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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:17 am 
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It's not Charlie - it's Marie. If you think about it, she is the only one who knew Parson was coming. I think that she's going to break Parson free of the duty he owes GK at the moment, and make Parson a TRUE player, beholden to none. And that makes him REALLY scary. We've speculated about how he or Wanda was going to break off and form their own side, but this would make Parson a true free agent. Stanley & Wanda are going to cwap themselves, though for entirely different reasons . . .

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:28 am 
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    trench8891 wrote:
    I doubt very much Jefftichew is there representing any sort of "free will faction", since not only is there no evidence that such a thing exists, there's no evidence that anyone in Erfworld other than Parson has any interest in free will. Rather, this is further evidence that Jefftichew has at the very least been in contact with Charlie, for information if nothing else. In which case, he's either working for Charlie (possibly via Faq) or Charlie has some way of knowing what he'll do. Charlie doesn't really seem the type to give away information and resources (the scroll?) just to create another wild card.

    What puzzles me is why Jefftichew is stalling. Since he hasn't cast it already, I infer he needs to convince Parson to let him cast it. The two best guesses for what that scroll is are some sort of turnamancy or an unsummoning spell, neither of which Parson can allow to be cast on him, since he's (most likely) still under loyalty to Gobwin Knob. This implies that either Charlie doesn't know how the summoning spell works, I don't know how the summoning spell works (either by being mistaken or there's something about we haven't learned yet), or that Jefftichew is about to lie about what the scroll does. I don't know what he would say to convince Parson to let a stranger cast a spell on him, though.


    Carney's can't force anyone to play their games. They have to convince them to play. So that fits perfectly with the idea of Carneymancy, imo.

    As for the rest, he's a Carneymancer - do not trust Carney's, do not trust Carneymancers. Is he talking about free will because he believes, or is he trying to swindle Parson? My guess is on the latter, since it's likely the most powerful way to swindle Parson. (and leads credence to the idea that he's been hired by Charlie, or has at least read Charlie's dossier on Parson.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:45 am 
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    Goshen wrote:
    I have to ask: What is a Carnymancer? What do they do?

    We don't know, yet. But let me just point out that Carnymancy sits on the axis of Fate. It also includes all three elements (Life, Motion, and Matter). Stageamancy is all about reversals and misdirection. So if there's a discipline that might be about Free Will (the opposite of Fate), Carnymancy seems a good choice.


    As an aside Can I just pat myself on the back and say that it looks like my epileptic twee from over a week ago is coming to fruition?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:45 am 
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    goodmorning wrote:
    There seems to be a hole in the thinking here.

    Jeftichew is here talking about free will. He wants to know if Parson believes in free will, and we're assuming therefore that Jojo also believes that free will exists. The connection to Charlie has already been made, because we know in a text update over the summer Charlie stated that he was "no tool of the Titans." Charlie also believes in free will, and has already reasoned that to kill one of the wielders of the tools would be evidence of this.

    So why does Jojo need to be working for Charlie? He can be working with him instead. If Charlie believes in free will, he has no need of a loyalty stat. The decrypted Archons have not told Parson all of their secrets because while they have been turned to be loyal to GK, their free will allows them to protect Charlie still. The archon bit is a stretch, but its possible.

    Anyway, the important point is that Charlie, if he believes in free will, does not need to employ or otherwise turn people to his side. He can simply ask. And he has done so to Jojo. Jojo agreed because he also believes in the cause of free will. Parson is now being made a similar offer. The scroll may be a loyalty destroying spell, but if free will really exists, then Parson will have no need of it. Its either that to help him, or its a backup plan.


    I have a few disagreements with your train of logic. Charlie has made it clear that he is "no tool of the Titans". We take that to mean that he believes he has free will, which is probably how he intended it. But... in no way does that imply that he believes his archons or any other natural born Erfworlders have free will. For my money? Charlie's not an Erfworlder, he's a Stupidworlder. When he references free will, he's not suggesting that everyone in Erfworld has free will. He's suggesting that since he and Parson are immigrants, they have free will while everyone else doesn't. I think that's exactly why Charlie hasn't tried Turnamancy on Parson already. He has had access to Vanna all this time, after all. Why wouldn't he at least make the attempt? Because as a fellow Stupidworlder with free will, he already knew it wouldn't work.

    Addendum: "Better than an Ace folks. He can beat everything!" Did anyone else think the choice to capitalize "Ace" a little odd in context? Maybe a bit of Predictamancy/foreshadowing about an upcoming encounter? I'd pay good money to see Parson's reaction to Ace lobbing grenades and swinging a lightsaber...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:49 am 
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    my tin hat theory.

    we're gonna see a matrix moment soon.. the blue scroll or the red scroll.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:51 am 
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    WallySumGai wrote:
    Addendum: "Better than an Ace folks. He can beat everything!" Did anyone else think the choice to capitalize "Ace" a little odd in context?


    Yes. But not because Ace is an Action Hero(tm), but because I believe Ace will attune to the ArkenSaw (or whatever the fourth Tool is).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:06 am 
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    What if the scroll isn't meant to be used on Parson, but is instead meant to somehow keep the other casters from interfering in their conversation, at least for a few minutes?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:29 am 
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    Jojo has a certain Rasputin look about him, which I dont like.

    Like other people have said, he reminds me of Jack, and I'd like to see a conversation between the two aswell... as foes. Assuming they are matched in skills and levels as well as weirdness, that could be epic.

    Sieggy wrote:
    It's not Charlie - it's Marie.

    Yeah.. that fits. Charlie wants Parson dead - he's given up on trying to hire him. Breaking him free of GK would be something that Marie would do..

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:34 am 
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    Interesting stuff.
    I'm going to refer to him as Jojo as it seems to cover both the Jeftichew and Beatles elements in his identity.

    I think the swirly stuff in panel 6 means the spell is already set, as soon as Parson stopped and turned. He now has to play out whatever game Jojo has in mind. Effectively the pin is out of the grenade, will Jojo let it go or not?

    What if Jojo really is a completely free agent? Bea ordered him not to serve non-royals, so he can choose who he serves, then perhaps he saw her croaked by the portal guards. With his old Queen gone he has no loyalty to anyone, not even TMK, and so has freedom of action.
    He could possibly pick up a lot of info on Parson from the gossip in TMK, the hippiemancers and the GM's know a lot about him, and those who created the summoning spell in the first place. What are his motivations? He sees himself as an outsider to the system, and sees Parson as someone just like himself? The only other person who understands free will?

    OTOH - a spell to get Parson home sounds like exactly the kind of offer-you-can't-refuse you would expect Charlie to come up with...

    Either way, Parson may be about to miss his connection to JS.

    Side note: A conversation between Jojo and Jack would be interesting - but completely incomprehensible to anyone else.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:43 am 
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    How on earth does his identity reference the Beatles? "Jojo" was the real Jeftichew's stage name.

    Personally I think his scroll will send Parson back. Not sure whether or not Parson needs to agree to it..

    And where are all the Thinkamancers? Even allowing for "talking is a free action", there's plenty of time for some aid to have arrived :?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:51 am 
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    Jay wrote:
    How on earth does his identity reference the Beatles? "Jojo" was the real Jeftichew's stage name.

    "Here comes the sun" is also a Beatles lyric. Seems pretty clear that he's supposed to be a double (at least) reference.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:58 am 
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    wrecan wrote:
    As an aside Can I just pat myself on the back and say that it looks like my epileptic twee from over a week ago is coming to fruition?

    Very nice... one of the very few pieces of plot speculation that I've thought was worth reading. Even if it's wrong it's pretty awesome in how much it concisely explains.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:10 am 
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    Wow, talk about blowing my mind... And obviously Parson only believes in The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting :)

    My guess: this scroll will not undo the summoning, but will let Parson disobey direct orders from Stanley, which will be important in the upcoming battle. And yes, I wouldn't be surprised if that came from Marie, although there's a rationale for Charlie as well (perhaps he fears capturing Parson without first removing that restriction would simply end his existence - and he could exploit that if he had significant hidden forces around the battlefield besides Jillian).


    Last edited by Utoryo on Thu May 26, 2011 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:11 am 
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    Smoker wrote:
    Yeah.. that fits. Charlie wants Parson dead - he's given up on trying to hire him. Breaking him free of GK would be something that Marie would do..

    Doubtful. First, Marie only just figured out that Parson was returning to MK. She didn't even realize what Sizemore was doing until after Jeftichew had placed himself in position. So I don't think it very likely that Jeftichew is working with Marie.

    I still think the most likely scenario is Jeftichew is independent, but working in conjunction with (nor for) Charlie. The scroll is turnamancy given him by his former colleague Vanna. The result will be to turn Parson barbarian. It seems that the success of turnamancy depends on the subject's Loyalty. If Parson is able to consent to the spell, that would certainly indicate a relatively low Loyalty. The scroll may work on Parson regardless, but it is probably less likely without his consent.

    Jay wrote:
    And where are all the Thinkamancers? Even allowing for "talking is a free action", there's plenty of time for some aid to have arrived :?

    I'm hoping the next Text Update shows the thinkamancers busy doing a Man-in-Black memory erasure on everyone they see (including Marie, Janis, and Sizemore). The thinkamancers may not have noticed Jojo entering the tunnel at all, and are busy doing damage control. And if they zap Marie, Janis, and Sizemore before any of them can mention Jojo, they may never know about it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:19 am 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    It's not Charlie - it's Marie. If you think about it, she is the only one who knew Parson was coming.

    Not true:

    Maggie told the Great Minds that Parson was coming in an encrypted thinkagram.
    Parson, through Maggie in a non-encrypted message, told Wanda that Parson was coming -- which is why they had to secure GK's portal room.
    Charlie, who likely has the ability to intercept unencrypted thinkagrams, could easily have overheard Parson's message to Wanda.
    -- In fact, while Parson is on a thinkagram with Wanda, Charlie is shown ignoring calls from Jillian and Tramennis because he is "on another call".

    Marie, on the other hand, didn't know Parson was coming until after she started speaking to Sizemore (see text update 45). By then, Jeftichew was already in position (see the immediately preceding Page 57, frame 9

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:40 am 
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    I think it would be a pretty interesting (if cold) Kobayashi Maru moment for Parson to just impale Jefftichew through the chest, grab the scroll for himself, run through the portal, and then ask Jack, "Hey, what does this scroll do?"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:52 am 
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    Slately just learned to his dismay that talking isn't always a free action.

    Parson should know better!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:58 am 
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    Jay wrote:
    And where are all the Thinkamancers? Even allowing for "talking is a free action", there's plenty of time for some aid to have arrived :?


    In what Universe? Sizemore and Company just learned that there is a second person there that isn't part of the plan.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:01 pm 
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    msb wrote:
    wrecan wrote:
    As an aside Can I just pat myself on the back and say that it looks like my epileptic twee from over a week ago is coming to fruition?

    Very nice... one of the very few pieces of plot speculation that I've thought was worth reading. Even if it's wrong it's pretty awesome in how much it concisely explains.


    Agreed. It's certainly colored how I'm reading the comic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 62
     Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:21 pm 
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    Time for Parson to negotiate. Hasn't he learnt from Unaroyal, Ansom, Kingworld, so many places, that negotiating when there's still a risk is a really, really bad idea? Attack the scroll, destroy it, try and stun Jetti if necessary and run off. Of course, plot says he's not gonna do it.

    A hypothetical scenario. Your troops are in a desperate situation, perhaps about to be destroyed. You are going over to help them. A mysterious caster with a scroll follows you in, insults you, says he's a carnymancer (like the casters of Unroyal, weird) and then tells you he's about to play a card trick on you (obviously magic).

    Do you stand there and listen to him yap? While enemy casters converge on your position. Yes, because it's a cutscene and you can't do anything different.

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