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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:33 am 
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Oberon wrote:
Caesar is treasonous. The degree can be argued, but not the fact. When you oppose, contradict, and subvert your ruler's authority, you are treasonous. You may color it loyalty to the nation, loyalty to some higher calling, or whatever other justification allows you to sleep at night. But at the end of the day, it is still treason.

No, it's not. Treason is betrayal. Caesar is voicing a loyal objection. The only one who actually even refused an order is Benjamen.
Leaders underneath a ruler are SUPPOSED to voice objections to plans that they think will not work.

If the Joint Chiefs of Staff were to argue against an order to invade a country (due to lack of resources and the country not currently posing as a threat), and this rejection was given in private to the President, would you accuse them of treason?
If you would, you should consider revising your personal definition of treason to match the common use.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:25 am 
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    From dictionary.com:
    Treason:

    1.
    the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
    2.
    a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
    3.
    the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

    I don't see it.

    1: Caesar certainly isn't trying to overthrow the government or harm the sovereign.
    2: It's either be loyal to the ruler or be loyal to the state. While technically in a situation such as this where being one is being disloyal to the other treason is impossible to forgo, somehow I don't think that that was your point. Caesar is loyal to the state, and to Don. His allegiance is to the state first and foremost. He is also loyal to Don, but the state is obviously his first priority. It has been shown previously with Wanda (in the "promoting another pretty boy" part in the comic) that orders may be disobeyed if the unit is certain that it will lead to the destruction of the side. The side and the ruler are closely connected, but not the same thing.
    3: Caesar didn't betray anything or anyone. He gave his asked for opinion to Benjamin.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:17 am 
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    Fannin wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    The facts of the matter are that Caesar is so horribly short sighted that he shouldn't even be opening his yap when discussing anything other than the fight right in front of him. And by now you might think that the other TV warlords would have recognized this in Caesar. It's kind of sad that they haven't.


    The other warlords in the room seem to agree with the assessment, making the loan may keep GK away a little longer but since their side is hanging on by a thread the loan would also push them over the edge. It's important to note they are currently engaged in a conflict with Carpool that they are losing due to insufficient resources, if they empty the treasury and can't meet upkeep then the situation becomes worse. Remember, when you can't meet upkeep you cannot chose which units are disbanded so this might mean they lose half their doombats or they lose one or both of their casters.

    Dr Pepper wrote:
    Urf wrote:
    Can sides merge?

    The notion of Don harvesting himself to make the gold Slately needs led me to imagine a mechanic by which losing sides could pool resources. Don harvests, Slately promotes and detonates, leaving Tram as the heir to both Jetstone and Transylvito. The deceased Rulers get a Royal Prince to lead them, screw over Caesar's bid for leadership, and WE get Trammenis in charge of a potentially powerful and dramatic side.


    Hmm. Sides split by spinning off subordinate rulers into independence. I imagine they could merge by having an independent ruler accept subordination to another. This would be like one step beyond vassalage but not quite annexation. So the side that joins gets the livery change to the side joined to, but keeps whatever is unique about its units. Of course once the idea is proposed i imagine there would be much disagreement over who shall be the joiner and who the joined.


    The new combined side would also be bankrupt and under attack from multiple fronts (GK and Carpool) so while it might be ideal from Don and Slately's perspective it would turn 2 vulnerable sides with 2 seperate rulers into a single vulnerable side with 1 ruler so it might just make a decapitation strike easier.


    Yes, but it's the Royal thing to do. And who knows how much a harvested Ruler amounts to? Turn both Rulers to coin, raze some JS cities, and reduce defense spending for a turn, TranStone might be okay. Parson wants to save his people first and foremost —he doesn't want another annihilation. He won't go after Tramennis, should he get promoted and escape. If Parson gets a single update of dialog with Slately, he'll hesitate doing ANYTHING.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:36 am 
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    Thinking about it from Don's perspective I could conceivably see Caeser's action as sort of a personal betrayal if you only look at it from an emotional perspective, Caeser knows that he is basically forcing Don to refuse his friend's last request after all. From a practical perspective he is demonstrating loyalty by doing this since he is convinced the loan will lead to the distruction of Don and their side, but I can see how a person could argue this is a betrayal from a certain point of view.

    I personally think Caeser telling Don that he is making a mistake despite knowing it can lead to his immediate disbanding is true loyalty, he is telling Don what he believes to be the truth knowing it may have severe consequences to himself.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:38 am 
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    Wanda is about to capture a Capital city, with an almost entirely decrypted army entirely loyal to her.

    I'm getting a very strong feeling that she is going to "capture" Parson when he comes through the portal, then claim Jetstone as her new capital.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:52 am 
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    djones520 wrote:
    Wanda is about to capture a Capital city, with an almost entirely decrypted army entirely loyal to her.

    I'm getting a very strong feeling that she is going to "capture" Parson when he comes through the portal, then claim Jetstone as her new capital.


    That would definitely add some clarity to the spliting of sides mechanic, at the moment we don't have much information besides it is something Royal empires can do. Wanda is neither Royal nor an heir so it will be interesting to see if she can claim a city.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:57 am 
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    Fannin wrote:
    djones520 wrote:
    Wanda is about to capture a Capital city, with an almost entirely decrypted army entirely loyal to her.

    I'm getting a very strong feeling that she is going to "capture" Parson when he comes through the portal, then claim Jetstone as her new capital.


    That would definitely add some clarity to the spliting of sides mechanic, at the moment we don't have much information besides it is something Royal empires can do. Wanda is neither Royal nor an heir so it will be interesting to see if she can claim a city.


    Correct on both counts, but going by her livery and the decrypted units loyalty to her, i'd almost think she's a side unto herself.

    It begs the question, how did Charlsecomm come into being? Did he use the Arkendish to capture his own side?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:24 pm 
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    Heh, I was thinking it would be Parson who ended up with his own side.

    Unless he captures that jetpack, he is going to have a very, very long walk back to GK. It's multiple turns by dwagon relay, but we don't know if Parson can mount dwagons after his upgrade to field unit. (Did it fail because he's a 'heavy', because he was a garrison unit, or because it wasn't his side's turn when he tried?)


    Wanda isn't going to leave Stanley, since she wants to keep the tools together.



    Edit: I think the entire forum agrees: BlandCo's avatar wins the entire Internet.

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    Last edited by Beeskee on Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:24 pm 
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    Operation Harvest the Don :-(

    I wasn't aware of the nonspeaking unit rule. I suppose a workaround would be personal demotion, similar to Parson's promotion to field unit. Ah well, I'm sure everything will work out. I just like to imagine worlds with the biggest amount of UOY KCUF.

    Wanda won't leave Stanley's side. They are both instruments of Fate.

    I'm of the belief that Charlie was the first perfect Warlord created. The Summon Perfect Warlord spell is meant to topple Charlie and change the world.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:26 pm 
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    reignofevil wrote:
    The only issue with "operation harvest the don" or what have you, is that you can ONLY harvest nonspeaking units.

    Bunny? Foreshadowing includes the fact that Easter is right around the corner, marshmallow Peeps, BLANDCorporatio's avatar, and the fact a (moderate-to-high level?) caster would most definitely harvest for more than a fat slob who's still level one.

    Also, if a unit lost their tongue, would they also lose the 'talking' ability and then become harvest-able? Cannibalism never tasted so interesting before...but maybe that's where Archon Food Cake comes from? Mute Archons.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:30 pm 
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    There is no reason she can't remain allied with Stanley. Charles by definition is a "Tool" as well, but we don't see her making any serious overtures to him, yet atleast. She is more then aware of Stanley's shortcomings and has been frequently frustrated by them. We know she has no "loyalty" to him, and would probably relish the idea of being able to make her own decisions. The only thing aside from the Hammer really binding her to him is Parson. With Parson in her city, that would be one less thing. She could conceivable make Stanley her pawn once he no longer has Parson to counter her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:46 pm 
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    As long as Charlie has a bunch of sides to play against each other and make a profit from, he won't ally with anyone permanently. Wanda knows GK needs to take out everyone else before they can deal with him, one way or another.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:39 pm 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    It's multiple turns by dwagon relay, but we don't know if Parson can mount dwagons after his upgrade to field unit. (Did it fail because he's a 'heavy', because he was a garrison unit, or because it wasn't his side's turn when he tried?)


    I think the whole promoting-hobgobwins-to-heavy thing indicates Parson's inability to ride dragons was due to his heavy classification, though we'll know 100% whether or not he's a heavy when we get to Parson setting off the dirtamancy trap (or not setting it off).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:44 pm 
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    In a hilarious turn of events, Sizemore wasn't focusing when he set the trap in front of GK's portal, and when Parson steps out and sets it off, instead of falling down into the tunnel, he's catapulted into the air!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:00 pm 
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    imany wrote:
    I think the whole promoting-hobgobwins-to-heavy thing indicates Parson's inability to ride dragons was due to his heavy classification, though we'll know 100% whether or not he's a heavy when we get to Parson setting off the dirtamancy trap (or not setting it off).


    Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the 'heavy' thing, just not 100% sure... :D

    I'm willing to bet megalogwiffons can carry heavies. I wonder if there is an 'upgraded' dwagon...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:14 pm 
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    djones520 wrote:
    Wanda is about to capture a Capital city, with an almost entirely decrypted army entirely loyal to her.

    I'm getting a very strong feeling that she is going to "capture" Parson when he comes through the portal, then claim Jetstone as her new capital.


    Wanda's goal is to unite the Arkentools. I doubt very much she'll split with Stanley while he's got the hammer and as long as he can be successfully circumvented when he gets in the way, especially since he has the same goal she does (albeit for different reasons). Splitting with GK would go against everything Wanda believes in and is trying to accomplish, so I am confident your speculation is wrong.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:47 pm 
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    that one warlord really looks like ossomer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:20 pm 
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    Goshen wrote:
    And where, oh where is Vinnie!??? I've had a crush on him since the middle of book one and I'm not gettin' my Vinnie fix. :(


    Vinnie's in Faq. That's where we last saw him when Jillian left to go to Spacerock.

    On another note, nobody's mentioned how Benny's got his cool, pimpin' stripes back! He temporarily lost them several pages ago.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:30 pm 
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    One thing I don't get is why people keep talking about how the loan will have any impact on whether or not Jetstone survives this turn. The only thing that will change is the loan is made is Trem will be leading Jetstone, and they'll still most likely be destroyed in short order, but certainly not this turn. They have multiple cities to fall back to. Barring an act of deliberate suicide there is virtually no chance that Jetstone falls this turn. And if they do it will have nothing to do with the loan. Now if Trem had managed to escape and Slately was captured and about to be croaked, then yeah the loan would save the side. But right now the loan is only to let Slately change who the heir is. And considering that Slately could raze one of their extra cities to get the Smuckers to name Trem heir there are other options.

    Ceaser's duty is clearly to his side, and as near as I can tell Don doesn't really give a crap about his side as he makes no real effort to advance the interests of TV and has seemingly deliberately weakened it. Do Rulers not have any Duty?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:56 pm 
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    Slately realizes he doesn't have what it takes. That's why it's the end of Jetstone.

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