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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:45 am 
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mortissimus wrote:
BCCroaker wrote:
He may still be heir without turning - it's canon that it's possible. I'm still betting that as Slately dies and he he inherits, the reaction to becoming king will break Wandas control.
[/u]
name lips wrote:
If Oss turns, like really truly turns and changes sides, then Jetstone has their Heir back, right?


Where is it stated?

Book 2 - Page 13
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-24.jpg

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:52 am 
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    Thus far it seems that decryption does not change ones basic desires and understanding of reality it just redirects those ideas. For example Ansom is just as arrogant and sure of himself as ever, Wrigley is still only concerned with stabbing something, and now we get a look into Ossomer's head.

    Ossomer makes a few statements that express his belief system

    1. "The Titans had a plan, and that plan was expressed in the balance of power."

    This is Ossomers basic underlying assumption. Everything else he believes stems from this one statement. If this is true then Royals must be favored of the titans because they held supremacy over non-royal sides.

    2. Being Royal did mean something, after all. It meant taking the mantle of responsibility for the power the Titans had granted you.

    Ossomer believes that responsibility to be comporting oneself with dignity and honour and granting the same to your enemies defeated in honourable combat.

    3. Had the Titans no use for such distinctions, in the Age of Hamster? No, surely they must.

    Here Ossomer rejects that his fundamental beliefs about the way the world works has changed. Because GK is failing to shoulder the responsibility (as Ossomer understands it) that comes with the favor of the titans GK in general and Wanda in particular are thereby failing their Duty to the titans.


    4. But if the Titans allowed that to happen, it surely would Signify something

    I am not clear on whether Ossomer intends to fight alone and make the titans prove themselves or if he intends to allow himself to be captured/killed but it is clear to me that the outcome of this action will decide Ossomers loyalties.


    Also: It took me three reads to catch "Signify" I kept mentally translating it into signify.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:29 am 
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    Undead Prince wrote:
    Jon being played by a butt-ugly homo boy in the HBO series.


    Aww come on, I hope you have grown up farther than these kind of insults.

    Oh well, not to derail the topic any further, but yeah so far I also think the series have much potential: some of the cast are not at all like I imagined from the books but that can never be perfect, and yeah my suspension of disbelief kept being rattled by the fact the direwolves are so clearly friendly dogs... but hey, let's pretend they're still a long way growing up...

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:21 am 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    vrellum wrote:
    ...and the story resolved with world peace.


    There is no peace in Erfworld unless Lord Hamster finds a way to pay upkeeps without fighting.


    Like, say, Decrypting everyone?

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:37 am 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    zilfallon wrote:
    There is no peace in Erfworld unless Lord Hamster finds a way to pay upkeeps without fighting.

    Like, say, Decrypting everyone?

    If new units have to pop in each city every turn, Decryption isn't a final solution, since Wanda can't be in every city on the same turn. Even if you have no objections to the entire Erf being devoted to Wanda, a better logistical solution is required.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:26 pm 
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    Once a character loses the will to live, I lose all interest in it.

    Seriously, now I want Ossomer to die, he can't die fast or grisly enough.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:34 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Once a character loses the will to live, I lose all interest in it.

    Seriously, now I want Ossomer to die, he can't die fast or grisly enough.


    I'm itching to disagree on general narrative terms, but ya know what, you are the kinder of us two. If a character wishes to die, I suppose it is better for them to be savaged by Christmass Critters and have their eye-sockets ****** in by Berry Bear who ****** a whole forest in the *** looking for someone with ***, rather than slog through another moment of existence.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:47 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    DoctorJest wrote:
    zilfallon wrote:
    There is no peace in Erfworld unless Lord Hamster finds a way to pay upkeeps without fighting.

    Like, say, Decrypting everyone?

    If new units have to pop in each city every turn, Decryption isn't a final solution, since Wanda can't be in every city on the same turn. Even if you have no objections to the entire Erf being devoted to Wanda, a better logistical solution is required.


    I have a long-held suspicion that it's possible for cities to produce things other than combat units, similar to Buildings, Improvements or even Weath/Culture/etc in Civilization, but no one has bothered to tell Parson about it. Just a theory, obviously. ;)

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:55 pm 
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    ryanroyce wrote:
    I have a long-held suspicion that it's possible for cities to produce things other than combat units, similar to Buildings, Improvements or even Weath/Culture/etc in Civilization, but no one has bothered to tell Parson about it. Just a theory, obviously. ;)

    Siege engines would fall into that category, if they are considered units. Siege towers, catapults, etc. - they could be popped and used for fuel to power a steam-based industry. It still doesn't resolve the 'Wanda rules the whole world' issue, though. Some might not even see that as a bad thing. :D

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:25 pm 
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    [Said something stupid here, deleted]....

    I have a thought about what's happening next, which does not involve Ossomer "Turning" but still has Ossomer risking violating Erf Rules in order to preserve what he believes to be a Titanic Mandate regarding the honorable end to a Royal or Commander:

    Spoiler: show
    Ossomer decides he must risk an Erfworld "Fall" in order to reach enemy territory and Capture/Kill the Royals as befitting his honor. He steps off -- onto that odd tile -- and either autosplats or survives unscathed. IF he survives, the Casters try to protect Sir Squatty (can't remember his name right now) and Ossomer carves up a few of them, including Ace. He may actually capture/croak the King himself.

    To me, this would be most in line with Ossomer honoring Toolism as part of his change while still being in touch with his Honor Duties. If he Autosplats, it was the Titan's will. If he lands, he gets a chance to defeat the Commanders and Royalty the "honorable" way. It also would mean more conflict with the others, as he would be technically violating orders.

    IF he autosplats, I hope it's done hilariously. I could see one frame being him gently stepping down on the ground; his toe barely touches in the next frame, and the third features him asploding into a big dust cloud as the stunned Commanders and King look on.


    Of course, I suck at predictions.


    Last edited by El Chupacabra on Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:37 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    ryanroyce wrote:
    I have a long-held suspicion that it's possible for cities to produce things other than combat units, similar to Buildings, Improvements or even Weath/Culture/etc in Civilization, but no one has bothered to tell Parson about it. Just a theory, obviously. ;)

    Siege engines would fall into that category, if they are considered units. Siege towers, catapults, etc. - they could be popped and used for fuel to power a steam-based industry. It still doesn't resolve the 'Wanda rules the whole world' issue, though. Some might not even see that as a bad thing. :D
    I've always been one to believe that cities don't have to produce anything but, given that rulers set the que, there's likely no reason to stop popping units. I suspect it's even hard-wired into the way rulers think.

    An alternative is to simply have a ring of cities that're all reachable by Dwagon relay. Or, at worst, have a single city...a lone capital site where all non-Decrypted units live/are fed. Aaaaactually...there aren't any need for pliers. Have each city near the limit of units it can support given its production, then just pop harvest-able units. There wouldn't need to be any worries about over-population, 'cause that dwagon/sourmander/whatever would be all the city would produce. Oooohoho.

    Infidel wrote:
    Once a character loses the will to live, I lose all interest in it.

    Seriously, now I want Ossomer to die, he can't die fast or grisly enough.
    If this were Starwars, giving up the will to live would be nigh-instant suicide. Just look at Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Padme. I'm still waiting for Ossomer to become "one with the force" in the next update and dust himself.

    CelebrenIthil wrote:
    Undead Prince wrote:
    Jon being played by a butt-ugly homo boy in the HBO series.


    Aww come on, I hope you have grown up farther than these kind of insults.

    Agreed. What purpose did that even serve? Did you need to classify an actor by their sexual orientation?

    THEN AGAIN, I'm not sure Undead Prince is watching the same show as everybody else. I'm not excusing his remark, but it isn't hard to look up Kit Harrington on google. Daaaang. That boy is far from butt-ugly.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:40 pm 
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    Great to see inside Ossomer's mind. Every update that includes him seems to further cement his status as woobie! The build-up is nearly killing me, though...

    Zeku wrote:
    In the TV show we have clear white hats and black hats. Or is murdering children too greyscale?

    Keep watching; give it time. It's a mistake to assume that what you see of the characters in the first episode is all you'll ever see of them. A lot of the opening episode had to spend time setting up the world and the situations the characters are in. Shades of grey do emerge, though. In time, you come to see noble qualities in apparent monsters (some of them, anyway; a few are nothing more than monsters), and fatal flaws in apparent heroes. And, often, the honourable path isn't the best or the brightest one.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:53 pm 
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    El_Chupacabra wrote:
    So this is before Ace was decrypted, from the sound of it....


    Wait, what do you mean by "before Ace was decrypted"?

    Ace hasn't been decrypted, and it seems quite possible that he won't be.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:57 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    El_Chupacabra wrote:
    So this is before Ace was decrypted, from the sound of it....


    Wait, what do you mean by "before Ace was decrypted"?

    Ace hasn't been decrypted, and it seems quite possible that he won't be.



    Oh, wow, I'm retarded. I saw "Ace" and conflated "Antium". DERP.

    Still, the Theory in the Spoiler at least stands; it was not dependant on my interpretation of that arc being correct.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:54 pm 
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    CelebrenIthil wrote:
    Is it just me or the casters crowding around King Slately on the image almost seem posed like they might be equipping him with the jetpack?
    I'm straining my eyes but I can't tell anything for sure.... Hmm...


    Oh boy. I wonder why nobody has commented on this already. Yes, the dittomancer isnt just his usual self, standing around adding spiffy remarks twice from time to time - he is actually stretching forth his arms and fiddling with something behind the Kings back. The animatedly given speech of Lord Ace could be instructions for Slately on how to use that thing properly.

    But on the other hand Ossomer described how the King turned his back on him. If he would be wearing the jetpack by then Ossomer surely would have mentioned it.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:39 pm 
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    Undead Prince wrote:
    This doesn't mean he's "moral" from any "subjective" point of view. He's got good qualities, and very bad ones; that's it. After his "experience" with the Brave Companions he's been shifting more towards the "good" side, but nothing he's done yet redeems his cold-blooded attempt to murder the Stark boy. And nothing really says he wouldn't do something like that again, given proper circumstances. In my book, this makes him "objectively bad". Which doesn't stop him from being one of my favourite characters (but then again, so is Ramsay Bolton and a few other unsavoury types, I've got a soft spot for evil).


    Besides the fact that he supports his family,
    Spoiler: show
    helps his little brother get out of jail,
    etc. Again, the morality of the setting is not the same as our modern moral standards. Looking out for one's family is a very honorable thing to do. "Your book" is your personal opinion and has no bearing on societal norms.

    Quote:
    Really can't think of any particularly ugly qualities for those two. Apart from Jon being played by a butt-ugly homo boy in the HBO series.


    Ned beheads someone in his opening scene in the books and his second scene in the series. In many modern societies, execution, especially execution by beheading, is seen as barbaric and inhumane. So, yes, Ned Stark does have some ugly characteristics, which are perfectly acceptable within their moral standards, but would be considered as being rather unsavory in our own.

    Spoiler: show
    Jon Snow betrays his whole order by sleeping with that Wilder girl, and practically joins up with them. This particular action is immoral and dishonorable in both their moral system and many of our modern ones.


    If you couldn't tell, I'm a moral relativist/subjectivist. Any attempt to argue for an objective, absolute moral system is laughable to me, so, if you hold a differing world view, we might as well stop now, as we're not going to be convincing one another of anything.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:45 pm 
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    Ominous wrote:
    If you couldn't tell, I'm a moral relativist/subjectivist. Any attempt to argue for an objective, absolute moral system is laughable to me


    It's good you feel that way, because I find moral relativists laughable. So at least we're on mutual terms.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:53 pm 
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    Ominous wrote:
    If you couldn't tell, I'm a moral relativist/subjectivist. Any attempt to argue for an objective, absolute moral system is laughable to me, so, if you hold a differing world view, we might as well stop now, as we're not going to be convincing one another of anything.


    In that case, you might be interested in this: Science can answer moral questions. I personally think that you're wrong - there are quantifiable, objective moral systems - but we've still got a long way to go to pin them down, and morality is just fun to discuss no matter what your belief.

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:55 pm 
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    Nice link MarbitChow, I'll definitely check it out, but don't feed the twoll. S/He doesn't want an argument, they explicitly stated, so offer none. ;)

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     Post Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:03 pm 
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    If Slately is going into battle wearing the Jetpack:

    First option, recapture his heir and retire back to the tower. We've seen lots of leadership captures, and since it seems to be a defining motif for this game, why not one more? But this seems unlikely, especially after Slately insulted Ossomer to his face by saying he always picks the wrong son.

    Second option lets Slately get his avowed wish to die gloriously, but I'm not sure how the timing works: make a suicide attack and kill enough Archons to earn the Schmuckers to make Trammenis heir. Slately has to somehow arrange for Trammenis to be heir before Slately dies. Seems problematic at best.

    Which is why I like the third option: Parson has set the air forces in a distributed fashion, such that a really concentrated, powerful attack can pick the archons apart a section at a time. Now note, Trammenis is on his way to the top of the tower with a stack of knights, too! Put those elite troopers on unipegataurs, attack the airspace, stay in a powerful concentrated force and WIN. Dittomancer to double the effects of leadership and elite troop stats, Healomancer keeping units alive to benefit from the doubling, combined with Ace's technological wizardry (pun intended) - and they just might win. It just gets better if they take out Ossomer's leadership by capturing or croaking him first.

    If the third option happens, it's a whole 'nother ball game. The bounty for 27 archons killed or captured fixes Spacerock's immediate financial issues, and with control of the skies I'd bet Trammenis decides they can retake the city. That lets this fight keep going, instead of having Spacerock retreat, and then another long setup for yet another capital city fight somewhere else.

    Which will in turn increase the drama when Parson steps out of the Magic Kingdom portal. Instead of walking into an all but inevitable victory, he's gonna have to pull GK's chestnuts out of the fire.

    As an aside, such a turnaround fixes Don King's problems, too. With a completely discredited Caesar, the other Transylvito warlords are going to be very shy of future "respectful" rebellions.

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    Last edited by CaptC on Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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