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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:38 am 
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Menlo Marseilles wrote:
[...] tools.

HOLY CARP! It's the Arkenpliers, right there in the banner at the top! :shock:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:15 am 
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    The airborne forces are weaker now then before the drop, when Jetstone could have wiped them out (without the forces in the atrium). It should be trivial to mop up what is left and escape via jetpack.

    Tremminis wants to escape the city with as much of his army as possible; he doesn't want to survive, he wants to win, and his plans reflect that. Since Wanda and Jack will be attacking the dungeon next, escaping the city from the tower will be easy. I think that Parson setting up his own side is now inevitable: All the principles (except Stanley), with an army, at a capital site: Sizemore, Maggie, and Wanda (at least) will join Parson because of their conspiracy. Jack is uncertain, but based on his close association with Maggie and Wanda, I suspect that he is in on it as well.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:20 am 
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    starburst98 wrote:
    kagato23, parson has NO MOVE. he cannot change hexes, that is why he has to use the magic kingdom to cheat his way there.


    No, he no longer has zero move since he promoted himself to field unit. He's using the MK to cheat because it lets him move off turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:21 am 
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    Menlo Marseilles wrote:
    . . . to find some tools.

    Oh, holy heck! I never put this together! Does this mean that if a character has the name of a brand of tools, that's an indicator that (s)he is "attuned"?

    Hmmm . . .

    One of the founders of Dish Network is named Charlie Ergen. Coincidence?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:03 am 
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    Slately's comments seem to be a bit out of place here; with all the background we've gotten for Slately, it really did seem like he didn't want Tramennis as CWL, and didn't agree with him, and would rather have someone else, etc. And then in just two updates, he goes from disagreeing with near everything to suddenly believing that Tramennis is the CWL who he should have appointed in the first place?

    Ironically, this seems to be a rushed conversion. I'm tossing in another "Get on with it!" like zadcap.

    Spoiler: show
    Slately going to talk to Charlie, to get the necessary schmuckers to declare Tramennis Heir?
    :?:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:38 am 
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    Angband wrote:
    So why didn't they just use the spelled-up tower, the casters and all those archers to simply cleanse the airspace of GK units prior to flying the king out of the city?

    The spells in the tower, especially, will be lost if they have to abandon Spacerock.


    My thoughts exactly, and the most compelling explanation, I find, is so that GK still has some Archons left at the end of the battle :P

    Now, seriously, I don't doubt that Jetstone has the resources left to remove those archons (they are very fragile against arrows after all), but since the archons are stuck up there, Trem doesn't have to deal with them that urgently. So he chose a quick and safe exit for King Dad, and might yet deal with (some of) the archons later (there's a bounty on them) once Slately's safe.

    EarwaxRock wrote:
    One way or another, I can't help but think that Ossomer-thing's feelings will have a role to play in the coming battle. I wonder if decrypted can have a low enough loyalty level to rebel...


    It's been a tease for some time now. Yes, Ossomer is not as boring a character as he looks, all that doubt and shame just have to amount to something eventually.


    zadcap wrote:
    I love it, but to be honest, I am getting antsy at the amount of lead up. It's starting to have the opposite affect; For a while, it was cool, drawing tension, moving towards a Big Moment. But now, however, it's gone slightly too far, and now I am left with a feeling of, to quote Monty Python, "Get On With It!"


    You must be new here.

    FormicaArchonis wrote:
    Wow. I did NOT expect the king to be so, er, non-pigheaded and reasonable about this. Quite the surprise!


    Eh. There's a lotta hate for Slately for some reason. Really, he ain't that bad, people. Isn't and never was. He's just surprisingly human, attempting to vicariously overcome his shortcomings (ba-dum-tish) through the stature of his successors.

    DevilDan wrote:
    Finally, a glimmer of understanding?


    Of what, by whom :P

    Or well, not so happy-face- Ossomer's just been told by everyone he knows that he's useless. Gosh. Don't do it Ossomer, we all still love you!

    Smoker wrote:
    And lastly: Will Tramennis fight? I'm going to have to say yes, but I dont see him winning after GK has come so far. Does this mean we get a captured/decrypted Tramennis? Or does he jetpack away at the last moment...


    My stance on this is that the more competent people who are not Parson aligned the better, as, by now, you all know because I ranted about that repeatedly. So I'd rather not see Trem decrypted, but making his way out.

    Note that Trem no longer has the unspoken plan guarantee, btw. Even so, my guess is that Slately's exit is pretty safe (pending Parson's bit of trickery, of course, that can change everything), so Jetstone is safe, and GK will have to settle for just conquering Spacerock. Trem might get out, as indicated, on the jetpack.

    If Trem is captured, there's no reason to keep him alive, so being the nice person she is, Wanda will let Ossomer do the honours this time. Might make an interesting moment.

    kagato23 wrote:
    Parson and co have won the day, sure. But the portal is about to shut off. Going home is gonna be the long way. And both Charlie and Transylvito are coming at him. Stanley can't send help, Jillians rampage is keeping him occupied and just took out the forts closest to Parson and co. They can't stay where they are, they don't have the power to hold it and in a few turns everybody is coming to boop them up. They have to run. And they are going to be running for turns.


    Nice theory, as it keeps the pressure on GK. The other theory, with Wanda's own side, is nice too; Wanda's not committed to Stanley after all, but to Fate, which means whatever she feels like it should mean. She's a wildcard, so there's no way of knowing what she'll do.

    And the thing is, something's gotta give. The story cannot just be GK chugging along. The MK conspiracy cannot just go without a hitch.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:02 am 
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    I wonder if the healomancer's blue eyes make him a prince. Ace was spawned by Jetstone and he has white eyes. As far as I can tell, so far only the Jetstone royals have blue eyes.

    There are many things the airborne force can do against JS forces fleeing for the gate. The archons could mesmerise with their flash ability and Ossomer could do a suicide jump on top of his father or a caster. Parson could stock the archons with food that could act as missiles (coconuts, pineapples, walnuts, etc.) and have a more literal food fight.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:05 am 
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    Parson is about to run a train on the Spacerock bitches.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:10 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:

    And the thing is, something's gotta give. The story cannot just be GK chugging along. The MK conspiracy cannot just go without a hitch.

    Well first off, It is really beginning to look like book two is going to end with GK and Charlie at full odds with one another. And secondly, without a hitch? If it hadn't been the massive hitch of Jillian and Charlie ending their (GK's) turn early, Spacerock would already be dead.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:13 am 
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    Maybe I am choosing the easy path on this, but it looks to me like Ossomer will most likely react with anger to his fathers words, a real cain and abel kind of anger.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:15 am 
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    Algrokoz wrote:
    Well first off, It is really beginning to look like book two is going to end with GK and Charlie at full odds with one another. And secondly, without a hitch? If it hadn't been the massive hitch of Jillian and Charlie ending their (GK's) turn early, Spacerock would already be dead.


    Bygones are bygones; my point is, what will the next hitch be?

    Openly warring on Charlie is possible, but unlikely now. There will be a war against Charlie, but when that happens, Erfworld will have reached its final book.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:15 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Angband wrote:
    So why didn't they just use the spelled-up tower, the casters and all those archers to simply cleanse the airspace of GK units prior to flying the king out of the city?

    The spells in the tower, especially, will be lost if they have to abandon Spacerock.


    My thoughts exactly, and the most compelling explanation, I find, is so that GK still has some Archons left at the end of the battle :P

    Now, seriously, I don't doubt that Jetstone has the resources left to remove those archons (they are very fragile against arrows after all), but since the archons are stuck up there, Trem doesn't have to deal with them that urgently. So he chose a quick and safe exit for King Dad, and might yet deal with (some of) the archons later (there's a bounty on them) once Slately's safe.


    It probably makes sense to evacuate Slately before he goes after the Archons, but I'm extremely skeptical of the whole evacuation plan. Tram is saying he doesn't think he can hold Spacerock when his forces are concentrated, on turn, and Wanda is at her most vulnerable. If that's the case, how could he possibly defend Jetstone? Even if all his forces manage to disengage safely (and the Archons give GK some very effective scouts) and reach Jetstone, and even assuming Jetstone is a level 5 city as well, he'll still be even off the next time GK comes calling.

    It seems hard to believe that GK is in such an overwhelming position now, yet there will still be a chance to fight them later. And it redoubles my disbelief that no one on Erfworld other than Parson ever thought about what would happen if Wanda fell.

    -H

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:21 am 
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    Hatu wrote:
    I'm extremely skeptical of the whole evacuation plan. Tram is saying he doesn't think he can hold Spacerock when his forces are concentrated, on turn, and Wanda is at her most vulnerable. If that's the case, how could he possibly defend Jetstone?


    Fair point, and I agree. After all, when Wanda asked Parson to do the math for attacking Spacerock, waaaaay long ago in StupidWorld time, the odds were ... kinda paltry. In fact the odds were so bad, we were told, that making a rush attack against the tower was the best bet, and even that merely had like 70% or such. I forget the exact odds, even those were dependent on what casters were in the Tower.

    My take on this is to not trust the bracer to be consistent, because I suspect there really isn't any consistent algorithm behind the scenes that can calculate the odds. It's just drama.

    And another thing now is that Trem feels less confident about his own ability to crush the GK forces.

    PS:

    Hatu wrote:
    It seems hard to believe that GK is in such an overwhelming position now, yet there will still be a chance to fight them later. And it redoubles my disbelief that no one on Erfworld other than Parson ever thought about what would happen if Wanda fell.

    -H


    I approve entirely. Good to see I'm not the only one wondering why it is that Erfworlders must, essentially, be all incurious, all the time. You know what would actually happen if the mostest cleverest strategist (assuming such a thing exists, which is not the case) on Earth would be whisked away to some other magical universe? They'd get their boop croaked presto, that's what. Unless some locals grow pity on the poor simpleton, which is what our Stupidworld strategist would be for quite some time compared to the average native.

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    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:21 am 
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    So, it looks to me like Tram just reconnoitered in force (panel 4) and made an expeditious retreat (panel 5). At that point he judged, "No, not safe that way" and the plan is off. But the point is, the plan was sound. That it turned out not to work in the most fortunate way is nearly irrelevant.

    Does anyone see an alternate interpretation?

    As for dragging it out, do keep in mind that this is a graphic novel released in slow motion, not a webcomic. The pacing will be fine once you can peruse it as an archive or read it as a book.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:27 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    As for dragging it out, do keep in mind that this is a graphic novel released in slow motion, not a webcomic. The pacing will be fine once you can peruse it as an archive or read it as a book.


    :lol: That was my point, we've been having this discussion ever since I still had some natural teeth left.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:32 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    After all, when Wanda asked Parson to do the math for attacking Spacerock, waaaaay long ago in StupidWorld time, the odds were ... kinda paltry. In fact the odds were so bad, we were told, that making a rush attack against the tower was the best bet, and even that merely had like 70% or such. I forget the exact odds, even those were dependent on what casters were in the Tower.


    But that was including Jillian.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:34 am 
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    I interpret all the images in this installment as actually happening, but temporally after the final scenes with Slately and Ossomer. Here's what I take from the non-Ossomer panels:

    1. We see Slately exiting the tower gate. So, he is safe in the next hex, because a "Gate" is an exit from the city. That is, the Tower has a direct connection to the very back of the city. The 6th panel of Page 46 suggests otherwise, with several streets worth of buildings behind the tower. Still, I can't understand why Tramennis thinks exiting that way protects Slately from the airspace unless the tower gate exits the hex. If my reasoning here is correct, then none of GK's forces can now attack Slately, because their ranged attacks will stop at the edge of the hex, and they can't pursue until their turn. (There may be a chase later on, though.) So, continuation of the side is certain until GK's next turn. If Slately uses the jetpack to get to the old capital, they're safe and sound.

    2. Tramennis has opted to blockade the GK forces in the Atrium. This does not mean he has opted to leave Spacerock, but it still allows for a complete retreat. Tramennis was tactically clever here. He forced Wanda's hand by challenging GK in the Atrium, so that Wanda had to do her Wrequiem. Then, he blockaded them in the Atrium, opening them up to more arrows. (I sort of doubt we'll see arrows again, though. It'd be kind of boring, and sending all the archery along with Slately to take down fast fliers would be strategically more important.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:42 am 
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    teratorn wrote:
    But that was including Jillian.


    Right you are, but on the same page Parson comments that if Wanda and co. waited at the bridge, that large column (presumably the Jetstone one they flew over) would overrun and destroy them.

    So as far as I can tell, the story went like this: GK tricked Jetstone in sending their army away from the city, bypassed that army with a force that would have crushed the token defenses left at Spacerock ... wham Jillian's here ... change of plans, make a dash for the tower ... wham KW ... Jetstone-"hey it's our turn" brings back their army into the city while GK are sitting ducks ... wham Fall exploit - so now we should be seeing pretty much what would have happened if Wanda and Co. waited at the bridge, which by Parson's estimation, were poor odds.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:45 am 
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    Another line of thought: The Money Problem.

    Jetstone is in the position of having to maybe start disbanding forces to remain solvent. If they really ned to make their last stand in their old capital, they'll need some cash to beef up defenses. Is there any way around razing Spacerock? Preferably before GK gets in too many hits to reduce the value of the structures (I assume here that razing a city gets you cash by effectively selling structures back to the Titanic Ether whence they may be bought.)

    If Tramennis retreats immediately, he may also get a chance to blast away and maybe capture one of the archons by riding in himself (and maybe with Cubbins, the shockamancer) with the unipegataurs. This is where some Ossomer/Tramennis interaction could get really interesting. Maybe Ossomer will refuse to lead the archons, thereby handing them to his brother.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 53
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:59 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    :lol: That was my point, we've been having this discussion ever since I still had some natural teeth left.


    I was talking to the same people you were talking to.

    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    so now we should be seeing pretty much what would have happened if Wanda and Co. waited at the bridge, which by Parson's estimation, were poor odds.


    Only with GK inside the city. It's a bit different.


    The idea of resuming arrow barrage occurred to me; Wanda could start the rush now to avoid this case.

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