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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:57 am 
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BakaGrappler wrote:
Krennson wrote:
the_tick_rules wrote:
Can't Don just order Ben to do it? Or was that a full on disobeyal?


either that was a full-on disobeyal, or it would have been if Don had repeated that this was a direct order.


It was a full on disobedience, since Don DID say that it was an order.


Benny didn't say no to the order, he asked why. When given more info, he went to get a second opinion.

From his perspective, it's an order that is likely to bankrupt Transylvito and possibly cause them to lose valuable units if their upkeep is not able to be paid, which might ultimately end the side.

I think i remember one of the updates saying that a broke side didn't get to choose which units disband due to failure to pay upkeep, either. So Transylvito could lose their casters and high level units, and if they do, they become easy pickings for any hostile neighbors.



I'm also a little surprised at how many people think Don should have disbanded Benny. Would you REALLY kill your friend for disagreeing with you? :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:24 am 
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    ademus05 wrote:
    Krennson wrote:
    name lips wrote:
    It looks like transfering Schmuckers isn't a trivial matter. You apparently can't, as a ruler, just declare "I hereby transfer 10000 Schmuckers to Jetstone."

    Do Schmuckers even have a physical manifestation? Are they actual coins you can pick up and manipulate? Or are they an invisible, abstract "stat" belonging to a Side? Perhaps you can only physically move around gems. And gems, once turned into Schmuckers, are intangible and unmovable. That would be why Don isn't just pouring some Schmuckers into a Hat to transfer them -- they don't exist. Whoever owns the treasury has access to them, and that's it. Maybe most sides keep some Gems lying around un-Schmuckered so they have something to trade.

    But a Moneymancer... can turn Schmuckers back into gems, so they can be transferred from Side to Side. Maybe Transylvito never keeps Gems lying around -- why would they, since Benny can just make gems whenever he wants? Part of the benefit of having a Moneymancer around, you don't have to worry about things like that.

    I'm betting he can make a gem of any value, subtracting Schmuckers from the treasury and "pouring" them into a gem. This is a magical world, so I don't see any reason why a gem would have to be larger to be worth more Schmuckers. Just toss it into a Hat, and you can transfer it to a Hat owned by a different Side. Then their ruler can turn the gem back into Schmuckers again.



    Gem size does matter, I think... if you remember the very first page of book one, and take a look at that HUGE gem and that Marbit digger's reaction, plus the fact that that one gem was worth an entire squad of axemen, big enough to be able to deliver a critical blow in a major battle, I think this is a pretty safe bet

    If you can't just transfer schmuckers to someone, how do people pay charlie? Jillian spent most of her purse buying a thinkagram from charlie once...

    And I think that any caster can create gems: all parson has told us is that it costs 'juice' to create a a gem, not that it requires a moneymancer.

    If only moneymancers can create gems, and only gems are tradeable, then most sides wouldn't be able to pay charlie, and jetstone wouldn't be able to pay transylvito back; jetstone doesn't have a moneymancer.


    I'm not certain why Don needs a gem at all.... maybe he wants to avoid the possibility that jetstones treasury will fall to Gobwin Knob in the next five minutes, taking any direct transfer with it?
    as for why he's asking a moneymancer to make the gem, instead of just having bunny do it, presumably preserving a thinkamancers juice is more important, and as the kingdom 'accountant', it's considered polite to involve Ben in all financial matters anyway.

    And remember, since Transylvito is allied with jetstone, it's still their turn at the moment... none of this is happening off-turn for them.


    I wonder if there are some rules we're not seeing about when you are and aren't allowed to transfer Schmuckers (perhaps they transfer at the start of turn only?) and that a gem is needed to transfer funds mid-battle.

    As for paying Charlie, there seems to be some evidence that contracts are binding on Erfworld. Tram suggests striking a contract with Stanley with a million Schmucker penalty. This would only make sense if such a contract is magically binding. If they weren't binding, then right now no other side would be able to enforce the contract's terms. We also know that Charlie required a contract before saving Prince Ansom. Perhaps that's how he gets paid-- he has the person sign a contract and collects his money when appropriate.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:21 pm 
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    Personally, I would bet that Dirtamancers join Moneymancers in either being the only gem-creating casters, or gaining some noteworthy bonus to the process. This may be why no single caster class was named in Parson's Klog, but why Don King still needs Benjamin, specifically.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:59 pm 
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    My opinion on the disbanding thing is that a unit's allowed to disobey a direct order if their Duty tells them that the order is destructive to the side- like Wanda back in page 5. Ben seems pretty convinced that this is a bad idea, and is disobeying Don for the good of the side.

    I think Don could disband Ben because of it, but that'd be pretty cold. Granted, Transylvito is basically the Mafia, but... still.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:13 pm 
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    This is just my guess. Maybe rulers can disband units with a thought, or if they disobey orders. But most rulers don't do it automatically because the unit might have good reasons to disobey. Reasons they might want to hear about and consider. There might be a game mechanic to it too - maybe "setting" the disbanding to automatic damages the Loyalty stat. If disbanding isn't automatic, coups would be possible by attacking before the ruler realizes what's happening and poofs you.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:41 pm 
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    I think Don can still disband him, but only in an extreme instance would he want to. croaking your moneymancer when you're almost broke is a very bad idea, so he probably just really doesn't want to use it on Ben. I dunno if disbanding is auto unless the ruler would do something like auto set the disbanding condition specifically upon them. Sure you could get the drop without an auto disband, just stab him before he knows you're after him. There have been coups so apparently it can be done. Though to be fair in saline's case the gobwins are natural allies, not direct GK units, maybe they couldn't be disbanded?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:35 pm 
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    Its not quite spelled out directly in the comic, but I think it can be pieced together pretty cleanly.

    We know that Don's son had a go at a coup.

    We know that Saline was taken down by a coup.

    We know that units should disband from directly disobeying an order.

    We know that you can get around this rule if you honestly believe its in the best interest of your side.

    We know that Wanda turned.

    We know that heirs can start new sides.

    So one of two things can happen:

    Either you feel its in the best interest of your side to croak your ruler, or you actually turn a few moments before doing it. I suppose it counts as turning barbarian, but whatever.

    Either way, you dont get disbanded automatically for disobeying an order while staging a coup.

    Now for Benny, its different. He believes its in the best interest of his side to disobey a direct order, so thats fine. Don could manually disband him if he wanted, but as its stated many times above - why would he? He needs him.


    On the topic of gems: I like the idea of Charlie's contracts being payable by gems on the next turn (or whatever future date. Maybe good customers get a certain number of turns to cough up.) and since the MK is readily available, I dont see a problem with Charlie or the client being able to get one made up. Jillian "spent" her purse, but maybe that was just chalked up as a debt, and she hadn't actually paid it yet.

    It all fits quite nicely based on what we know. It might not actually be correct, but I dont see any great holes in the comic that need filling.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:51 pm 
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    I think it would make a lot of sense if you need units with a purse in contact to trade and make payments. This explains the need for a gem: the portal can't be secured, so they need to use a gem.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:54 pm 
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    I believe there are 4 main ways that a unit can disband. One way is for the ruler to explicitly disband the unit. Another, as someone already mentioned, is if a side can't afford the upkeep of all their units some of the units will disband. Also, unit's in the field will disband if their ruler is killed.

    The 4th way is a sort of "auto-disband". In one of the summer updates from 2009, Parson unknowingly disobeyed Stanley's order to manage Gobwin Knob. Stanley was shocked that Parson didn't disband when he disobeyed that order. This would seem to indicate that a unit can automatically disband if they knowingly disobey an order.

    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE035_NoIllustration.png

    The caveat on disobeying is that a unit can do so if they believe that obeying the order will cause harm to the side. Also, as Parson showed, a unit can disobey if they do so "unknowingly". However, since Parson is the only "unit" in Erfworld that does not intrinsically understand every command given, he may be the only one who can unknowingly disobey. Every other unit understands every command, even if they don't know language.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:54 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    I think it would make a lot of sense if you need units with a purse in contact to trade and make payments. This explains the need for a gem: the portal can't be secured, so they need to use a gem.


    might make sense... you need commanders in the same hex to make financial exchanges? could work.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:42 pm 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    I'm also a little surprised at how many people think Don should have disbanded Benny. Would you REALLY kill your friend for disagreeing with you? :D
    In Don's situation? Maybe. Remember that he is the sole ruler of the side. What happens to it is his responsibility, not Benjamin's and not Caesar's. And Caesar has been outspoken in his disagreements with Don lately. If I were the king in that situation, I would not permit, by any means at my disposal, my outspoken lieutenant to be consulted about a decision which I have made for my own reason and which I know will neither be understood by nor agreed with by this lieutenant. If Benjamin gets Caesar fired up enough by presenting him with Don's request without Don's perspective, this might be the end for either Don or Caesar, and neither result is directly beneficial for Don.
    Beeskee wrote:
    I think i remember one of the updates saying that a broke side didn't get to choose which units disband due to failure to pay upkeep, either. So Transylvito could lose their casters and high level units, and if they do, they become easy pickings for any hostile neighbors.
    Jillian said when her purse was light that she had to keep a disbandment list ready. So I think it is a decision and not random.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:28 pm 
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    Could the fact that this is going to declare an heir be a factor in it needing to be a Gem? Say, for example, it has to go into a "Princes Crown" which would officially declare Tram the heir? Maybe it takes more than just schmuckers to pay for a being to be declared heir.

    Also, where's Vinny? The last I remember him was in the Summer updates. Has he made an appearance in Book 2 at all yet?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:01 pm 
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    Vinny is at Faq, running things while the queen is out breaking faces...

    Also RE: disbandment and upkeep, if you fail to maintain your upkeep, units are disbanded at random. If you choose to disband units previous to that to make upkeep, you get to choose.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:07 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    In Don's situation? Maybe. Remember that he is the sole ruler of the side. What happens to it is his responsibility, not Benjamin's and not Caesar's. And Caesar has been outspoken in his disagreements with Don lately. If I were the king in that situation, I would not permit, by any means at my disposal, my outspoken lieutenant to be consulted about a decision which I have made for my own reason and which I know will neither be understood by nor agreed with by this lieutenant.


    And how would you explain disbanding a caster to Caesar? Disbanding the caster wouldn't get you the gem, it would only feed Caesar's paranoia.

    Caesar is the only unit powerful enough to save Transylvito if they're attacked. The Don has no leverage here, he can't afford losing Caesar.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:10 pm 
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    Benjamin and the issue with Jetstone had a song going through my head...

    "B-b-b-benny and the Jets..."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:47 am 
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    Loyalty's an unknowable stat. Benny's a valuable and difficult-to-replace unit (as is Caesar). Disbanding him isn't going to get Don that gem. And disbanding units for disloyalty can't be good for the Loyalty of other marginal units, which kind of implies that there's a point of no return after which disbanding disloyal units turns into a purge that ends only when the overlord has no side left, or at least a side so badly crippled by the loss of its most valuable units that it's easy pickings for any external foes (and I'm not convinced that Don would do that... I'm pretty sure Stanley would, but I think Don would see the writing on the wall and bow out with whatever grace he could muster before he destroyed Transylvito that way).

    So the question, I think, is not so much if Don can disband Benny, but whether the point at which Don decides that Benny presents a sufficient threat to make it worth all of the costs to the side of disbanding him comes before or after the point at which Benny's Loyalty actually drops low enough that he, e.g., stacks up with an equally disloyal Chief Warlord/Heir with sufficient bonus to make doombats into effectively heavies and one-shots Don before he can form the order to disband him... for the good of the side, of course. Or stands around and watches while any one, or several, of those other disloyal warlords do the same thing, with or without Caesar's active participation.

    You think if Don concluded that his entire leadership corps was against him, that he'd disband the lot of them? Or disband Caesar and leave Transylvito heirless and Benny and the Jets^H^H^H^Hwarlords even more pissed, and even less Loyal, but with no option but to follow him at least until the new heir pops? Especially if Caesar is not actively involved in the rebellion? He could, he might, but I don't think he would.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:26 am 
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    btw. it doesn't seem as if anybody has mentioned it,but Caesar is not likely to overthrow the Don just because Gaius Julius did it.
    His full name is Caesar Borgata, which, if you ask me, resembles more Cesare Borgia than Gaius Julius Caesar. And he is known for his tactical shrewdness, but not for backstabbing his superiors. Oh and also he is likely to die young...
    Image

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:37 am 
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    NOW I GET IT! Exactly what was nagging at me about the symmetric pattern of panel 1 and 2! I think I finally understand the final portion of the genius of those two panels and their scripting! Every time a member of the Decrypted front line Stack goes down, the dead from Jetstone are immediately raised and take their place in the stack! That is why Baron Antium is so far ahead, but with the casualties from Panel 1, Decrypted and right behind him! Because they are replacing the front line they themselves defeated, not just that they were added to Wanda's force.

    Man, that is a brain bender.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:29 am 
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    Smoker wrote:

    On the topic of gems: I like the idea of Charlie's contracts being payable by gems on the next turn (or whatever future date. Maybe good customers get a certain number of turns to cough up.) and since the MK is readily available, I dont see a problem with Charlie or the client being able to get one made up. Jillian "spent" her purse, but maybe that was just chalked up as a debt, and she hadn't actually paid it yet.

    It all fits quite nicely based on what we know. It might not actually be correct, but I dont see any great holes in the comic that need filling.


    Well it would have been nice to have gotten some clarification back in the summer.

    King Slately paced the floor in his throneroom. His son Ossamer, the new Chief Warlord, followed him at a discreet distance. "It is unconscionable!" he thundered for about the 12th time. "Unconscionable! Get a moneymancer! Get a weirdomancer from the Magic Kingdom! There's got to be a way out of this."

    Ossamer let him brood in silence for a few minutes. As a warrior, he liked things clear and direct. To fight or retreat. To hold firm, attack, or pursue. To scout enemy locations, or wait in ambush. The doings of moneymancers and the workings of contracts were a mystery to him, best left to the experts.

    "Sire" he began. Calling Slately `father' would not be appropriate at this time. "Sire, i have already spoken to the Transylvito moneymancer Benny. He says that there is no way out. Until 25% of the debt is paid off, we can't pop anything new or perform any upgrades. All the shmuckers we produce over the cost of basic maintenance go to Charlie's treasury, not ours. For the next 25%, Charlie gets half our production, and after that he gets a quarter of it until the debt is cleared. That's called a lien. Even if our side were disbanded, Charlie would automatically get the recovery value, up to the total amount still outstanding." Ossamer made a face, using mancy speak made his jaw ache. "Also, according to Benny, with the help of a weirdomancer, a moneymancer could temporarily stop the payments to Charlie, but only by stopping our ability to spend shmuckers on anything. Including maintenance."

    Slately shook his head. "It just isn't right. If Charlie had any decency, he'd cancel the contract! He should be ashamed to take payment under these-- circumstances."

    Ossamer knew what he meant. He was referring to the current, unspeakable status of Ansom. It was Ansom, as Chief Warlord, who had incurred the debt. For Charlie's part, he was supposed to help. Well what kind of help was that, that allowed such an outcome? Charlie could and did take refuge in the claim that he had exactly those things that he had promised, useless as they were. It was a case of `Letter and Sprit', Benny had said, another difficult term. Ossamer knew a simple term: `honor'. It was something Charlie would never understand.

    "Sire? I have to go now. I need to see to the defence of Gizzurdstone." Taking silence for consent, he left the room.


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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:54 am 
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    Dr Pepper wrote:
    1. I was right, there are multiple Scarlets.


    Unaroyal was a side-full of 'em, apparently.

    Dr Pepper wrote:
    Ossamer let him brood in silence for a few minutes. As a warrior, he liked things clear and direct. To fight or retreat. To hold firm, attack, or pursue. To scout enemy locations, or wait in ambush. The doings of moneymancers and the workings of contracts were a mystery to him, best left to the experts.


    Nice bit of fic aside (thumbs up btw), I would not be surprised to find out that Ossomer is actually a master at weirdomancy (or whatever is the mancy of changing things into other things).

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