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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:53 pm 
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Can sides merge?

The notion of Don harvesting himself to make the gold Slately needs led me to imagine a mechanic by which losing sides could pool resources. Don harvests, Slately promotes and detonates, leaving Tram as the heir to both Jetstone and Transylvito. The deceased Rulers get a Royal Prince to lead them, screw over Caesar's bid for leadership, and WE get Trammenis in charge of a potentially powerful and dramatic side.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:23 pm 
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    Urf wrote:
    Can sides merge?

    The notion of Don harvesting himself to make the gold Slately needs led me to imagine a mechanic by which losing sides could pool resources. Don harvests, Slately promotes and detonates, leaving Tram as the heir to both Jetstone and Transylvito. The deceased Rulers get a Royal Prince to lead them, screw over Caesar's bid for leadership, and WE get Trammenis in charge of a potentially powerful and dramatic side.



    Harvest? Like... for food... as opposed to disband?

    And in this brilliant cannibalistic theory... who would get to eat a ration of cooked Don?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:28 pm 
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    The saddest part for me was how he rectified his speech to add respect.

    wrecan wrote:
    [*]Bunny (name based on a television's rabbit ears and Playboy Bunnies; appearance seems to be My Cousin Vinny's Marisa Tomei
    [*]Vinny Doombats (name based on My Cousin Vinny; appearance? no idea)


    I heard Myth, Inc. had a saying that behind every don there's a super-smart girl named Bunny making everything work.

    And 'Goombatz' may be a useful search point.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:45 pm 
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    Roketter wrote:
    I think Tramennis will get his archers to help him kill the archons and get the flying artifact to go capture the last one himself... wich will mean he'll have an air fight with his own brother and his dwagon over it -Dont you think it's strange no one ordered him to slay his dwagon to gain leadership for the battle downstairs after negotiations or got killed by jetstone ? the only reason that didn't happen is the PLOT!-.


    Plot...plus the fact that Ossomer's dwagon is a rolled-up flying carpet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:16 pm 
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    wrecan wrote:
    @ BCCroaker: They don't appear to be. The only Transylvitians we know of are:

    • Don King (name based on boxing promoter, appearance based on Godfather's Don Corleone).
    • Caesar Borgata (came based on Caesar Borgia, and some Las Vegas hotels; appearance appears to be Spike from Buffy)
    • Benjamin (name and appearance based on Benjamin Franklin)
    • Al Frappucino (name based on Al Pacino and a coffee drink; appearance...I have no idea.)
    • Bunny (name based on a television's rabbit ears and Playboy Bunnies; appearance seems to be My Cousin Vinny's Marisa Tomei
    • Vinny Doombats (name based on My Cousin Vinny; appearance? no idea)
    • Dewy Tulips (name is a pun; appearance? no idea.)
    • Leather Valese (name is a pun for a money bag, appearance is a generic Italian)
    The remaining folks have not received names and are known informally as "Muscles", "Red" (due to color of blouse), "Baldy", and "Blondie".

    Oh, and the three known croaked Transylvitians are "Broadway Tony" (not based on anybody in particular, except that Broadway is indeed dead), King County (Don King's predecessor, and also the name of the New York County where Brooklyn is located), and a warlord who looked like Mario from the videogames.


    Just out of curiousity (since this has been bugging me for some time), how do we know Mario-guy got croaked? (I'm assuming it was at the pass, and I don't see anything to imply it - though maybe my eyes aren't sharp enough... :P )

    ===================================

    With respect to razing a city for funds... there's a very ornate, likely very valuable Level Five city with plenty of warlords - even the Ruler! - present...

    What happens to Wanda & co. if Spacerock gets razed underneath (or on top of) them?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:21 pm 
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    WaterMonkey314 wrote:
    Just out of curiousity (since this has been bugging me for some time), how do we know Mario-guy got croaked? (I'm assuming it was at the pass, and I don't see anything to imply it - though maybe my eyes aren't sharp enough... :P )

    Well, he was fighting Vurp, and Vurp survived... so we conclude that he didn't make it. (Plus he wasn't seen in the subsequent scenes with Caesar and Jillian.)
    Quote:
    With respect to razing a city for funds... there's a very ornate, likely very valuable Level Five city with plenty of warlords - even the Ruler! - present...

    What happens to Wanda & co. if Spacerock gets razed underneath (or on top of) them?

    There's some doubt as to whether you can raze a contested city (otherwise presumably it would happen all the time, to deny spoils to the attacker).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:33 pm 
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    abb3w wrote:
    wrecan wrote:
    [*]Vinny Doombats (name based on My Cousin Vinny; appearance? no idea)

    At a guess, a mix between the trenchcoated "Spike" from Buffy :twisted: , and the Fonz from Happy Days. 8-)

    I think you mean Angel. Caesar is clearly the Spike to Vinny's Angel.

    Ooh! I wonder if this means that eventually Caesar will fall in love with Jillian, have a fling with her, get less awesome, and be totally hung up on her for the rest of the comic? :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:41 pm 
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    And once again, Caesar proves that he needs to be disbanded at the first opportunity.
    No one in particular wrote:
    From Caesar's perspective, it doesn't matter what Transylvito does. Jetstone is going to fall. Not if. Barely even when. After today, Jetstone will be nothing but a memory. Making the loan will not stop this.

    As he sees it, the choices aren't "make the loan, save Jetstone and go bankrupt" and "keep the money and watch Jetstone fall"... they're "watch Jetstone fall" and "watch Jetstone fall, with a bunch of our money."

    To Caesar, it's sad, but they're already dead.
    The facts of the matter are that Caesar is so horribly short sighted that he shouldn't even be opening his yap when discussing anything other than the fight right in front of him. And by now you might think that the other TV warlords would have recognized this in Caesar. It's kind of sad that they haven't.
    Sygerrik wrote:
    Financing Jetstone would be a sentimental but very, very dumb decision. Also, not sure what's the deal with Don getting all choked up over Slately, since Slately was planning to die this turn ANYWAYS, even if he DID get the loan.
    Slately actually made it quite clear that he wasn't looking to disband himself. Just to place himself in harms way to secure the exit for Tram that Tram had intended to secure for himself. Slately isn't being strictly suicidal, he is just looking to be noble by risking himself for someone who he now sees as being the better man, the better noble, despite Tram being a— If his Signamancy is less...than manly.
    kreszantas wrote:
    The statements given both by Caesar and Benny were needed to bring Don back "home" what they were saying is, if you do this, GK gets two sides not just one this turn.
    See now, that's just the sort of short sightedness that Caesar embodies. GK is looking for allies. They need allies. They have asked at least Unaroyal and Jetstone to ally with them. Were TV to ally with GK, not only would TV not be attacked by GK, but there could be some kind of lend-lease or one time payment made for that alliance. After all, GK is clearly desperate to make royal allies in order to bolster their toolist mandate and discredit the prior royal mandate thinking. This can be a bargaining chip for even the poorest of royals. But only once, as getting the first royal ally is a pendulum swinger that can justify extraordinary expenses. The first royal side to opt in may get plenty of benefits which are denied to any additional royal allies. This is something which Caesar would never see, but which Don King would grasp immediately.
    ColdFury wrote:
    Too much character development has gone into Tramennis for him to fall in this story arc.
    Plenty of authors write to the anyone can die trope. While not completely commonplace in this comic, Ansom, Bogroll, Jaclyn, Webinar and Dora, and Misty were all casualties of the story. You assume at your risk that any given character cannot die.
    MoredanKantose wrote:
    I don't think [Caesar] is thinking about any kind of treason.
    Caesar is treasonous. The degree can be argued, but not the fact. When you oppose, contradict, and subvert your ruler's authority, you are treasonous. You may color it loyalty to the nation, loyalty to some higher calling, or whatever other justification allows you to sleep at night. But at the end of the day, it is still treason.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:00 pm 
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    Limiate wrote:
    Charlie as the savior? I think not.

    Tramennis is a shrewd diplomat and will preserve their side after being abandoned by their "allies."

    My speculation: Parson will be the savior. Final battle happens, it's down to the end for Jetstone and either through parlay or talking in combat or something, Tramennis and Parson meet and talk. Wanda is really anxious to end the battle and wipe their side but Parson's newfound anti-ruthlessness stops him from wiping them out and fullfilling his hippiemancer/predictmancer prophecy.

    Somehow Jestone and GK either become allies or agree not to fight anymore. My additional guess? At the end of this book, Tramennis and Parson agree to take down Charlie.

    I second this. It would be a good story arc, in any case.

    Also, if Don is going to get rid of Ceasar, he's going to do it in some way to minimize the negative fallout. Of course, it would have been gangland drama if Don had disbanded ceasar right then and there, but I like how Rob wrote it better.

    And where, oh where is Vinnie!??? I've had a crush on him since the middle of book one and I'm not gettin' my Vinnie fix. :(

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:09 pm 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    I'm sure he would normally be able to get someone from the magic kingdom but what if the Parson kerfluffle causes the magic kingdom to close its borders?
    Close it's borders? Those borders are magical gates created by the Titans... There would be little indication that such borders could be closed. Blockaded, sure. Casters are potent but fragile, but the attackers would be outnumbered and similarly potent but fragile units. They would also be able to attack on their own schedule, without turns regulating the pulse of battle. And they would be able to buff to the max before hopping in to fight. I won't speculate over who would be the winner of such an unconventional war. I'd lust like to see it played out, as long as it was done logically and consistently. As per David Weber and Linda Evans' Hell's Gate series.
    Roketter wrote:
    Ossomer's the first decrypted we've seen experiencing serious loyalty issues, so we might get an update on that while he and Tramenis fight.
    I think you must have missed all of Ansom's loyalty issues.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:18 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    The facts of the matter are that Caesar is so horribly short sighted that he shouldn't even be opening his yap when discussing anything other than the fight right in front of him. And by now you might think that the other TV warlords would have recognized this in Caesar. It's kind of sad that they haven't.
    I don't really see where you're coming from on this. If your business is struggling, and your friend's business is struggling and on fire, now isn't really the best time to be investing. And while they may not be close friends like Jetstone was, there ARE other sides that TV can ally with, that aren't about to Fall or are asking for all their money.

    Oberon wrote:
    Caesar is treasonous. The degree can be argued, but not the fact. When you oppose, contradict, and subvert your ruler's authority, you are treasonous. You may color it loyalty to the nation, loyalty to some higher calling, or whatever other justification allows you to sleep at night. But at the end of the day, it is still treason.
    I would argue something like tough love here... or tough duty, I guess. If you love someone, you don't necessarily want what they want, you want what's best for them. A kid might want to eat nothing but candy and ice cream, but a parent will tell them no and make them have vegetables. An alcoholic might want a drink, but friends and loved ones will tell them no and stage an intervention. Caesar here honestly, truly believes that they cannot afford this loan. If they make it, production on new units would have to be stopped, old units would have to be disbanded... units that TV's going to need badly if they want any hope for the coming fight with GK. Hell, that might be the real conflict right there: Don's wishes range all over the place, including TV's prosperity, to destroy GK, to pop an heir, TV's survival, to make this gesture, to ride a unipegataur... and Duty makes Caesar want to use his initiative to serve Don the best he can. If he allows Don to make this gesture, the rest of those wishes will be impossible. "When your Ruler's wishes are mutually exclusive, you gotta go with the one that doesn't end up with everyone croaked," Caesar figures.

    Oberon wrote:
    Close it's borders? Those borders are magical gates created by the Titans... There would be little indication that such borders could be closed. Blockaded, sure. Casters are potent but fragile, but the attackers would be outnumbered and similarly potent but fragile units. They would also be able to attack on their own schedule, without turns regulating the pulse of battle. And they would be able to buff to the max before hopping in to fight. I won't speculate over who would be the winner of such an unconventional war. I'd lust like to see it played out, as long as it was done logically and consistently. As per David Weber and Linda Evans' Hell's Gate series.
    Do we have any proof that they're Titan-made? Other than being CG and in color in the text updates? Whatever, not important! Regarding defending the portals, two words: pit traps. Just call up a dirtamancer or two and have them dig holes in front of every portal.* Even if invaders are promoted to heavy to survive the fall, they still can't climb out. Boom, instant prisoners!


    *Spikes optional

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:29 pm 
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    fractal wrote:
    WaterMonkey314 wrote:
    With respect to razing a city for funds... there's a very ornate, likely very valuable Level Five city with plenty of warlords - even the Ruler! - present...

    What happens to Wanda & co. if Spacerock gets razed underneath (or on top of) them?

    There's some doubt as to whether you can raze a contested city (otherwise presumably it would happen all the time, to deny spoils to the attacker).

    I put a bit of thought into this back in July of last year... It took me a while to dig through my posts, but I found it. Hahaha. It's in the Page 37 discussion thread...on page five, to be exact. It's remarkably accurate, (even if the motivations don't hold with the story as-is), so I'm gonna pat myself on the back. lol.
    Spoiler: show
    Atomic wrote:
    All of the Dwagons/Warlords/Wanda/Jack have landed with mixed results (even if Wanda doesn't have to land, it's a poor decision to leave her alone in the sky above Jetstone)... To be honest, I doubt we can *really* predict which units of Gobwin Knob are going to make it and which aren't, but the ones that survived will probably be butchering Jetstone's troops due to the clever tactic Parson's about to pull. S[l]ately's gonna get trapped in his tower with enemy units closing in; and that's when he realizes he's booped and makes a decision worthy of his crown... and for the good of his side, nonetheless!

    S[l]ately sacks the capital and uses the shmuckers to appoint Tramennis as heir... Immediately following, he tells Tramennis to take the (four) casters and (four) Warlords to hop on the (nine) Unipegataurs their side has, and sends 'em out of the city. Probably to Dhyrstone. Following that, he pulls a Queen Bea: disbands all of the units in the city then books a one way ticket to the Magic Kingdom. Quasi-victory for Gobwin Knob, but Jetstone lives to fight another day!

    As far as razing a city? It's close enough to what Parson did in Book 1, so I guess I fail to see the difference. I'm a believer that Parson kept the city intact for the purposes of escape via portal...then again, given that it wasn't his turn... maybe he couldn't even raze the city. I dunno.

    The only (possible) restriction we've seen about razing cities is that, so far, it's only been done on-turn... If that's the case, then it'd rarely be a viable strategy. I mean, you could try a 'scorched earth' tactic, but cities could still be built on the old sites. In fact, from most of what we've seen, people are content to put up small fights at every city along the way to their capital. On that same vein, if a side sacks handfuls of their cities, it'll leave no resistance for an invading army to face, making it easier to reach the capital...which would have most of the funding for your razed cities still inside, unless you spent your treasury to promote units, which would leave you bankrupt and city-less, anyway.

    I honestly think it'll come down to Spacerock (given recent developments, I think it'll be Tramennis, not Slately) being razed for promotion funds/denying Gobwin Knob all those units and the city itself. I could easily be wrong, but I stand by it being a viable strategy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:47 pm 
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    First time I've seen menice in Don's face, "Yeah they are." so ominous.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:12 am 
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    Urf wrote:
    Can sides merge?

    The notion of Don harvesting himself to make the gold Slately needs led me to imagine a mechanic by which losing sides could pool resources. Don harvests, Slately promotes and detonates, leaving Tram as the heir to both Jetstone and Transylvito. The deceased Rulers get a Royal Prince to lead them, screw over Caesar's bid for leadership, and WE get Trammenis in charge of a potentially powerful and dramatic side.


    Hmm. Sides split by spinning off subordinate rulers into independence. I imagine they could merge by having an independent ruler accept subordination to another. This would be like one step beyond vassalage but not quite annexation. So the side that joins gets the livery change to the side joined to, but keeps whatever is unique about its units. Of course once the idea is proposed i imagine there would be much disagreement over who shall be the joiner and who the joined.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:24 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    The facts of the matter are that Caesar is so horribly short sighted that he shouldn't even be opening his yap when discussing anything other than the fight right in front of him. And by now you might think that the other TV warlords would have recognized this in Caesar. It's kind of sad that they haven't.


    The other warlords in the room seem to agree with the assessment, making the loan may keep GK away a little longer but since their side is hanging on by a thread the loan would also push them over the edge. It's important to note they are currently engaged in a conflict with Carpool that they are losing due to insufficient resources, if they empty the treasury and can't meet upkeep then the situation becomes worse. Remember, when you can't meet upkeep you cannot chose which units are disbanded so this might mean they lose half their doombats or they lose one or both of their casters.

    Dr Pepper wrote:
    Urf wrote:
    Can sides merge?

    The notion of Don harvesting himself to make the gold Slately needs led me to imagine a mechanic by which losing sides could pool resources. Don harvests, Slately promotes and detonates, leaving Tram as the heir to both Jetstone and Transylvito. The deceased Rulers get a Royal Prince to lead them, screw over Caesar's bid for leadership, and WE get Trammenis in charge of a potentially powerful and dramatic side.


    Hmm. Sides split by spinning off subordinate rulers into independence. I imagine they could merge by having an independent ruler accept subordination to another. This would be like one step beyond vassalage but not quite annexation. So the side that joins gets the livery change to the side joined to, but keeps whatever is unique about its units. Of course once the idea is proposed i imagine there would be much disagreement over who shall be the joiner and who the joined.


    The new combined side would also be bankrupt and under attack from multiple fronts (GK and Carpool) so while it might be ideal from Don and Slately's perspective it would turn 2 vulnerable sides with 2 seperate rulers into a single vulnerable side with 1 ruler so it might just make a decapitation strike easier.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:17 am 
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    wrecan wrote:
    [*]Al Frappucino (name based on Al Pacino and a coffee drink; appearance...I have no idea.)

    He's based on Al Capone and Tom "Big Al" Schreiter, appearance-wise.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:58 am 
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    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    Harvest? Like... for food... as opposed to disband?

    And in this brilliant cannibalistic theory... who would get to eat a ration of cooked Don?

    Image

    Mmmm, Don.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:00 am 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Ooh! I wonder if this means that eventually Caesar will fall in love with Jillian, have a fling with her, get less awesome, and be totally hung up on her for the rest of the comic? :D


    :shock:

    Oberon wrote:
    ColdFury wrote:
    Too much character development has gone into Tramennis for him to fall in this story arc.
    Plenty of authors write to the anyone can die trope. While not completely commonplace in this comic, Ansom, Bogroll, Jaclyn, Webinar and Dora, and Misty were all casualties of the story. You assume at your risk that any given character cannot die.


    Fair enough. Still, IF there were a question of ranking how likely it would be that, or how much confidence one of us would have in the belief that, Trem is going to make it, I'd say it's a reasonable bet that he will make it. It's a bet not all might want to take, but I certainly can understand those who do. Being one of them. And after all, authors who use anyone can die often do so precisely because of a character's survival being a reasonable bet.

    Turkey wrote:
    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    Harvest? Like... for food... as opposed to disband?

    And in this brilliant cannibalistic theory... who would get to eat a ration of cooked Don?

    (image spoilered for compactness of post- n. ed.)
    Spoiler: show
    Image


    Mmmm, Don.


    It's also hilarious that the poster who made this reference is called Turkey. Welcome to the fray!

    Anyways, in between Stanley fighting in the buff, so as to move like an animal and prey on their fears, and Don consigning his considerable mass to the wellfare of TV, this comic is sure taking a turn for the bizzare in our heads. I shudder to think what Rob will think of to top that in the actual updates.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:02 am 
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    Atomic wrote:
    As far as razing a city? It's close enough to what Parson did in Book 1, so I guess I fail to see the difference.

    It's not really that close. What Parson did was use external forces (collapsing tunnels, awakening volcanoes) to reduce Gobwin Knob to a level 1. If Jetstone had traps that would destroy parts of Spacerock in place, I am sure they could use them, but we have no indication of that. Razing a city is different: it implies complete destruction of the city in exchange for schmuckers. I don't think you can do that when you don't have full control of the city -- otherwise everyone would be doing it just before the city falls. I suppose it is possible that this is enforced by means of making it impossible to raze cities off-turn, but I would not believe that statement without further evidence.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 59
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:21 am 
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    Slately would know through natural thinkamancy that units were dying in the dungeons. He should also know from Tramennis, very shortly, that Wanda is no longer in the atrium.

    If he's clever enough, and desperate enough, he could raze every goddamn city he possibly can and hire a bunch of Shockamancers (Tri-linked?) to come blasting through the portal. Once Wanda and Jack are out of the picture, he's got four casters to GK's none, and that should be winnable on almost any conditions.

    Plus I'd love to see just a tiny pair of disembodied hands discreetly nudge through the portal, then spew death upon all.

    _________________
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