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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Just a wild guess here, but I've been wondering if Parson "counts" as a caster because he's been wearing the Mathemancy Bracer. And even wilder speculation, would wielding the Arkenhammer be enough for Stanley to count as a caster?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:20 pm 
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    We dunno if he's a full caster. But he didn't disband when he entered the MK, so either he's s dormant caster or his unique nature means that condition didn't work on him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:33 pm 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    We dunno if he's a full caster. But he didn't disband when he entered the MK, so either he's s dormant caster or his unique nature means that condition didn't work on him.


    Ah, I apologize for being unclear. I was trying to suggest a third possibility - that the Mathemancy Bracer grants Mathemancy to a unit in that same way that Ace's Jetpack grants Flying to a Commander. The Bracer may be one of a few if not the only known object that can grant Caster-type Specials, which would help explain its incredible price. There's no support for this really, so it's a wild guess as I've said. But it would explain why Parson could go through the Portal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:36 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Your reference is exactly why Parson being a caster is in doubt. Casters are listed as being casters. Casters are seen to be casters. Casters can cast spells. Parson does not meet any of the prior methods of determining that a unit is a caster. Additionally, we know of no other unit which is both a warlord and a caster. This is why Janis's statement that Parson is a caster is in such doubt, despite Parson being able to enter the MK without disbanding.
    Heavies are listed as heavies. Except for Parson, your first link is invalid. The second point casters cast spells? How do casters cast spells? Do they reach for some inner power they feel, strum the strings of erfworld, or whatever? Seems like in some castings they do. We KNOW some sort of knowledge is needed for at least some magicks, since new spells are made, and Sizemore was taking a class. So Parson may simply not know how to cast. Just like he didn't know the first thing about warlording. Your third point, no duel warlord/casters, Parson is a lot of things that no other Erfworld unit is. For example if he isn't a caster he is another combination we have never seen; a unit that can use MK portals and not be a caster. You can't say "There are no caster/warlords , therefore Parson, must be a non-caster/portal-user"; if there are no other non-caster/portal-users. One could use the same logic in a counter argument. "There are no non-caster/portal-users therefore Parson must be a caster/warlord".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:39 pm 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    We dunno if he's a full caster. But he didn't disband when he entered the MK, so either he's s dormant caster or his unique nature means that condition didn't work on him.
    Maybe just disbanding doesn't work on him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:47 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Point of order. Casters and Warlords both fall under the heading of Commander.
    Correct, but a non-sequiter. There is no question that both warlords and casters may be commanders. But that fact has nothing to do with the fact that Parson is identified as being a warlord, and casters are not identified as being warlords, or that no other warlord can cast spells or is identified as also being a caster.
    Housellama wrote:
    The only proof that Parson ISN'T a Caster is that he hasn't cast a spell yet.
    You must have missed my prior post, where I provided three solid pieces of evidence supporting Parson not being a caster. The only real evidence that Parson is a caster can be summed up as:
    He did not die when he passed through the portal to the MK;
    Someone said he was a caster.

    For the first, we have a mystery for sure. It supports but does not prove that Parson is a caster, and it does not make false all of the evidence to the contrary. For the second, don't believe or put credence in everything you hear, especially when that statement comes with absolutely no reason why it should be accepted. Janis cannot see Parson's stats any more than anyone else can. She had never met him before. So what makes her statement credible? Janis has never bothered to supply one single piece of evidence which backs her statement. People can lie, they can be wrong, or they can just take the easy path instead of the hard one. Calling Parson a hippymancer was the easy route which placed Parson under Janice's protection, as opposed to having to explain to the assembled casters that Janice had some serious plans for Parson, so please don't kill him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:08 am 
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    The issue about Parson being Heavy without being listed as such raises the problem of his "Special" trait. We just don't know what that means. It could mean one very special thing. It could be a sort of template: A package of traits lumped under "Special", of which heavy is one. It could mean that Parson is capable of gaining Specials like the Archons do as they level. It could just be a "Not from Erfworlf" flag. The point is that until we know what "Special" does any argument saying "Parson isn't X because he isn't listed as X or hasn't done things only X can do." can be countered with, "But he could be an X - That's what "Special" means." It's a plot device.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:46 am 
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    Something to keep in mind regarding Parson's listing in the Stupid Meal: the Stupid Meal does not give complete information. (Incomplete information: it's part of this complete breakfast!)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:13 am 
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    I don't think Parson is a caster. No, nothing in the events of the story indicate that he is not (although nothing really says that he is, either). However, Parson is supposed to be a human, from Earth. Humans from Earth can't cast spells. In my opinion, it is much better for the story if Parson solves his problems using his normal human capabilities: brilliant strategy and a clumsy, overweight body. Those are also reasonable warlord attributes. If he's just going to win out using magic, then why not summon the "Perfect Caster" from some other world?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:21 am 
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    fractal wrote:
    In my opinion, it is much better for the story if Parson solves his problems using his normal human capabilities: brilliant strategy and a clumsy, overweight body.

    It depends on what the story is. Is the story the strategic game of thrones that Janis wants Parson to break? If so, it's better he never casts and relies solely on his wits. Or is the story of a person struggling to maintain his sanity and his humanity in a world that values neither and pushes him in all manners of ways to becoming inhuman (Ruthlessness!) If the latter, then having him become a signamancer that lets him change a person's intrinsic nature (including his own) would be a quite fitting addition to the story.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:46 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Janis cannot see Parson's stats any more than anyone else can. She had never met him before. So what makes her statement credible? Janis has never bothered to supply one single piece of evidence which backs her statement.


    Given that orders, statements and intentions shape reality in Erfworld rather than the other way around, it's always possible that she gave Parson the necessary ability to move through the portals (yeah I know she only called him a Hippiemancer on-screen after he went through, but wasn't she also involved in making the original summon spell? She would have had other opportunities to name him a Hippiemancer before that point).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:28 am 
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    Oh my god. I just realized... Janis declaring Parson was a hippiemancer? That was the first on-screen demonstration of Flower Power, specifically, "quieting a battle". Janis was saying exactly the right thing, at the right time, to the right people, to prevent conflict.

    Now the question is, does Flower Power let her know the truth, or just what will prevent violence?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:09 am 
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    fractal wrote:
    However, Parson is supposed to be a human, from Earth. Humans from Earth can't cast spells.

    They can' cast spells on Earth, but Erfworld may be different because a lot of naturally occurring phenomena on Earth manifest themselves as magic in Erfworld. For example, on Earth, Parson would not grant a bonus to all units on his side. Conversely, his chance of hitting something by throwing a rock from a wall at something below would be a lot better than 1 in 5000. It is possible that one of Parson's abilities from Earth manifests itself as a form of spellcasting in Erfworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:29 am 
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    Quote:
    Given that orders, statements and intentions shape reality in Erfworld rather than the other way around, it's always possible that she gave Parson the necessary ability to move through the portals (yeah I know she only called him a Hippiemancer on-screen after he went through, but wasn't she also involved in making the original summon spell? She would have had other opportunities to name him a Hippiemancer before that point).


    I think you misunderstood the spell. It is a SUMMONING spell. It summons something to the caster. Parson was called because he matched Stanley's description. He isn't like this because he was summoned, he was summoned because of the way he is.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:49 am 
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    fractal wrote:
    I don't think Parson is a caster. No, nothing in the events of the story indicate that he is not (although nothing really says that he is, either). However, Parson is supposed to be a human, from Earth. Humans from Earth can't cast spells. In my opinion, it is much better for the story if Parson solves his problems using his normal human capabilities: brilliant strategy and a clumsy, overweight body. Those are also reasonable warlord attributes. If he's just going to win out using magic, then why not summon the "Perfect Caster" from some other world?
    He already gained one super-power when he was summoned. He has leadership. He makes units tougher and better at fighting, just by standing close to them. He could have picked up two, or even 50 new powers when he came to Erf. Although meta-story tells me 50 is too many.
    Oberon wrote:
    You must have missed my prior post, where I provided three solid pieces of evidence supporting Parson not being a caster
    Your points were not solid in the least. Your first point was the stupid meal called all of GK's casters, casters, and since Parson was not called a caster he is not a caster. But one could use the same logic to claim that Parson is not a heavy since the stupid meal called out heavies as heavies. But Parson IS a heavy. So that point is invalid.
    Your second second point, Parson does not cast spells is also invalid. Casting spells clearly requires some sort of knowledge. Sizemore was taking a class on it. Parson would not have this knowledge, in the same way he lacked the knowledge warlords come with.
    Your third point is that there are no warlord/casters. So Parson can't be a warlord caster. But there are no non-caster/portal-users. Then using your same logic I could claim, Parson can not be a non-caster/portal-user. And since he is a portal user he must be a caster. Which once again means your logic is invalid.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:47 am 
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    Parson's leadership (in Erf terms) is bupkiss, a mere 2. However, the intangible leadership (his ability to question, experiment, find exploits, and not merely regard his forces as 'units' without regard to their lives) he carries with him cannot, I believe, be expressed as a 'stat'. The loyalty he inspires isn't the result of a stat, it's how he actually relates to those around him, and the trust he inspires. His leadership isn't a number, it's deeper than that.

    This may be his 'special', in that he has these intangible qualities which are foreign to Erf. I doubt he's really a caster - just from a Plotomancy POV, that would move him well into Mary Sueland . . . But he really doesn't NEED to be a caster - he's unique in that he's trying to understand, to grok magic. He's not limited in his interests as are most popped units. Having this unique insight, being able to question the nature of the reality around him, he can (as Jack so delightedly learned) direct casters into strategems and areas they would likely never have considered on their own. And because he's interested in all areas, the synergism of being able to relate different disciplines is even more powerful. The only other Erfer who shares that quality (though, I suspect, to a lesser degree) is Charlie, though I would think that Trem would be able to learn to do this as well.

    Perhaps that's how Parson will war so terribly that he breaks war . . . he will break the paradigms of Erf. When enough people start inquiring, questioning their most basic beliefs, asking 'why' instead of 'how', as they start finding their own exploits, perhaps they'll come to realize that they can be more than merely 'units' dancing to the Titan's tunes . . .

    Therein lies the most revolutionary and erf-shattering change of all, and Parson will show them the way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:49 am 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Point of order. Casters and Warlords both fall under the heading of Commander.

    Casters can also lead troops. Chief Warlord is a title. Leadership is a special possessed by other units. Just because Parson HASN'T cast spells doesn't mean that he CAN'T cast spells. We have seen solid evidence that non-Casters die upon entering the Magic Kingdom. This appears to be a hard rule (evidenced by the comments before Parson entering the portal before GK blew up and Queen Bea's suicide). Parson passed through. Heavies cannot use mounts. Parson cannot use mounts. Parson is likely a heavy. Only Casters can pass through the portals. Parson passed through the portal. Parson is likely a Caster. One of the main plot characters stated that Parson is a Caster. QED...

    The only proof that Parson ISN'T a Caster is that he hasn't cast a spell yet. Parson is still learning the rules. He might not know that he CAN cast. We haven't seen a number of Casters cast spells on screen. Does that mean that they can't cast?

    I believe that the balance of evidence currently points to Parson being a Caster. I have yet to see solid proof that states that he ISN'T a Caster.

    Casters don't give leadership bonuses (outside their own special creatures). Parson does. To me, that is the most convincing evidence against him being a caster. This assumes that Caster and Warlord are mutually exclusive, which the whole "Special" thing may render an inaccurate assumption.

    I don't think him not casting spells is conclusive as he has only tried to cast luckamancy, not hippiemancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:50 am 
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    Is it me or are the runes and designs under the O in Erfworld on the main page very similar to the device we see under the portal?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:15 am 
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    Catalyst wrote:
    Is it me or are the runes and designs under the O in Erfworld on the main page very similar to the device we see under the portal?

    Nice catch! Yes, there does seem to be a resemblance.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:30 pm 
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    To quote Tifanny Aching, it's still magic even when you know how it's done.

    From our perspective Parson is a perfectly ordinary human, more or less.
    From Erf's perspective he may very well be a masterclass caster.

    I realise that the general debate here is based around evidence found within the updates in respect of game mechanics, but that's just mechanical debating and we're doing exactly what the people from Erf do, which is to try to define things by the rules as we know them.

    Let's take a step back and think about what we consider to be magic on Earth. Isn't magic something that works outside the laws of physics, seemingly breaking those laws with ease?
    Isn't that exacty what Parson is busy doing on Erf?

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