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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:33 pm 
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i think Parson should take a stabber or some other infantry with him to test how portal's disband mechanic works. Ah but he won't sacrifice others to test a rule now, so nevermind lol

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:08 am 
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    Smoker wrote:
    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    Smoker wrote:
    Does leadership add hits though? Otherwise we might be looking at 29 bats who can hit like Twolls but die like flies.


    The Jetstone casters thought Ossomer would make archons harder to croak if he stacked up with them, even though he'd be using them to screen himself. "The longer he lives, the tougher they are."


    Nice pick up :D
    But was Van de Graaff an ability that 'attacked' every unit in Caesar's stack, or was it an ability that 'damaged' every unit in Caesar's stack? There's a huge difference.

    From what we've seen, Leadership (and the bonuses given from Arkentools, Casters, anything else...) affects both Attack and Defense-stats, yet we haven't seen it add anything to Hits. It might, yes, but since it hasn't been pointed out to add to the number of hits, I'm one to doubt that it does.

    In my mind, the spell was always like a flamethrower... An 'AoE', if you will. I never really questioned that until I noticed the small debates springing up here'n'there... The way I pictured it, it was a powerful attack that would damage every unit in a stack. It obviously isn't an auto-kill, but I always thought it was big enough to take out all but the largest targets. And heck, that's what 'Stop! Hammertime.' seems to be for, right?

    Of course, I could be wrong...but I doubt it! :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:02 am 
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    I have to ask, was it decided that "Hammertime" is the name of that particular attack, or is this just a bit of shorthand to reference it? Because I was under the impression that Stanley was just working on his battle-cry still.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:24 am 
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    About the portals, I had an idea. (Not that I'd actually believe any of my ideas) What if the portals in portal park can link up to multiple portals, say one in each capital site. Natural thinkamancy would be used to decide which portal you exited the MK from. I mean they're literally magic portals that transport you through space, no reason they'd have to be tied to one specific location. (Also it would explain Sizemore's explanation that you don't send a caster to a city you don't control)

    About Parson. He's "special". (I think the stupid meal said so) Most units in Erfworld are popped with certain abilities, and the knowledge of how to use them. There's no learning. Maybe Parson is "special" because he can learn. Maybe he didn't disband going through the portal because he has the ability to learn to cast spells like a caster. Or maybe he'll gain abilities if he levels up? Or maybe it was the bracer, giving him mathmancer-like abilities.

    Oh the possibilities.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:22 am 
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    joosy wrote:
    I remember speculating on the number of portals in portal park when we first learned that a city can have more than one capital site.

    We know that there are specific areas in Erfworld where you can build a city. There are certain city sites that are designated capital sites.

    The questions I still have are: Is there a portal for each capital site in Erfworld in Portal Park? Or Is there a portal for each side? Can
    sides with multiple capital city sites have more than one portal?
    ...


    I'll guess we'll find out when Jetstone falls to Goblin's Knob, and the portal there either disappears, or doesn't.
    (touches wood, throws salt and spins round three times)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:25 am 
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    Atomic wrote:
    But was Van de Graaff an ability that 'attacked' every unit in Caesar's stack, or was it an ability that 'damaged' every unit in Caesar's stack? There's a huge difference...

    Do we know that Van de Graaff actually did any damage at all? It may have just been an AOE stun.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:59 am 
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    Trotsky wrote:
    Do we know that Van de Graaff actually did any damage at all? It may have just been an AOE stun.


    Still impressive for a non-caster to pull...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:28 pm 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    Trotsky wrote:
    Do we know that Van de Graaff actually did any damage at all? It may have just been an AOE stun.


    Still impressive for a non-caster to pull...

    True it is still impressive, but the distinction between killing everything and stunning everything is important when discussing relative power levels of the Tools and I am wondering if it has been established either way.

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    "Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".


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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:59 pm 
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    It probably killed the bats, caesar is alot tougher.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:16 pm 
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    I didn't see any bats around him after, and his signamancy suggests loss of hits (i.e. he looked badly scratched up).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:18 pm 
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    Catalyst wrote:
    I also reject the idea that Parson can get into the magic kingdom only because the game world does not know where to place him. It really is possible that he is a caster of some kind and he just has not learned to cast any spells yet. I think Janis claimed him as a hippymancer to avoid conflict, and perhaps because she really really wants parson to be a hippymancer.


    Uhm. Why does everyone seem to want to say that Parson ISN'T a Caster? We have one and only one reference to Parson's stats. It states that he has one Special: "Special". Other things are listed as Archer-class Infantry, Twoll Heavies, Infanty Knights, Spidew Calvary, Gobwin Fighters etc. All of those things have known Specials. You can reliably figure out what they are.

    However, we have solid evidence that Parson is considered by Erf to be a Heavy class unit (Here and Here). No one disputes that Parson is a Heavy. He wasn't listed as a Heavy. He was listed as Special. But obviously he IS a Heavy, because Erf treats him as a Heavy. So if he's not listed as a Heavy but is a Heavy, then why couldn't Janis's statement that Parson is a Hippiemancer be literally true? I believe that the Magic Kingdom is a native part of the world, that the portals are a natural thing. It's not 'magic' that allows only Casters to pass through, it's 'rules'. Parson didn't die because he actually IS a Caster. A Hippiemancer, just like Janis said. The same way that Special makes him a Heavy without actually having the Heavy modifier, he's a Caster without actually having the Caster modifier.

    Why? Because he's Special. (God I've been waiting for SO LONG to use that joke.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:45 pm 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    Ytaker wrote:
    We don't know whether having the caster special would allow an archon to enter the magic kindom.


    It's not a caster special. It's a special offering limited capability to perform some magic abilities. In D&D terms, they'd be called "Spell-like abilities". They're not actual casting, more an innate magical power. Archons are not casters, they're Knight-class units.


    I'd see it more as a prc with limited spell progression that they can enter, given that they cast several different types of spell. A spell like ability gives you the ability to cast a specific spell. As such, they may meet the requirements to enter the magic kingdom. We don't know. I'm sure Charlie would pay a lot for any information on other units with similar specials trying to enter the kingdom.

    Quote:
    It may never have been tested. Charlie does like to experiment, though.


    Quote:
    Oh yeah I'm sure the really smart people in TMK never once considered it either if it were remotely possible.

    Why does everyone assume everyone in Erfworld is a complete moron?


    Yes, there was a reason that I mentioned the thinkamancy's worry that Charlie had them over a barrel. They probably have considered it, and it probably is possible. Parson could probably calculate the probability that an archon could get in there.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:48 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    I have to ask, was it decided that "Hammertime" is the name of that particular attack, or is this just a bit of shorthand to reference it? Because I was under the impression that Stanley was just working on his battle-cry still.

    This. I don't think that is an actual spell. I've seen it referred as such before, however.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:27 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Catalyst wrote:
    I also reject the idea that Parson can get into the magic kingdom only because the game world does not know where to place him. It really is possible that he is a caster of some kind and he just has not learned to cast any spells yet. I think Janis claimed him as a hippymancer to avoid conflict, and perhaps because she really really wants parson to be a hippymancer.


    Uhm. Why does everyone seem to want to say that Parson ISN'T a Caster? We have one and only one reference to Parson's stats. It states that he has one Special: "Special". Other things are listed as Archer-class Infantry, Twoll Heavies, Infanty Knights, Spidew Calvary, Gobwin Fighters etc. All of those things have known Specials. You can reliably figure out what they are.

    However, we have solid evidence that Parson is considered by Erf to be a Heavy class unit (Here and Here). No one disputes that Parson is a Heavy. He wasn't listed as a Heavy. He was listed as Special. But obviously he IS a Heavy, because Erf treats him as a Heavy. So if he's not listed as a Heavy but is a Heavy, then why couldn't Janis's statement that Parson is a Hippiemancer be literally true? I believe that the Magic Kingdom is a native part of the world, that the portals are a natural thing. It's not 'magic' that allows only Casters to pass through, it's 'rules'. Parson didn't die because he actually IS a Caster. A Hippiemancer, just like Janis said. The same way that Special makes him a Heavy without actually having the Heavy modifier, he's a Caster without actually having the Caster modifier.

    Why? Because he's Special. (God I've been waiting for SO LONG to use that joke.)


    I completely agree with you. Thank you for using more words to say what I was trying to say. I was hoping being succinct would drive the point more effectively, but, guess not!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:48 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Catalyst wrote:
    I also reject the idea that Parson can get into the magic kingdom only because the game world does not know where to place him. It really is possible that he is a caster of some kind and he just has not learned to cast any spells yet. I think Janis claimed him as a hippymancer to avoid conflict, and perhaps because she really really wants parson to be a hippymancer.


    Uhm. Why does everyone seem to want to say that Parson ISN'T a Caster? We have one and only oOn ne reference to Parson's stats. It states that he has one Special: "Special". Other things are listed as Archer-class Infantry, Twoll Heavies, Infanty Knights, Spidew Calvary, Gobwin Fighters etc. All of those things have known Specials. You can reliably figure out what they are.


    Yes, exactly. I was saying that i think Parson really is a caster, that was my point. I'm not convinced he is a hippymancer though, i mean, it does not really seem like he is compelling anyone around him to act peaceably. On the other hand, it is not like he is shooting lightning either.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:33 pm 
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    Catalyst wrote:
    Yes, exactly. I was saying that i think Parson really is a caster, that was my point. I'm not convinced he is a hippymancer though, i mean, it does not really seem like he is compelling anyone around him to act peaceably. On the other hand, it is not like he is shooting lightning either.
    Whatever Parson is cast he may not know HOW to cast. Letst assume that gunpowder works, classical physics works ect. Erf is simply earth physics+magic. A twoll is probably is physically capable of making an AK-47, but wouldn't know how to begin in the slightest. Physically capable =! actually capable.

    I also don't think we know if Parson is truly a caster or not. (He certainly could be.) Janice is not crediable. I think two other possiblities are: 1) The portal scans units and then disband all non-caster units. Probably also has the best anti-foolamancy scanning around as well. Tries to scan Parson gets nothing and doesn't disband him. (He isn't a "non-caster".) Of course, this can't be the case if the disbanding works by say "Disbands all non-casters.", or if a rule of portals or the MK is non-casters disband. 2) Its also possible that Parson didn't get the ablity to disband when he came to erfworld. He didn't get the ability to have his stats seen when he came to erf either. Some glitch somewhere makes him non-disbandable; Stanley claimed Parson should have been disbanded, but he didn't.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:54 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:

    Uhm. Why does everyone seem to want to say that Parson ISN'T a Caster?


    Two main reasons, as far as I know.
    1) Because we've never seen him actually *cast* anything. The defining characteristic of a Caster seems to be the ability to Cast things, and Parson can't, or doesn't know how to yet.
    2) Because he's a Warlord, and everyone in this world treats Warlords and Casters as mutually exclusive categories.

    That said, the summoning spell was for a "hippiemancer Warlord", so it's at least somewhat implying that it's breaking down those categories.

    But it's not conclusive. The fact that he entered the MK - it means he could be a caster, or it means that he can't be disbanded (like when he didn't disband for disobeying Stanley's orders for no reason), or it could mean that he's just weird enough that the portals didn't know what to do or didn't work (can't see his stats). Janis referring to him as a hippiemancer could just as well have been her protecting him. "Hippiemancer warlord" doesn't have to be literal - it could simply be a Warlord who acts like a hippiemancer, doesn't mean he actually has to BE one.

    Quote:
    We have one and only one reference to Parson's stats.


    From there, we know he is a Warlord. He is, in fact, listed as Warlord, Special. Not Caster, Special. Warlord. All the other Casters that Gobwin Knob had were listed by their discipline by the Stupid Meal.

    Quote:
    then why couldn't Janis's statement that Parson is a Hippiemancer be literally true?


    It could be true. But then again, it also might not be. Just because it could be true doesn't mean it is.




    I don't think the issue has been resolved.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:11 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Uhm. Why does everyone seem to want to say that Parson ISN'T a Caster? We have one and only one reference to Parson's stats. It states that he has one Special: "Special". Other things are listed as Archer-class Infantry, Twoll Heavies, Infanty Knights, Spidew Calvary, Gobwin Fighters etc. All of those things have known Specials. You can reliably figure out what they are.
    Your reference is exactly why Parson being a caster is in doubt. Casters are listed as being casters. Casters are seen to be casters. Casters can cast spells. Parson does not meet any of the prior methods of determining that a unit is a caster. Additionally, we know of no other unit which is both a warlord and a caster. This is why Janis's statement that Parson is a caster is in such doubt, despite Parson being able to enter the MK without disbanding.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:26 pm 
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    wonmean wrote:
    No one in particular wrote:
    I have to ask, was it decided that "Hammertime" is the name of that particular attack, or is this just a bit of shorthand to reference it? Because I was under the impression that Stanley was just working on his battle-cry still.

    This. I don't think that is an actual spell. I've seen it referred as such before, however.
    Speaking only for myself here, so don't lynch me or anything, but I use it as a type of shorthand/abbreviation for the attack. It's easier to type 'Stop! Hammertime.' than to type 'The single bolt of lightning which appears to disintegrate an opponent." ... It's all about ease-of-use, really. I'm one to believe that the 'attack'/'spell'/whatever we're calling it is triggered by 'Stop! Hammertime.', but until we see it used again, it's a shaky argument at best...so I'm content to wait and see. lol.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 57
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:35 pm 
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    Point of order. Casters and Warlords both fall under the heading of Commander.

    Casters can also lead troops. Chief Warlord is a title. Leadership is a special possessed by other units. Just because Parson HASN'T cast spells doesn't mean that he CAN'T cast spells. We have seen solid evidence that non-Casters die upon entering the Magic Kingdom. This appears to be a hard rule (evidenced by the comments before Parson entering the portal before GK blew up and Queen Bea's suicide). Parson passed through. Heavies cannot use mounts. Parson cannot use mounts. Parson is likely a heavy. Only Casters can pass through the portals. Parson passed through the portal. Parson is likely a Caster. One of the main plot characters stated that Parson is a Caster. QED...

    The only proof that Parson ISN'T a Caster is that he hasn't cast a spell yet. Parson is still learning the rules. He might not know that he CAN cast. We haven't seen a number of Casters cast spells on screen. Does that mean that they can't cast?

    I believe that the balance of evidence currently points to Parson being a Caster. I have yet to see solid proof that states that he ISN'T a Caster.

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