it falls.

    Michael


    I don't buy it. Artemis was working under extreme time pressure, needing to do something productive before the purples brought the tower down. Grabbing random available infantry for flankers likely would have slowed her and almost certainly would have prevented her stacking for stealth. And Tramennis' order was given just before the purples started blasting anyway; going up through the tower and bringing the king back down through it has no guarantee of being completed before the tower falls.

    In general, I'm skeptical of absolutist critiques of tactical sense from the opposite side as much as this one. We're getting the benefit both of hindsight and of a bird's eye view. The characters have only their own view, their own tactical sense, on a very short time limit, and they're dealing with an unprecedented challenge. Think of it as a wargame with only a first-person shooter interface; you're not going to play it quite the same way as an un-timed, hex-and-counters boardgame.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:40 pm 
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    I forgot to comment on the art - superb! Xin captured the moment of . . . Why? perfectly. The closest I can come to this in literary convention is when Quasimodo asks Why? as he falls to his death. (you'll have to read Hugo to truly appreciate the pathos, not the movies) (especially that Disney abomination).

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